EU, US accuse China of "steel dumping"

[ray245]

Because it will hurt the rest of us and they will hurt themselves in the long run. There are simply too many of them for it to work.

Yes, many problems have already revealed during the industrialization in China, but along with whatever "revolution" or "change", there will be pain. Isn't it unfair trying to keep the whole country's people stay poor in order to make them continue providing resources to others?

It's not about the resources they provide to us. It's about the resources they would consume in becoming like us.

If there were fewer of them this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

On a related note, we get a lot of low-quality cheap stuff from them at the expense of our own industry. I don't think that's a good thing.

Even then, China is actually taking steps to ensure decrease the size of their population through birth control policies.

[AniThyng]

On a related note, we get a lot of low-quality cheap stuff from them at the expense of our own industry. I don't think that's a good thing.

Now there's a thought - if all these "low quality cheap stuff" was made in America instead, would it actually mean that it would be "high quality expensive stuff" or "high quality cheap stuff" or "low quality cheap stuff but made in USA"? And what are the implications for the American middle class and what they can afford to buy?

[Ryan Thunder]

On a related note, we get a lot of low-quality cheap stuff from them at the expense of our own industry. I don't think that's a good thing.

Now there's a thought - if all these "low quality cheap stuff" was made in America instead, would it actually mean that it would be "high quality expensive stuff" or "high quality cheap stuff" or "low quality cheap stuff but made in USA"? And what are the implications for the American middle class and what they can afford to buy?

It'd be local, and people would have to make better use of what they buy rather than simply replacing it so often. I imagine that would be better than sending billions of dollars overseas to get what amounts to disposable stuff.

[K. A. Pital]

There are simply too many of them for it to work.

That's bullshit. No one is saying their standards should be raised to the First World, but why not have them all living in moderate Second World standards, say, like those of the late USSR (and probably superior considering tech advances)? Would that bother you so much? Why?

[Ryan Thunder]

There are simply too many of them for it to work.

That's bullshit. No one is saying their standards should be raised to the First World, but why not have them all living in moderate Second World standards, say, like those of the late USSR (and probably superior considering tech advances)? Would that bother you so much? Why?

An increase in the standard of living implies an increase in consumption of energy, which implies an increase in power plant construction, which for China means more coal power plants. They already have towns that look like something out of fucking Warhammer 40K, with ashes blowing around in the streets like dust.

Do you really think it'd be acceptable to have more of that, just so they can increase their standard of living? There are more than a billion of them to our few hundred millions. The pollution they produce is going to skyrocket to totally unmanageable levels if they go forward with this, and they're going to fuck us all over, including themselves, and including you too. Particularly so if you live near a shoreline...

[K. A. Pital]

An increase in the standard of living implies an increase in consumption of energy, which implies an increase in power plant construction, which for China means more coal power plants.

How about nuclear powerplants?

Do you really think it'd be acceptable to have more of that, just so they can increase their standard of living? There are more than a billion of them to our few hundred millions.

The First World, in total, does constitute close to a billion men. I would not find it in any way unfair if their life standard decreases through a peaceful economic fashion while China's life standard rises. Sorry, but "plight of the First World" sounds like bullshit to me.

The pollution they produce is going to skyrocket to totally unmanageable levels if they go forward with this

The pollution is manageable. Unless it renders Earth uninhabitable as opposed to slightly raises costs of living for the Chinese, I see no reason not to proceed.

they're going to fuck us all over, including themselves, and including you too. Particularly so if you live near a shoreline...

No, I don't. I live in a deeply continental industrial city with extremely toxic industries. The closure of these industries in the 1990s brought death to many more people than they did when operating at full power, because crime and poverty are a greater problem than ecology.

[Norseman]

Also I should throw in that worrying about the environment is a luxury for the rich, the richer a country becomes the more environmentally friendly it becomes. Thus if you want the Chinese to pollute less you need them to become rich enough to care about their environment.

[Guardsman Bass]

An increase in the standard of living implies an increase in consumption of energy, which implies an increase in power plant construction, which for China means more coal power plants.

How about nuclear powerplants?

Coal is still their main source of power, and at the rate at which they are building coal plants, will likely be their main source of power into the foreseeable future.

