Kercher murder Trial

[Big Phil]

http://www.makli.com/meredith-kercher-a ... s-0015580/ *NSFW* Short videos of the investigation, apparently taken by the police, showing Kercher's room during the investigation (on 2 November) and the bathroom, showing the drops of blood.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... orror.html *NSFW* Better photos apparently of the bathroom and Kercher's bedroom, showing lots of blood in the bathroom sink. If these photos are actually of the bathroom, then Knox's "taking a shower" story becomes pretty weak, as you have to be some sort of moron (or blind) not to notice that much blood. Of course, there are three or four different versions of what Knox and Sollecito did that night and the next morning, so who the fuck knows.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31301331/ This summarizes her testimony during the trial; given the quantity of blood in the bathroom, it's pretty iffy. She doesn't mention blood on the sink, which I find odd, but does testify that she took a shower and noticed blood on the rug.

[Gaidin]

Holy crap if that's the bathroom she missed blood in when taking a shower that's pretty sad and indeed wrecks her story.

[[R_H]]

Holy crap if that's the bathroom she missed blood in when taking a shower that's pretty sad and indeed wrecks her story.

No kidding. Jeez, that's a lot of blood, and it's freaking everywhere. I seriously doubt that she didn't notice the blood, even if she was stoned.

[Big Phil]

I'll admit, the bathroom photo has me stumped. Why in the hell would someone attempt to clean up a crime scene and leave the bathroom looking like that? Were they interrupted, or did they just give up, are they morons? Unfortunately the video doesn't show the sink and all of that apparent blood (it was Halloween the night before the murder - I suppose it could be somebody's red makeup, but that's unlikely), so I don't know what to make of it.

That's the only piece of physical evidence that, in my opinion, really puts Knox in a bad light. It can be explained in her favor, but you have to be really generous to excuse her inability to see that much blood.

[[R_H]]

I'll admit, the bathroom photo has me stumped. Why in the hell would someone attempt to clean up a crime scene and leave the bathroom looking like that? Were they interrupted, or did they just give up, are they morons? Unfortunately the video doesn't show the sink and all of that apparent blood (it was Halloween the night before the murder - I suppose it could be somebody's red makeup, but that's unlikely), so I don't know what to make of it.

That's the only piece of physical evidence that, in my opinion, really puts Knox in a bad light. It can be explained in her favor, but you have to be really generous to excuse her inability to see that much blood.

Maybe she realised the futility of trying to clean up that much blood? Or maybe she didn't expect there would be so much blood.

[[R_H]]

I asked her if she had seen how her country had reacted to the verdict," said Verini. "She was evidently aware of everything that was happening, but did not say what effect she thought it would have on her legal situation."

He quoted Knox as saying that her trial was "correct," and that she "still has faith in the Italian legal system."
...
Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., issued a statement expressing doubts about the Italian justice system, and indicated that anti-Americanism may have tainted the trial. She implied that the jury was not impartial, and had been negatively influenced by Italian media accounts of the case. Cantwell said she would take her case to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

[Liberty]

Holy crap if that's the bathroom she missed blood in when taking a shower that's pretty sad and indeed wrecks her story.

No kidding. Jeez, that's a lot of blood, and it's freaking everywhere. I seriously doubt that she didn't notice the blood, even if she was stoned.

My understanding is that she saw the blood and said she thought it was menstrual blood. Granted, that's a lot of blood, but it's not like people expect to come home and find that their roommate is a murder victim, so it's not like she would have been expecting that. Also, hasn't it been mentioned that Knox wasn't a tidy person? Maybe it didn't bother her.

Aside from Knox's shoe print on Kercher's body (which I've only ever seen here, when Thanas mentioned it, and I need to look into it), I've seen no evidence of Kercher actually in the room where the death occurred, and to me, that's pretty telling.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Based on my experience people who had nothing to do with it will still lie to the police, which is why evidence is so important. I've found they do it out of a fear that they would be either charged with the crime under investigation, charged with another crime because they failed to act, or are trying to protect someone from being charged with the crime, or a failure to act crime.

