What happens when you let teens drive really fast cars

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Stuart
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Post by Stuart »

Dargos wrote:Can anyone explain to me why anyone needs an insanely overpowered car in the first place?
My experience is that people who come out with that line can't afford high-powered automobiles; as soon as they can, they change their tune.
Why have street legal cars capable of driving 200+mph?
OK, I drive a high-powered muscle car. Reasons why are severalfold. One is that, driven properly (big caveat there) such cars are much safer than underpowered vehicles. Look at it this way. If you're driving at Interstate speeds (65mph) and your car is designed around a maximum attainable performance of around 75 miles per our, your vehicle is operating right at the top of its performance envelope. There's virtually nothing left in hand for emergencies. Twice in the last six years I've got out of potentially lethal situations (both caused by somebody driving and speaking on a cell-phone but that's another story) bu accelerating out of that situation. My car is rated for a top speed of 163mph which means that at 65mph, virtually the whole of the car's performance envelope is available to me. Also, its brakes, steering, suspension, transmission etc are all optimized for very high speed driving so at lower speeds, they also have great resetves of performance for emergencies

Another reason is that there's a great deal of pride associated in taking a piece of machinery that requires skill and precision to drive properly and then driving it properly. In other words, not doing what the gene pool rejects in this thread did.

Another reason is that having high performance makes certain routine driving activities much safer. Case in point is entering an Interstate from a ramp. A car on the ramp is usually doing 30 - 40 mph, the traffic on the interstate is doing 65 - 75mph, possibly a lot faster. An underpowered vehicle accelerates so slowly that by the time its matched speeds, its running out of ramp room and has run out of options. In the same situation, for me accelerating from 35 to 75mph takes just a few feet when I have matched speeds, I have nearly all the ramp still in front of me. That gives me a lot of options to make a safe merge.

One drawback with driving muscle cars is that there are all too many men who are out driving their wife's minivans and who get the idea they still have to prove they have two testicles by overtaking me. I hate to think of the number of times I've been cruising dead on the 65mph speed limit (the comment made about experienced muscle car drivers being cautious and law-abiding is quite correct) and I've had a minivan desperately trying to do 66mph and swerving all over the road because in doing so the driver has pushed the vehicle beyond its design and safety limits.

In the case of this particular incident (its not an accident), we have a group of kids who simply had a vehicle they couldn't drive. They can ride in it, point it in various directions and change speed but they can't drive it any more than a passenger sitting in a jumbo jet can claim to be flying the aircraft. They simply didn't have the experience to drive that vehicle. That lack of experience was going to kill them sooner or later, all I can say is we should all be very pleased they did it when they just removed themselves from the gene pool, not when they took a few valuable genes with them.

Oh yes, and the parent's insurance company should pull their insurance cover. Any parent who can let an 18 year old kid drive a car like that is obviously too stupid to be allowed on the roads. But then an IQ test is, unfortunately, not part of the driving exam.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Stuart wrote:Another reason is that having high performance makes certain routine driving activities much safer. Case in point is entering an Interstate from a ramp. A car on the ramp is usually doing 30 - 40 mph, the traffic on the interstate is doing 65 - 75mph, possibly a lot faster. An underpowered vehicle accelerates so slowly that by the time its matched speeds, its running out of ramp room and has run out of options. In the same situation, for me accelerating from 35 to 75mph takes just a few feet when I have matched speeds, I have nearly all the ramp still in front of me. That gives me a lot of options to make a safe merge.
Also, in rural areas, if you have to pull out into the oncoming traffic lane to pass someone on a two-lane highway, it is really nice to have a few extra horses under the hood. Nobody likes looking at oncoming headlights.

Having said that, I personally think that all street cars should come with speed limiters restricting them to some sane velocity, and as tightly integrated with the car's electronics as possible to make it difficult to remove. Sure, some people will find a way to disable them anyway, but the occasional asshole who steals a car for a joyride certainly won't have time to do so, and most casual drivers won't bother with the time and expense.
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Post by Stuart »

Darth Wong wrote: Also, in rural areas, if you have to pull out into the oncoming traffic lane to pass someone on a two-lane highway, it is really nice to have a few extra horses under the hood. Nobody likes looking at oncoming headlights.
I agree, overtaking is one area where the extra performance from a decent engine is worth its weight in gold.
Having said that, I personally think that all street cars should come with speed limiters restricting them to some sane velocity, and as tightly integrated with the car's electronics as possible to make it difficult to remove. Sure, some people will find a way to disable them anyway, but the occasional asshole who steals a car for a joyride certainly won't have time to do so, and most casual drivers won't bother with the time and expense.
I'd express it differently; I'd suggest that all cars available to the average driver should have speed limiters installed. Drivers should have at least seven years experience under the belts and have to pass an advanced driving test before they are allowed to purchase and/or drive unlimited vehicles. I think the real problem isn't so much speed here though as the sheer youth and inexperience of the driver. Just driving around here, its apparent that drivers in that age bracket routinely ignore pretty well all traffic regulations and signposting - deliberately running red lights and stop signs is commonplace. I was on scene once (as a witness) when a kid driving a riced-up Toyota blew straight through a red light and side-impacted a sedan. The police officer attending informed the kid that he was being cited for reckless endangerment. The kid's reply "whatever" wasn't entirely helpful.