Do you really think it'd be acceptable to have more of that, just so they can increase their standard of living? There are more than a billion of them to our few hundred millions.

The First World, in total, does constitute close to a billion men. I would not find it in any way unfair if their life standard decreases through a peaceful economic fashion while China's life standard rises. Sorry, but "plight of the First World" sounds like bullshit to me.

This is a bit of a non-issue. What's going to happen (barring some type of economic collapse) is that the Chinese, with increased buying power, will probably drive the prices of the various inputs that go into things like cars and appliances through the roof for everyone, at which point everyone is forced to buy some type of substitute or cheaper version of stuff that doesn't use as many of said inputs as the previous thing.

It's not like you can "transfer" standard of living, since that is ultimately based in productivity.

The pollution they produce is going to skyrocket to totally unmanageable levels if they go forward with this

The pollution is manageable. Unless it renders Earth uninhabitable as opposed to slightly raises costs of living for the Chinese, I see no reason not to proceed.

I'm assuming he's talking about CO2. There's quite a range between "uninhabitable earth" and "slightly raised cost of living" that involves extremely negative consequences for everyone with the significantly raised CO2 levels that the Chinese are probably going to create with their current energy program. It's not just sea levels, either; there are fun things like mega-droughts, shifts in rainfall, and so forth probably waiting in the wing.

they're going to fuck us all over, including themselves, and including you too. Particularly so if you live near a shoreline...

No, I don't. I live in a deeply continental industrial city with extremely toxic industries. The closure of these industries in the 1990s brought death to many more people than they did when operating at full power, because crime and poverty are a greater problem than ecology.

[/quote]

I'm sure the Mayans and Easter Islanders thought something similar.

[K. A. Pital]

Coal is still their main source of power, and at the rate at which they are building coal plants, will likely be their main source of power into the foreseeable future.

It will remain such forever even if they don't industrialize beyond what they have now. Unless you are wishing nuclear destruction of China or some other democide to strike that nation, those coal plants have only one way of stopping operation - being slowly replaced by nuclear in many decades. The problem has no peaceful solution other than allowing China to industrialize and slowly upgrade their energy.

What's going to happen (barring some type of economic collapse) is that the Chinese, with increased buying power, will probably drive the prices of the various inputs that go into things like cars and appliances through the roof for everyone, at which point everyone is forced to buy some type of substitute or cheaper version of stuff that doesn't use as many of said inputs as the previous thing.

It's not like you can "transfer" standard of living, since that is ultimately based in productivity.

Productivity depends on industrialization far more than on the human. A machine operator of any nationality would be more productive than a peasant of likewise any nationality. Industrialization is a sort of transfer, because the more human pool is industrialized, the cheaper industrial products become and it will depress life standard in places where it was artificially raised through the means of unequal exchange, prior historical opression or extortion, capital flight or otherwise.

The Chinese will not drive the prices "through the roof" - more likely they will depress the industrial product prices like they do now, which would be forcing the West either to take the losses incurred by administratively limiting competition, or drive the life standard down by lowering wages.

In any case that's the same thing - there would be a re-distribution of wealth. Relative wealth of the First World will fall, whether through rising prices or falling wages.

It's not just sea levels, either; there are fun things like mega-droughts, shifts in rainfall, and so forth probably waiting in the wing.

That's extremely rich coming from a citizen of a nation that was, and remains, the largest cause of such climatic changes. "Hee-haw, I industrialized! Everyone else has to wait in poverty, because of mega draughts and such." I doubt such an approach would yield any positive results whatsoever, both diplomatically and economically.

I'm sure the Mayans and Easter Islanders thought something similar.

Yeah, let's compare a pre-industrial isolated civilization with the modern industrial society! Quick! Industry is doom! Back to the luddite shelters, these factories you are building are in fact stone idols! Seriously, that ugly and stupid luddite strawman was worse than I could ever expect from you.

I guess your nations should have never crawled out of the Dark Ages then, them forests would've stayed greener. That's the prime example of hypocrisy.

[mr friendly guy]

A few thoughts.

As mentioned earlier by Stas and myself (with articles linked, did any one even read them?), China is going to increase nuclear production, which will take some of the load off coal for their energy needs. I think long term the world needs to go more nuclear, and by then we wouldn't be having this discussion about China's energy consumption.

