Obama to kill Moon mission?

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lukexcom
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Re: Obama to kill Moon mission?

Post by lukexcom »

Adrian Laguna wrote:If all Broomstick's sister did was wear bracelets and attend marches, how would the government know about it? They don't keep records of everyone who goes to marches or gets symbolic bracelets. If the government doesn't know about it, then it would not affect her ability to get a security clearance. For all we know there are people with the highest clearance who were at some point involved in "subersive" activities, but nobody knows about it because they and their cohorts have kept their mouths shut.
At that point it depends on the clearance level you're aspiring to (which directly determines the depth, rigor, and effort of the investigation), what information you volunteer, and what others volunteer. The Department of Defense security clearance application process starts with a massive, detailed questionnaire form, and can get more grueling from there.

As an example, some of the steps in obtaining Dept. of Defense clearances at the Top Secret level, whether with or without project-specific SCI or SAP or any other "modifiers", tend to involve not only a polygraph examination, but also a full Single Scope Background Investigation. While filling out the application, you provide many references, they show up at their residences and ask questions, and maybe even ask for further references. So what an applicant must consider is, how much should they volunteer out, and how much will their references (and references of the references if need be) tell the investigators. That's a scenario straight out of game theory.

It's absolutely true that if you, as an applicant for a security clearance, have sufficiently strong ties with anyone else that could be potentially interviewed regarding your past that everyone keeps a straight, synchronized story and doesn't reveal anything, AND there is no contrary evidence to put any statements into question (whether a police report or even an college disciplinary report, whatever the investigators can get their hands on), then you'll probably be cleared if there aren't any other unrelated issues (specks on a financial record, foreign influence, criminal record, etc.). Not being able to explain or mitigate why their evidence contradicts your word is also a denial as it's seen as not being able to prove your own trustworthiness.

Obviously, if there are gaps or conflicts between stories, then things get interesting. But quite a few applicants simply take the easy way out and volunteer a lot of information right off the bat. Especially looking over the guidelines, it may be more advantageous to just tell it all, instead of actively hiding or falsifying information, which, if discovered, is an automatic denial, and said falsification will be taken into consideration during any other security clearance investigations for the rest of the applicant's life, usually resulting in a denial of those as well.

If the offense is severe enough, and there are no or insufficient mitigating circumstances (as defined by the adjudicating guidelines), or even if there's any question in regards to national security and/or concerns of trust, then there will be a denial anyway. Many times there's simply no way around it: either you come clean and are denied right off the bat, or you falsify information, and the as the hidden information gets more serious and/or extensive, the higher the chance of you being discovered and denied. The cost of choosing to falsify information is extremely high in that, if discovered, it will be one additional (and very serious) impediment to future security clearance applications.

Perusing through a list of cases regarding civilian-contractor security clearance decisions, there are cases where clearances were denied for seemingly light activities, or even cases that seem that the applicant did literally nothing wrong but everything as best as he could, while there are cases where people who have committed some serious drug and alcohol-related felonies and yet were granted clearances, usually by the applicants being able to fulfill all applicable mitigating circumstances.
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Re: Obama to kill Moon mission?

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

"Everything as best he could"? He defaulted on 2 of 16 loans and the rest are being deferred; the State even had to garnish his wages. How often do people get offered some Jack on Ice or some China White for secrets, compared to people literally volunteering if they can get cash to pay off their bad habits (which previously they did on credit and loans).
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Re: Obama to kill Moon mission?

Post by Broomstick »

lukexcom wrote: The cost of choosing to falsify information is extremely high in that, if discovered, it will be one additional (and very serious) impediment to future security clearance applications.
For the background check I recently underwent in my Fed job app it was made very clear, repeatedly, that ANY falsification was grounds for felony jail time, not just a slap on the wrist or denial of future clearances.
Perusing through a list of cases regarding civilian-contractor security clearance decisions, there are cases where clearances were denied for seemingly light activities, or even cases that seem that the applicant did literally nothing wrong but everything as best as he could, while there are cases where people who have committed some serious drug and alcohol-related felonies and yet were granted clearances, usually by the applicants being able to fulfill all applicable mitigating circumstances.
I suspect that a lot of the instances where people had black marks such as drug and alcohol violations but still got clearances were also related to them being honest and up front about disclosing them. If you truthfully answer about no-so-nice aspects of your past you show yourself to have a certain integrity. That up front honesty is part of the "mitigating circumstances" package. Other factors might be length of time since the offense and conduct since it occurred. Someone with a DUI at 16 who is now 30 and can demonstrate sobriety since then, has no other violations, and is willing to submit to random drug tests may well be seen as reformed and not a risk - not that you should take that example as gospel, it's just a thought about what might get someone a clearance despite that violation.