However, high-speed fatalities don't have to happen at high speed. We had one about a mile from where I live where the car in question (three dead) looked just like the one in this thread. The incident took place when it was doing 65mph - well within any electronically-limited speed. The catch was the speed limit there was 20mph for a very good reason - the road went through a classic dead man's curve. The kids on board simply didn't have the experience to recognize a dead man's curve or realize is significance for a front-wheel drive vehicle (or the skills to negotiate such a curve in a rear-wheel drive). 65 mph killed them as surely as 150 would have done.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

I really like my old firebird, it's heavy and slow compared to most sport cars today with it's measly 250 horsepower from a 5.7l engine... But damnit if it's not a great and comfortable cruiser, and I still accelerate like a rocket which is wonderfull for getting on the highway, my other car has like 80HP and it's bloody dangerous getting on the highway sometimes.

I wish I could convert my pontiac to run on something else than gas though.
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Post by Phantasee »

Stuart wrote:However, high-speed fatalities don't have to happen at high speed. We had one about a mile from where I live where the car in question (three dead) looked just like the one in this thread. The incident took place when it was doing 65mph - well within any electronically-limited speed. The catch was the speed limit there was 20mph for a very good reason - the road went through a classic dead man's curve. The kids on board simply didn't have the experience to recognize a dead man's curve or realize is significance for a front-wheel drive vehicle (or the skills to negotiate such a curve in a rear-wheel drive). 65 mph killed them as surely as 150 would have done.
Can you explain what a dead man's curve is, exactly? I'm actually more interested in the significance for a front wheel drive vs RWD vehicle (vs 4WD?). I've been wondering about that for a while now (since I drove a RWD pickup all summer for work, but drove a FWD Pontiac at home), but I'm not anxious to go and test it out and learn from experience...
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Phantasee wrote:Can you explain what a dead man's curve is, exactly? I'm actually more interested in the significance for a front wheel drive vs RWD vehicle (vs 4WD?). I've been wondering about that for a while now (since I drove a RWD pickup all summer for work, but drove a FWD Pontiac at home), but I'm not anxious to go and test it out and learn from experience...
It generally refers to an unexpected and/or deceptive curve in the road which sends people flying off the road to their deaths. A front wheel drive car that's going too fast will understeer and more or less plow nose first off the road. A RWD vehicle, depending on the skill of the driver will either make it through the curve, slide sideways off the road and crash, or spin totally out of control off the road and crash. A 4WD vehicle is most likely going to either plow straight off the road like a FWD car or slide sideways off the road, but a spinout isn't out of the question.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The most deadly dead man's curves are the ones which have a downhill slope to them, and which come after a long stretch of straight road. That way, you don't see it coming up because the crest of the road conceals the upcoming turn, and of course, a lot of people ignore signs and speed limits.

Mind you, counting on driving skills to save your bacon after hurtling into a dead man's curve at excessive speed is the height of foolishness ...
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Post by Stuart »

Phantasee wrote:Can you explain what a dead man's curve is, exactly? I'm actually more interested in the significance for a front wheel drive vs RWD vehicle (vs 4WD?). I've been wondering about that for a while now (since I drove a RWD pickup all summer for work, but drove a FWD Pontiac at home), but I'm not anxious to go and test it out and learn from experience...
A classic dead man's curve is one that tightens as the turn progresses. An unwary driver sees what appears to be a shallow curve and hits it at speed. Then, he finds he's moving far too fast for the later sections of the curve. Said inexperienced driver then takes his foot of the accelerator, the car goes off the road and he dies.

In a rear-wheel drive vehicle, an experienced driver takes his foot off the accelerator going into the curve then taps it as the curve starts to tighten. That causes the tail to slide out and lines the nose up with the exit from the curve. Do it right and you can go round a dead man's curve at a very high rate of speed. On the whole though, its much simpler and safer to obey the speed limit and not try to be flash.

In a front wheel drive vehicle, hittinga dead man's curve too fast means the driver completely loses control and heads off the curve into the trees. Hitting the accelerator half way around will cause the vehicle to spin (rear wheel drive vehicle are much more manoeuverable than front wheel drive provided the driver knows what he's doing. Note most police cars are rear-wheel drive) A four wheel drive is basically a front wheel drive with some added possibilities. Do a dead man's curve wrong in a four-wheel and you can get all four wheels working against each other at which point the car will not only spin but roll over.