In the shorter term they are building more efficient coal plants with the government requiring companies to retire an older inefficient coal plant for each new one they build according to the article.

[Ryan Thunder]

Coal is still their main source of power, and at the rate at which they are building coal plants, will likely be their main source of power into the foreseeable future.

It will remain such forever even if they don't industrialize beyond what they have now. Unless you are wishing nuclear destruction of China or some other democide to strike that nation, those coal plants have only one way of stopping operation - being slowly replaced by nuclear in many decades. The problem has no peaceful solution other than allowing China to industrialize and slowly upgrade their energy.

Lowering. their. fucking. birthrate. like the rest of us have. In doing so they can lower their population to manageable levels.

But I guess that's a long term solution that won't fuck over my lifestyle, so maybe its not the best solution.

What's going to happen (barring some type of economic collapse) is that the Chinese, with increased buying power, will probably drive the prices of the various inputs that go into things like cars and appliances through the roof for everyone, at which point everyone is forced to buy some type of substitute or cheaper version of stuff that doesn't use as many of said inputs as the previous thing.

It's not like you can "transfer" standard of living, since that is ultimately based in productivity.

Productivity depends on industrialization far more than on the human. A machine operator of any nationality would be more productive than a peasant of likewise any nationality. Industrialization is a sort of transfer, because the more human pool is industrialized, the cheaper industrial products become and it will depress life standard in places where it was artificially raised through the means of unequal exchange, prior historical opression or extortion, capital flight or otherwise.

The Chinese will not drive the prices "through the roof" - more likely they will depress the industrial product prices like they do now, which would be forcing the West either to take the losses incurred by administratively limiting competition, or drive the life standard down by lowering wages.

In any case that's the same thing - there would be a re-distribution of wealth. Relative wealth of the First World will fall, whether through rising prices or falling wages.

Ah, so it boils down to envy then and a desire to stick it to us for being so rich. Well, fuck you, too, Stas, I thought you were better than that.

It's not just sea levels, either; there are fun things like mega-droughts, shifts in rainfall, and so forth probably waiting in the wing.

That's extremely rich coming from a citizen of a nation that was, and remains, the largest cause of such climatic changes. "Hee-haw, I industrialized! Everyone else has to wait in poverty, because of mega draughts and such." I doubt such an approach would yield any positive results whatsoever, both diplomatically and economically.

Gee, maybe we didn't know any better, you prick. Unfortunately the rest of you have no such excuse.

[fgalkin]

Lowering. their. fucking. birthrate. like the rest of us have. In doing so they can lower their population to manageable levels.

But I guess that's a long term solution that won't fuck over my lifestyle, so maybe its not the best solution.

They ARE doing that, you dull-witted nincompoop. To the point of giving their citizens forced abortions.

Ah, so it boils down to envy then and a desire to stick it to us for being so rich. Well, fuck you, too, Stas, I thought you were better than that.

No, it is your post that is essentially saying "I want my toys no matter what, and no one can take them from me, waaah!".

Gee, maybe we didn't know any better, you prick. Unfortunately the rest of you have no such excuse.

Didn't know any better? You mean, like, every single description or depiction of Victorian London mentioning the haze of smog? Or the English acts trying to reduce it going all the way back to the Middle Ages?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Shroom Man 777]

I am sure Ryan was one of those people who had apoplectic fits when Barack Obama talked about "spreading the wealth around". Because it is wrong to cause minor inconveniences in the lifestyles of the relatively rich and prosperous to merely slightly better the lives of shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation. It is just not ethical.

Because the relatively rich and prosperous are white mangs, while the shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation are one billion (slant-eyed yellow) chinamen.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I am sure Ryan was one of those people who had apoplectic fits when Barack Obama talked about "spreading the wealth around". Because it is wrong to cause minor inconveniences in the lifestyles of the relatively rich and prosperous to merely slightly better the lives of shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation. It is just not ethical.

Because the relatively rich and prosperous are white mangs, while the shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation are one billion (slant-eyed yellow) chinamen.

Just remember that these chinamen are happily encroaching on the Spratly islands, which Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam etc. has some claim on.