[The Yosemite Bear]

your only talking a gallon of fluid at maxm if your wearing shoes or sandels you won't notice it. If your drunk and head into the showers, then you won't notice anything, except that maybe someone spilled something wet on the carpet...

[Thanas]

According to german media it was blood that mingled, but of course it could be that the media reporting is inaccurate.

I understand why the police believe it was staged, but again playing devil's advocate, I would ask a question and pose an alternate scenario: Guede breaks in and starts rummaging around, Kercher hears him and comes to investigate, Guede chases her back to her room, rapes, and kills her, then flees the house in a panic without taking anything.

Your version disregards the cleanup - if there was a lot of heavy scrubbing, that does not really fly with the "flees in panic". If he had time to clean up, he could have taken something.

[Big Phil]

According to german media it was blood that mingled, but of course it could be that the media reporting is inaccurate.

I understand why the police believe it was staged, but again playing devil's advocate, I would ask a question and pose an alternate scenario: Guede breaks in and starts rummaging around, Kercher hears him and comes to investigate, Guede chases her back to her room, rapes, and kills her, then flees the house in a panic without taking anything.

Your version disregards the cleanup - if there was a lot of heavy scrubbing, that does not really fly with the "flees in panic". If he had time to clean up, he could have taken something.

Fair enough - how does a cleanup implicate Knox and Sollecito, given the lack of other physical evidence?


By the way, has anybody ever heard about this supposed CCTV video showing Guede and Kercher arriving at the apartment together? I can't watch it at work, so I don't know what it shows, but I hadn't heard about this before.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 734239.ece

[Thanas]

I understand why the police believe it was staged, but again playing devil's advocate, I would ask a question and pose an alternate scenario: Guede breaks in and starts rummaging around, Kercher hears him and comes to investigate, Guede chases her back to her room, rapes, and kills her, then flees the house in a panic without taking anything.

Your version disregards the cleanup - if there was a lot of heavy scrubbing, that does not really fly with the "flees in panic". If he had time to clean up, he could have taken something.

Fair enough - how does a cleanup implicate Knox and Sollecito, given the lack of other physical evidence?

Given that their footprints were found in the blood that was cleaned up, quite a lot, methinks.

And I still can't see how she managed to miss all that blood in the bathroom. By her own statement she recognized that someone had taken a dump, but missed all the blood and took a shower?

By the way, has anybody ever heard about this supposed CCTV video showing Guede and Kercher arriving at the apartment together? I can't watch it at work, so I don't know what it shows, but I hadn't heard about this before.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 734239.ece

Sorry, can't watch it at work either.

[salm]

Maybe the resolution is better on the original video but at least in the video on the The Sun homepage the quality is so bad that you can´t identify anything.
No idea how they get that they arrive together from this video either. It only shows one pixely person walking around.

[Big Phil]

Given that their footprints were found in the blood that was cleaned up, quite a lot, methinks.

And I still can't see how she managed to miss all that blood in the bathroom. By her own statement she recognized that someone had taken a dump, but missed all the blood and took a shower?

The footprint in Kercher's room that "matches" Sollecito's shoe is debatable - considering how they managed to remove all traces of their DNA from the room (if they did clean up), leaving a shoeprint is kind of dumb. The prosecution never actually found the pair of shoes in Sollecito's house - just that they were roughly the same size as he wore. Knox's footprints were in the hallway, which you would expect if she took a shower.