So why do dead man's curves exist? Mainly because they were built at the time when front-wheel and four-wheel drive cars were unknown, every car was rear-wheel drive and people knew how to handle them. Back then, dead man's curve set-ups allowed high-speed curve taking by people who knew what they were doing (cops, emergency services etc). that isn't the case any more. Round here, the local authorities (town and state) are rebuilding roads to eliminate dead man's curves.

By the way, there's a good record "Dead Man's Curve" Look it up on Rhapsody.
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Stuart wrote:A classic dead man's curve is one that tightens as the turn progresses. An unwary driver sees what appears to be a shallow curve and hits it at speed. Then, he finds he's moving far too fast for the later sections of the curve. Said inexperienced driver then takes his foot of the accelerator, the car goes off the road and he dies.
A surprising number of highway off-ramps are like that.
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Stuart wrote:One drawback with driving muscle cars is that there are all too many men who are out driving their wife's minivans and who get the idea they still have to prove they have two testicles by overtaking me. I hate to think of the number of times I've been cruising dead on the 65mph speed limit (the comment made about experienced muscle car drivers being cautious and law-abiding is quite correct) and I've had a minivan desperately trying to do 66mph and swerving all over the road because in doing so the driver has pushed the vehicle beyond its design and safety limits.
As soon as I bought my Mustang GT, I started driving like a grandmother - speed limit all the time, relaxed, not trying to beat anyone off the green light - for two reasons: 1) I own this car; if I wreck it, mommy and daddy aren't going to buy me another one, and 2) I realized I have nothing to prove - that was an age and maturity thing (I bought the Mustang when I was 26, not when I was 18).

That being said, minivans, BMWs, and the ever-present Microsofties are the bane of my existence when I drive the Mustang, because they all think they have something to prove.
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Post by Phantasee »

I've noticed a trend (2 is a coincidence, 3 is a trend) lately. People are driving like assholes. Not even poor driving, they just aren't being courteous. And the ones who are most often doing this are the ones driving lame cars (ie not a flash ride). Like when you're trying to get somewhere, today, and the guy ahead of you is doing 20 under the limit? Change lanes and go around, right? But the dude next to you is kind of in the way, so you signal, right? Except now he sees you signalling your intention to change lanes, and instead of backing off to let you in, he accelerates to block you so you can't get ahead of him. Does he continue at a higher speed, allowing you to at least get behind him? No, he just stays there, until finally (if you're lucky) the guy ahead of you takes a left or otherwise gets out of the way. Fuckers.

And that's not all they do of course, I'm sure everyone has a story of someone like that (or, you know. several dozen someones).

At least I'm not seeing these guys much now that there's 4 feet of snow outside. I think they all ended up in the ditch (I hope they did).
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Post by Darth Wong »

I've been driving for 20 years, and people have always done that.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Yes thats pretty common. Today we had a 10 car queue for 30 kilometes thanks to a person who insisted on driving 70 on an 80kph road and nobody could get past him. It was oh so lovely to drive behind 8 or so cars in this weather, takes about 5 seconds for your window to be caked in mud. After he left though, everyone sped up to a 100 as if to make up for lost time.
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Post by phongn »

Stuart wrote:However, high-speed fatalities don't have to happen at high speed. We had one about a mile from where I live where the car in question (three dead) looked just like the one in this thread. The incident took place when it was doing 65mph - well within any electronically-limited speed. The catch was the speed limit there was 20mph for a very good reason - the road went through a classic dead man's curve. The kids on board simply didn't have the experience to recognize a dead man's curve or realize is significance for a front-wheel drive vehicle (or the skills to negotiate such a curve in a rear-wheel drive). 65 mph killed them as surely as 150 would have done.
That reminds me an incident a couple years ago - some kids were driving 80+ on a road speed limited at 40 mph and in a curve with plenty of trees and houses around. Fools apparently forgot or didn't know that there was a traffic light at the end and rammed a dump truck, completely ripping off the truck's rear axle. There wasn't much left of the car.
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Post by aerius »

One of the best car accidents I can remember happened on Fork of the Credit Road when I was still in high school. This is a scenic road with lots of tight variable radius turns, blind corners, elevation changes, sharp rolling hills and other such fun stuff. In other words, lots of fun stuff that'll quickly get an inexperienced driver killed. The speed limit as I recall ranges from 15-60km/h, and for good reason.