[ray245]

I am sure Ryan was one of those people who had apoplectic fits when Barack Obama talked about "spreading the wealth around". Because it is wrong to cause minor inconveniences in the lifestyles of the relatively rich and prosperous to merely slightly better the lives of shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation. It is just not ethical.

Because the relatively rich and prosperous are white mangs, while the shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation are one billion (slant-eyed yellow) chinamen.

Just remember that these chinamen are happily encroaching on the Spratly islands, which Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam etc. has some claim on.

What does that has to do with the current discussion? It seems like you are just trying to be anti-China for the sake of being anti-China.

Shroom was talking the general idea that people living in third world has a right to raise their living standards just like everyone else.

[AniThyng]

I am sure Ryan was one of those people who had apoplectic fits when Barack Obama talked about "spreading the wealth around". Because it is wrong to cause minor inconveniences in the lifestyles of the relatively rich and prosperous to merely slightly better the lives of shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation. It is just not ethical.

Because the relatively rich and prosperous are white mangs, while the shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation are one billion (slant-eyed yellow) chinamen.

Just remember that these chinamen are happily encroaching on the Spratly islands, which Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam etc. has some claim on.

Be that as it may, Malaysia and Vietnam to a certain extent are as much as China also industrializing countries that can have the same basic criticism directed at them - being beneficiaries of outsourcing, cutting down rain forests for development and logging - and unlike china, Malaysia's natural mineral wealth was certainly used to the great benefit of the British Empire...

And it's not like regional governments are as afraid of China as the West seems to be. You'd think they are the ones trying to claim the Spratly's sometimes, the way the rethoric goes. Though I think it seems Singapore is trying to play both sides?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Be that as it may, Malaysia and Vietnam to a certain extent are as much as China also industrializing countries that can have the same basic criticism directed at them - being beneficiaries of outsourcing, cutting down rain forests for development and logging - and unlike china, Malaysia's natural mineral wealth was certainly used to the great benefit of the British Empire...

And it's not like regional governments are as afraid of China as the West seems to be. You'd think they are the ones trying to claim the Spratly's sometimes, the way the rethoric goes. Though I think it seems Singapore is trying to play both sides?

My suspicion is that the chief intention of the Singapore Government is to prevent the ever occurrence of a Kra Canal. Notice that the Chinese have not talked about it for years since ... about 5 years ago? So they cozy up with the Chinese, especially after that idiot Lee Hsien Loong visited Taiwan against the advice of many within the foreign ministry establishment prior to his proclamation as PM.

As for the Spratlys, the Chinese have built up over the years numerous installations. There is a reason why your new Scorpene submarines are deployed on a naval base facing the Spratlys. I also remember reading somewhere that there were numerous run-ins between some Filipino ships and Chinese ships over the last few years.

Everyone in SEA plays both sides of the coin. Some more so, some less so. Singapore leans very strongly towards the US, while it sucks up to the Chinese like nothing. Malaysia straddles both sides. Everyone in the business remembers that China did lord over SEA under.. I forgot which Empire and I don't think anyone wants it to happen again. Besides, playing both sides yields more benefits than siding altogether with one side.

[Ryan Thunder]

Lowering. their. fucking. birthrate. like the rest of us have. In doing so they can lower their population to manageable levels.

But I guess that's a long term solution that won't fuck over my lifestyle, so maybe its not the best solution.

They ARE doing that, you dull-witted nincompoop. To the point of giving their citizens forced abortions.

And yet everybody seems to want them to go industrialize right now when there are still more than a billion of them, for great justice. More like for maximum First World fuck up.

Ah, so it boils down to envy then and a desire to stick it to us for being so rich. Well, fuck you, too, Stas, I thought you were better than that.

No, it is your post that is essentially saying "I want my toys no matter what, and no one can take them from me, waaah!".

Yes, because I fucking earned those toys.

Gee, maybe we didn't know any better, you prick. Unfortunately the rest of you have no such excuse.

Didn't know any better? You mean, like, every single description or depiction of Victorian London mentioning the haze of smog? Or the English acts trying to reduce it going all the way back to the Middle Ages?

These are the same people who took centuries to figure out that wallowing in their own (and others) shit was a bad idea.