Missing the blood in the bathroom doesn't necessarily point to guilt; for one thing, when I lived with roommates I didn't go investigating to see if they were home. I honestly don't know how I'd have reacted had I found blood in the sink; her behavior is bizarre, but not necessarily indicative of guilt. Second, she doesn't strike me as being particular bright; I don't mean she has a low IQ (her grades suggest she's reasonably intelligent), but rather that she's naive and not especially worldly (she didn't seem particularly aware of how her behavior would be interpreted by the Italian police and jury - stupid, stupid, stupid). Perhaps it never occurred to her that that much blood could be menstrual blood? Perhaps she panicked and froze when she saw the volume of blood? One of the theories is that Knox owed Guede money - perhaps Guede came to the house to collect that evening and Kercher happened to be there, with unfortunate consequences. Perhaps Knox was there that evening, heard the murder and didn't do anything, and felt guilty at her inaction.

Unfortunately, we'll never know for sure what happened since no one seems to be confessing anytime soon. Knox sure didn't do herself any favors, and I have a hard time feeling sorry for such a stupid little girl. On the flip side, you have a prosecutor in love with conspiracy theories and determined to portray Knox as a brilliant, manipulative, sociopathic she-devil (does she really strike anyone as brilliant or manipulative?), with the media happy to tell that story. I don't know Knox personally, but I knew an awful lot of girls just like her in high school and college - reasonably book smart but sheltered, naive, and not particularly aware of what was going on outside of their little world. That's a bad combination when add in sex, drugs, alcohol, and foreign cultures.

[Thanas]

^Well, at this point I think there is little to do but to wait for the full decision.

[salm]

It´s possible that she didn´t even identify it as blood at the time. It was mixed with the cleaning chemicals and, at least on the photos, it doesn´t look like blood.

[Simon_Jester]

Maybe she realised the futility of trying to clean up that much blood? Or maybe she didn't expect there would be so much blood.

But it's a bathroom- the one place where almost anyone will have large supplies of water and powerful cleaning products on hand, and where most of the surfaces are easily cleaned ceramics.

If someone were going to clean up a house after a bloody murder, the bathroom is the LAST place I'd expect to find covered in blood stains afterwards.

It´s possible that she didn´t even identify it as blood at the time. It was mixed with the cleaning chemicals and, at least on the photos, it doesn´t look like blood.

I'm afraid to ask what she would have identified it as.

[Big Phil]

I'm afraid to ask what she would have identified it as.

If it were a guys' bathroom, I wouldn't be surprised at shit or puke smeared on the walls, but they smell different than blood.

Isn't congealed, dried blood brownish in color? It looks awfully red in those photos - I wonder if they were retouched, or if I'm simply mistaken.

[Wing Commander MAD]

I'm afraid to ask what she would have identified it as.

If it were a guys' bathroom, I wouldn't be surprised at shit or puke smeared on the walls, but they smell different than blood.

Isn't congealed, dried blood brownish in color? It looks awfully red in those photos - I wonder if they were retouched, or if I'm simply mistaken.

Where the hell, or better with what kind of people do you live/have lived with? Not even the public restrooms at ball parks and gas stations are left in that kind of condition. Furthermore this was the bathroom of an apartment, the only time I'd normally even consider such a state possible is if the premises is abandoned and used for squatting by addicts or the homeless. Hell, animals may eat shit, but to my knowledge not even they make a habit of extruding waste where the live/nest (I'm assuming some basic evolutionary hygeine i.e. those that did defacate in their living areas tended to get sick and die while those that didn't lived), though I may be completely wrong and full of shit as it were .

I'm still a little confused about why this is an issue, I'm sure similar things happen all the time and no one gives a damn. Is there something I've missed other than possibly the sentiment of my countrymen of "How dare they accuse an American of committing a crime, let alone prosecute one with their dirty inferior foreign laws!" Is there trully anything substantive seeing as we haven't recievied the full decision, or is this really just a bizarre case of AMERICA FUCK YEAH, mixed with plain old tribalism, and the somewhat arrogant assumption that a system of laws that works differently from our own is wrong unjust and merely by being different? I'd be definitely intersted in hearing some more non-American thoughts on the whole issue.