One thing is for sure - lying about ANYTHING, even minimizing something rather than outright denial, will hurt you bad during a background/security check. Better to be denied for being honest than denied for being dishonest.
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Re: Obama to kill Moon mission?

Post by Lonestar »

Adrian Laguna wrote:If all Broomstick's sister did was wear bracelets and attend marches, how would the government know about it? They don't keep records of everyone who goes to marches or gets symbolic bracelets. If the government doesn't know about it, then it would not affect her ability to get a security clearance. For all we know there are people with the highest clearance who were at some point involved in "subersive" activities, but nobody knows about it because they and their cohorts have kept their mouths shut.
It's all about classification levels. If she was just Public Trust or Secret...or even "just" Top Secret, then there's a good chance that it ouldn't have mattered. Anything that requires to be read into SCI or a poly is a exhaustive background search, and you can get false readings on a poly just from the prior-protesting stuff.
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Re: Obama to kill Moon mission?

Post by Broomstick »

Let's see... they interviewed my sister, her entire immediate family back to grandparents, surviving aunts and uncles, cousins (some of whom were not happy about it and gave us an earful), her husband's family the same, interviewed her 14 year old sister, complete school records back to kindergarten, her eldest sister, her eldest sister's political connections (eldest sister being VERY active in politics, protests, etc.), her first husband, his family, his contacts, wanted any information we could give them on the Russian side of the family (which wasn't much, as they were wiped out during WWII but they wanted names and villages anyway)... if she had to take a polygraph I don't know and maybe she wasn't supposed to say, but the complete process took well over a year. It sure sounds like a VERY extensive background check to me.

We're getting quite off the OP here, but my sister - hell, the whole damn family - was quite thoroughly put through the wringer. As I said, I have no clue what level she was being cleared for because, like a good little citizen, she never talked about it. And still won't. So some of this is pointless hot air because some of the questions brought up, there is simply no way to get answers for them. Clearly, this wasn't a cursory background check. Equally clearly, she wasn't working on the Manhattan project, either - but there's a lot of territory between those two extremes.

As for false readings on a poly - well, if she was truthful - yes, I wore a POW bracelet and went on an anti-draft march in spring of 1970 or whatever - then there is much less chance of a false reading, isn't there? Remember, the Viet Nam era stuff she did was 15 years in the past when she applied, it's not like there was nothing else to look at in her life. Wanting to end a war or supporting POW's is not the same as advocating violent (or even peaceful) overthrow of the government. It boggles my mind that some of you seem to have trouble understanding that.

Anyhow - whenever I've done or said something that prompted someone to say "Oh --- be careful! The government will start a file on you!" I've always laughed because there's BEEN a file on me since my sister worked for the DoD! Even if there wasn't, there would be one because post 9/11 they investigated ALL civilian pilots in the US. I stopped being afraid of such things a long, long time ago.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: Obama to kill Moon mission?

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

hongi wrote:This may not be relevant to what Obama's administration is planning (it seems like he's ruminating strictly to those rockets, not the whole organisation shebang) but I don't like the idea of a military space organisation replacing NASA.The military and the civilian programs have different interests and different goals. Will a new military organisation fund research for the sake of research e.g. Hubble? Will it share this information with the public, or heck, other national space programs?
My main concern is that a military space organization's funding would be easier to kill than NASA's is. Yes, NASA funding tends to be the first on the chopping block when an administration wants to free up money for welfare, education, and public works stuff . . . but the military also tends to experience deep cuts. NASA has a very vocal advocacy that may evaporate if it loses its scientific and exploration focus and becomes part of the military, and thus, part of the militarization of space that those same advocates would very much like to avoid.

So to sum up my concern, breaking the barrier between NASA and the Pentagon seems like a good way to kill NASA without nearly as much public outcry.
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