I am sure Ryan was one of those people who had apoplectic fits when Barack Obama talked about "spreading the wealth around". Because it is wrong to cause minor inconveniences in the lifestyles of the relatively rich and prosperous to merely slightly better the lives of shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation. It is just not ethical.

This is nothing like that. At all.

This is a family with parents who have had far too many children whining that they can't afford to live like the family with the same income who lives down the street with a single child, and then demanding that the smaller family give it up for them.

Because the relatively rich and prosperous are white mangs, while the shitpieces living in squalor and deprivation are one billion (slant-eyed yellow) chinamen.

Oh that's a good strawman. Whee, I'm a racist now if I don't want to significantly reduce my standard of living to accomodate a billion people who act as a bloc and are run by incompetent morons who I don't trust! Yay!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What does that has to do with the current discussion? It seems like you are just trying to be anti-China for the sake of being anti-China.

Shroom was talking the general idea that people living in third world has a right to raise their living standards just like everyone else.

You fucking have no idea about the geopolitical issues in this region do you? What right does China, with its booming industrial power, any right to swag it around like it owns the neighbourhood? Do you have any idea why SEA countries want American attention?

Make no mistake, the Chinese industrialisation and their claim to regional authority is intricately entwined and it is perfectly relevant to this discussion since we are talking about their right to industrialise.

[fgalkin]

Lowering. their. fucking. birthrate. like the rest of us have. In doing so they can lower their population to manageable levels.

But I guess that's a long term solution that won't fuck over my lifestyle, so maybe its not the best solution.

They ARE doing that, you dull-witted nincompoop. To the point of giving their citizens forced abortions.

And yet everybody seems to want them to go industrialize right now when there are still more than a billion of them, for great justice. More like for maximum First World fuck up.

Their population would not go down drastically, no matter what they do, any more than the US or EU population will go down to pre-WWII levels. You're just going to have to live with the fact that they're a Very Large Country. Sucks to be you, shithead.

Ah, so it boils down to envy then and a desire to stick it to us for being so rich. Well, fuck you, too, Stas, I thought you were better than that.

No, it is your post that is essentially saying "I want my toys no matter what, and no one can take them from me, waaah!".

Yes, because I fucking earned those toys.

You did? How? By being born in a first world country?

Gee, maybe we didn't know any better, you prick. Unfortunately the rest of you have no such excuse.

Didn't know any better? You mean, like, every single description or depiction of Victorian London mentioning the haze of smog? Or the English acts trying to reduce it going all the way back to the Middle Ages?

These are the same people who took centuries to figure out that wallowing in their own (and others) shit was a bad idea.

I do not understand your argument here. At all.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Fr33ze]

But I guess that's a long term solution that won't fuck over my lifestyle, so maybe its not the best solution.

To adopt your attitude-- Why would Chinese care about YOUR lifestyle?! If your life standard goes down, too bad for you, stop whining and live with it!

[Ryan Thunder]

Their population would not go down drastically, no matter what they do, any more than the US or EU population will go down to pre-WWII levels. You're just going to have to live with the fact that they're a Very Large Country. Sucks to be you, shithead.

Uh, no. They're going to have to deal with it. Their inability to manage their population should not be my problem. It's wrong for them to make it my problem.

Yes, because I fucking earned those toys.

You did? How? By being born in a first world country?

I have a job, and I fucking payed for it, that's how.

Didn't know any better? You mean, like, every single description or depiction of Victorian London mentioning the haze of smog? Or the English acts trying to reduce it going all the way back to the Middle Ages?

These are the same people who took centuries to figure out that wallowing in their own (and others) shit was a bad idea.

I do not understand your argument here. At all.

Oh, they knew about the smog and why it was bad for them. They had no idea what it would do to the rest of the world. China doesn't have that excuse.

[fgalkin]

Uh, no. They're going to have to deal with it. Their inability to manage their population should not be my problem. It's wrong for them to make it my problem.

They manage their population just fine. It just happens to be larger than you want it to be. Well, tough luck. Who said all nations are to be capped at 300 million?

I have a job, and I fucking payed for it, that's how.