[Big Phil]

Wing Commander - dude, there are 92 previous posts in this thread, wherein some of us explain EXACTLY "why this is an issue." If you can't even take the time to read the thread before throwing out a lameass "what's the problem?" post, do us all a favor and leave; if you have something to contribute, on the other hand, I'm all ears.

[Wing Commander MAD]

I've read the thread and the general feeling I'm getting from people complaining about possible missconduct on part of the Italian authorities is that its a different process from what we have here in the US, both in how the trial is conducted and how evidence is considered.

• She was apparently crusified in the media and the jury wasn't sequestered and people fear that tainted their decision.
• Possible issues with her interrogation.
• Issues with the evidence.

Regarding the first,Thanas has already pointed out however, that this is not like a U.S. trial and that the jury includes two professional judges who are there to sheppard the laymen to some degree. I fairly well satisfied with that probably not being an issue if Thanas (probably the only one of us here even remotely qualified to speak regarding the Italian Judicial Process/Code) doesn't seem to have an issue with it. While this may be an appeal to authority of sorts, I see nothing wrong with it as long as said authority is valid and the issues actually relates to thier field. This of course is not actual legal advice, which would be inappriate, but I feel it is a perfectly valid form of evidence in a debate on an internet message board.

The second two issues are potentially more problematic, I admit. My main issue is that the arguments against those tend be more in the fact that the Judicial system operates under different principles than the U.S. one does, at least in my eyes. Some things definitely wouldn't hold up under the American system from the sound of it (like the one DNA test bit and maybe the knife ), but this isn't America and American legal standards are irrelevant in this case as the apparent crime took place under Italian jurisdiction. There might be reason to consider the Italian judicial system suspect and the prospect of a fair trial impossible if there was a history of kangaroo courts and no regard for anything resembling the concept of due process that is presenet the American system. However, to my knowledge that is not the case and Italy certainly doesn't seem to be widely condemned for thier terrible unjust legal system by the rest of the first world.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Crap wasn't able to get in the rest of what I left out within the edit window.

My point is that would there really be all this concern about Knox if she wasn't an American, and say from somewhere else in Europe or elsewhere? I would consider it admirable if that were the case, but I really doubt most people who are complaining about this care all that much about someone they can't identify with (even if that identification is merely one of us) out of purely altruistic reasons. Would we even be hearing about this at all in the media (at least in American media which seems to not give a damn about the rest of the world) if she wasn't American? I have a feeling all this concern is not at all about justice being done, but then again I tend to be pessimistic in my outlook which may be causing me to misjudge others.

Note: I am not necessarily referring to anyone speicific here, rather the whole spirit that's arisen around this case.

[Big Phil]

I've read the thread and the general feeling I'm getting from people complaining about possible missconduct on part of the Italian authorities is that its a different process from what we have here in the US, both in how the trial is conducted and how evidence is considered.

• She was apparently crusified in the media and the jury wasn't sequestered and people fear that tainted their decision.
• Possible issues with her interrogation.
• Issues with the evidence.

Regarding the first,Thanas has already pointed out however, that this is not like a U.S. trial and that the jury includes two professional judges who are there to sheppard the laymen to some degree. I fairly well satisfied with that probably not being an issue if Thanas (probably the only one of us here even remotely qualified to speak regarding the Italian Judicial Process/Code) doesn't seem to have an issue with it. While this may be an appeal to authority of sorts, I see nothing wrong with it as long as said authority is valid and the issues actually relates to thier field. This of course is not actual legal advice, which would be inappriate, but I feel it is a perfectly valid form of evidence in a debate on an internet message board.

Thanas is, I believe, German. I am as qualified to speak to the Mexican or Canadian justice system as he is the Italian, with the caveat that perhaps he knows more than the average person. If Thanas is an attorney, then we have some reason to value his opinion more strongly than the rest of us, but otherwise he is just a highly intelligent layperson with access to the same information as the rest of us. "Thanas' opinion" is of no more value here, therefore, than yours or mine or anyone elses.