Anyway, a bunch of dumb teens decided to find out if they could indeed catch air off the sharp rolling hills, so they took a car and drove faster & faster on the roller coaster section until the car got airborne. So far, so good, but being a bunch of dumb teens they decided to push their luck and hit the rollers at well over 120km/h, they launched off the hill, caught airtime, and then nosed in and crashed hard. I don't remember how many people were killed or if there were any survivors, but the car was a complete wreck and accident was all over the news for a while.
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Post by brianeyci »

The problem is driving a car is associated with masculinity and coming of age. Don't drive a car? You're a fucking failure. No car? How to pick up trashy dates or one night stands? No car? How to go shopping? :roll:

It's actually pretty good that I can't drive a car due to medical reasons. There's nothing visibly wrong with me, so if a girl who asks me if I drive a car is stupid enough to think I'm not a man, just because I can't lug around a few tons of steel, well she can fuck off.

I can always give the insurance excuse too, which weeds out gold diggers. But lately I've been trying, I don't like driving.
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Darth Wong wrote: A surprising number of highway off-ramps are like that.
You’d love the ones in Philadelphia that are like that… and then end at stoplights which cause traffic to back up onto the ramp! The mere 300ft (long left hand on-ramps on I-76 are even better though. But that’s all the price of packing highway systems into cities which got built first. I’d also suspect part of the reason for tightening off-ramps is to FORCE people to slow down so that idiots down fly onto the surface streets at 70mph.
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Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:A surprising number of highway off-ramps are like that.
You’d love the ones in Philadelphia that are like that… and then end at stoplights which cause traffic to back up onto the ramp!
Was someone deliberately trying to cause problems when he designed that?
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Post by Phantasee »

brianeyci wrote:The problem is driving a car is associated with masculinity and coming of age. Don't drive a car? You're a fucking failure. No car? How to pick up trashy dates or one night stands? No car? How to go shopping? :roll:

It's actually pretty good that I can't drive a car due to medical reasons. There's nothing visibly wrong with me, so if a girl who asks me if I drive a car is stupid enough to think I'm not a man, just because I can't lug around a few tons of steel, well she can fuck off.

I can always give the insurance excuse too, which weeds out gold diggers. But lately I've been trying, I don't like driving.
Sounds more like sour grapes, buddy. I don't understand the link between a trashy date and a car, though. All the trashy dates I can think of took the fucking bus :wink:
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Post by Master of Cards »

Darth Wong wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:A surprising number of highway off-ramps are like that.
You’d love the ones in Philadelphia that are like that… and then end at stoplights which cause traffic to back up onto the ramp!
Was someone deliberately trying to cause problems when he designed that?
Oh you have never been to St Louis, the I-70 ramps are basically right angles and are very tight turns, half the radial distance of the other ramps in the areas.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Darth Wong wrote: Was someone deliberately trying to cause problems when he designed that?
I think so. In an interview one of the designers of the I-76 system said if you don’t like it, don’t drive it.
At this particular off ramp, you’ve got about 500-600ft from the lane splitting away to the traffic light; thankfully your view of the entire thing is unobstructed, though it does have a pretty significant downhill grade. Some of the on ramps have 70ft radius turns and merge lanes about five car lengths long.
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Post by Shinova »

In general East coast highways are older than west coast ones, so if you go father west and towards Los Angeles, for example, you'll find better highways that are newer and more sensibly-built.

For example, all on-ramps and off-ramps in Los Angeles freeways are ALWAYS on the right hand-side. The left-hand lane is always the fast lane. East coast highways can exit or enter on either direction, and thus more chance of an accident.
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Stuart wrote:
A classic dead man's curve is one that tightens as the turn progresses. An unwary driver sees what appears to be a shallow curve and hits it at speed. Then, he finds he's moving far too fast for the later sections of the curve. Said inexperienced driver then takes his foot of the accelerator, the car goes off the road and he dies.

In a rear-wheel drive vehicle, an experienced driver takes his foot off the accelerator going into the curve then taps it as the curve starts to tighten. That causes the tail to slide out and lines the nose up with the exit from the curve. Do it right and you can go round a dead man's curve at a very high rate of speed. On the whole though, its much simpler and safer to obey the speed limit and not try to be flash.
On a bike, you just lean in harder and roll on the gas.

There's a perfectly vicious decreasing-radius curve up on the Angeles Crest that's a real bastard to nail at speed, even though I know it's there...
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Post by Kanastrous »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: A surprising number of highway off-ramps are like that.
You’d love the ones in Philadelphia that are like that… and then end at stoplights which cause traffic to back up onto the ramp! The mere 300ft (long left hand on-ramps on I-76 are even better though. But that’s all the price of packing highway systems into cities which got built first. I’d also suspect part of the reason for tightening off-ramps is to FORCE people to slow down so that idiots down fly onto the surface streets at 70mph.
Along the 110 freeway (the oldest of the LA freeways) the entry ramps are insanely short, so you basically have to floor it to even be up to merging speed by the time you reach the end of the ramp. And of course exiting is the reverse; it's like playing carrier-pilot with your car.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Stuart's case for high performance cars actually makes a lot of sense; it's why I want a Crown Vic with a V-8; when I do manage to get my own car.
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