So, why should you get ten times more money for twice less labor? If you're going by how hard one works, workers in industrializing nations should be paid the most.

I do not understand your argument here. At all.

Oh, they knew about the smog and why it was bad for them. They had no idea what it would do to the rest of the world. China doesn't have that excuse.

They knew it was making them sick, and yet they continued to do it anyway, because they didn't give a shit as long as they had the factories working. How is that any different from China?

In fact, China is arguably better because they treat it as a temporary stage, planning to move on to cleaner industries, whereas the US, Europe, and the Soviet Union were more than happy to keep polluting in perpetuity until cleaner alternatives came along (except the USSR, which just kept doing it even then).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Ryan Thunder]

They manage their population just fine. It just happens to be larger than you want it to be. Well, tough luck. Who said all nations are to be capped at 300 million?

Whoever determined that the maximum number of people the world could sustain at first-world living standards with modern technology was less than the number of people alive today. I forget their names.

Them, and the guys who determined that we're causing climate change with our pollution.

Granted they never said specifically 300 million per nation, because that would be retarded. Either way, there are too many of us. It just so happens that the largest concentrations of us are in China and India, two nations which both need to be doing something serious about that.

I have a job, and I fucking paid for it, that's how.

So, why should you get ten times more money for twice less labor? If you're going by how hard one works, workers in industrializing nations should be paid the most.

I don't know. The better question to ask is why do they get ten times less for twice more work. You're in the same boat I'm in, remember.

Oh, they knew about the smog and why it was bad for them. They had no idea what it would do to the rest of the world. China doesn't have that excuse.

They knew it was making them sick, and yet they continued to do it anyway, because they didn't give a shit as long as they had the factories working. How is that any different from China?

It's not. They should know better because it's common knowledge that they're shooting up massive amounts of pollution and that this is bad for everybody.

In fact, China is arguably better because they treat it as a temporary stage, planning to move on to cleaner industries, whereas the US, Europe, and the Soviet Union were more than happy to keep polluting in perpetuity until cleaner alternatives came along (except the USSR, which just kept doing it even then).

Wait a minute. When did this happen?

But I guess that's a long term solution that won't fuck over my lifestyle, so maybe its not the best solution.

To adopt your attitude-- Why would Chinese care about YOUR lifestyle?! If your life standard goes down, too bad for you, stop whining and live with it!

Your interpretation of my attitude is... fascinating...

[sketerpot]

Coal is still their main source of power, and at the rate at which they are building coal plants, will likely be their main source of power into the foreseeable future.

It will remain such forever even if they don't industrialize beyond what they have now. Unless you are wishing nuclear destruction of China or some other democide to strike that nation, those coal plants have only one way of stopping operation - being slowly replaced by nuclear in many decades. The problem has no peaceful solution other than allowing China to industrialize and slowly upgrade their energy.

China might replace coal with nuclear a lot faster than you think (though still not as fast as we'd like). Have you heard of their high-temperature gas-cooled pebble-bed nuclear reactor program? They completed a small research reactor (the HTR-10) in 2000 and now they're constructing a prototype of the model they'd like to move into commercial production, the two-reactor 200 MWe HTR-PM. The first one is due to come on line in 2010, with 18 more modules to follow shortly afterward, for a total of 3.6 GWe at their demonstration plant in Shangdon. Some fun things about these reactors:

1. They're small and modular, and should be cheaper to mass-produce than conventional nuclear reactors. This is a major goal of the project, so you better believe they have factories devoted to churning out the components of these reactors.

2. They can produce very high-temperature steam, and should be able to act as an alternative steam source for coal plants that you want to convert into nuclear plants. This helps with siting and infrastructure issues.

3. They're simple and walk-away safe. In tests, they've simply stopped the coolant circulation on the research reactor and let it shut itself down without any core damage.

The high core temperature and easy siting also makes these reactors useful for industrial process heat in applications which currently depend on fossil fuel burning, such as a lot of oil refining. So that's nice too. Oh, and they can be refueled without shutting them down. And China is absolutely serious about this; that's a nice thing about having a country run by pragmatic engineers.

In the near-term, light water reactors are going to be the mainstay of China's nuclear efforts -- but don't underestimate the HTR-PM. Some slides with more technical details here. (PDF)