The second two issues are potentially more problematic, I admit. My main issue is that the arguments against those tend be more in the fact that the Judicial system operates under different principles than the U.S. one does, at least in my eyes. Some things definitely wouldn't hold up under the American system from the sound of it (like the one DNA test bit and maybe the knife ), but this isn't America and American legal standards are irrelevant in this case as the apparent crime took place under Italian jurisdiction. There might be reason to consider the Italian judicial system suspect and the prospect of a fair trial impossible if there was a history of kangaroo courts and no regard for anything resembling the concept of due process that is presenet the American system. However, to my knowledge that is not the case and Italy certainly doesn't seem to be widely condemned for thier terrible unjust legal system by the rest of the first world.

Personally, I don't think I'm criticizing the system; I'm criticizing a prosecutor with an agenda, police who may have botched a crime scene and contaminated evidence, an interrogation that was designed to prove a conclusion already drawn (we think Knox is guilty - let's look for evidence to confirm our suspicions), a lack of physical evidence, a lack of motive, a character assassination through the media, and a verdict that, in my opinion, cannot be reached based solely on the evidence, but rather requires that the jury have been affected by the character assassination and media coverage.

My point is that would there really be all this concern about Knox if she wasn't an American, and say from somewhere else in Europe or elsewhere? I would consider it admirable if that were the case, but I really doubt most people who are complaining about this care all that much about someone they can't identify with (even if that identification is merely one of us) out of purely altruistic reasons. Would we even be hearing about this at all in the media (at least in American media which seems to not give a damn about the rest of the world) if she wasn't American? I have a feeling all this concern is not at all about justice being done, but then again I tend to be pessimistic in my outlook which may be causing me to misjudge others.

It's being covered in the American media because she's an American, otherwise it would have been covered in the French media, or German, or Dutch, or wherever the alleged murderer was from. People are paying attention to (and some defending) Amanda Knox for the same reason that the British press is going beserk condemning Knox and holding Meredith Kercher up to be the next coming of the Virgin Mary - national pride/tribalism/whatever you want to call it.

I don't care about Amanda Knox - I don't know the girl - but I'm having a discussion on a web board about a case that I find interesting and whose verdict I find appalling. If someone had posted the same story about a Russian girl convicted in India for killing a Japanese girl, I'd probably still be posting because it's an interesting topic to me. The people you should be going apeshit about are the folks who post heinous shit in newspaper website comment section, the Justice for Meredith dipshits, and similar folks who aren't analyzing anything but just taking sides (like it's a fucking World Cup game) and rooting for the home team. Never mind the ass clowns who can't even get their facts straight and spend their time calling Amanda Knox a (paraphrasing) spoiled, rich, slutty, drug-addicted, sociopathic, psychopathic, manipulative, evil, American. 'Cause after all, someone who went to a private school must be rich, they can't possibly be middle class, and she must be a sociopath because she had sex with seven guys! [GASP] 'Cause despite that being omnipresent in the media, there's absolutely no way a non-sequestered jury could have been influenced by that angle, right?

[Simon_Jester]

I'm still a little confused about why this is an issue, I'm sure similar things happen all the time and no one gives a damn. Is there something I've missed other than possibly the sentiment of my countrymen of "How dare they accuse an American of committing a crime, let alone prosecute one with their dirty inferior foreign laws!" Is there trully anything substantive seeing as we haven't recievied the full decision, or is this really just a bizarre case of AMERICA FUCK YEAH, mixed with plain old tribalism, and the somewhat arrogant assumption that a system of laws that works differently from our own is wrong unjust and merely by being different? I'd be definitely intersted in hearing some more non-American thoughts on the whole issue.

In my case, this is one of the rare cases in which a trial based on what seems to be wobbly evidence where the defendant stands to suffer horribly actually comes to my notice. I'm surprised you would even be curious as to why it gets some attention from me; I'd think it was blindingly obvious.

If this were an open and shut case with an avalanche of obvious evidence, or even a case with a few really solid pieces of indisputable evidence along with a bunch of other shaky ones, I would have no problem with Knox being convicted, and no reason to ask questions except curiosity. But as far as I can tell, it isn't.

I've read the thread and the general feeling I'm getting from people complaining about possible missconduct on part of the Italian authorities is that its a different process from what we have here in the US, both in how the trial is conducted and how evidence is considered.

• She was apparently crusified in the media and the jury wasn't sequestered and people fear that tainted their decision.
• Possible issues with her interrogation.
• Issues with the evidence.

Surely, however, we can reasonably complain if we think the Italian judiciary is doing a bad job of trying our citizens, just as the Italians can complain when our judiciary does a bad job of trying theirs.*

*Not if, when; we do not have all that great a judiciary.

Some things definitely wouldn't hold up under the American system from the sound of it (like the one DNA test bit and maybe the knife ), but this isn't America and American legal standards are irrelevant in this case as the apparent crime took place under Italian jurisdiction.

In this case, the concern isn't so much about whether the legal standards of Italy match American standards; it's about whether they match abstract standards that any nation should apply before throwing people in jail.

Any civilized country should take a little care to avoid admitting biased or planted evidence in court cases, to avoid using a forced confession or statements made under duress as evidence against the defendant, to avoid convicting people on the basis of unreliable testimony, and so on. There are good reasons to avoid those things anywhere, not just in a large stripe running east to west across North America. If Italy isn't avoiding those things all that hard, people might reasonably complain, both inside and outside of Italy... just as people complain when the US fails to avoid those things.

Thanas is, I believe, German. I am as qualified to speak to the Mexican or Canadian justice system as he is the Italian, with the caveat that perhaps he knows more than the average person. If Thanas is an attorney, then we have some reason to value his opinion more strongly than the rest of us, but otherwise he is just a highly intelligent layperson with access to the same information as the rest of us. "Thanas' opinion" is of no more value here, therefore, than yours or mine or anyone elses.

I disagree. Thanas' opinion of what the Italian judiciary system is is almost certainly of more value here than mine, simply because he is a student of law who, it seems implied, has made at least a limited review of the Italian judiciary. Moreover, the Italian judiciary seems to have more in common with the German than the American, which is the only one I know anything about.

Since I don't know anything about your legal qualifications in any respect, I make no such statement about your opinions. Only mine.

[Thanas]

Regarding the first,Thanas has already pointed out however, that this is not like a U.S. trial and that the jury includes two professional judges who are there to sheppard the laymen to some degree. I fairly well satisfied with that probably not being an issue if Thanas (probably the only one of us here even remotely qualified to speak regarding the Italian Judicial Process/Code) doesn't seem to have an issue with it. While this may be an appeal to authority of sorts, I see nothing wrong with it as long as said authority is valid and the issues actually relates to thier field. This of course is not actual legal advice, which would be inappriate, but I feel it is a perfectly valid form of evidence in a debate on an internet message board.

Thanas is, I believe, German. I am as qualified to speak to the Mexican or Canadian justice system as he is the Italian, with the caveat that perhaps he knows more than the average person. If Thanas is an attorney, then we have some reason to value his opinion more strongly than the rest of us, but otherwise he is just a highly intelligent layperson with access to the same information as the rest of us. "Thanas' opinion" is of no more value here, therefore, than yours or mine or anyone elses.

I do hold several law degrees and spent some time with the US criminal justice system (precisely: two murder trials, two rape cases and one theft) while doing work with an appeals lawyer as part of the requirements for my degree in american law (German law schools offer a supplemental five-semester program on american and/or British law). I also spent time with Italian colleagues, though I have never practiced there or did much. I did however meet with several Italians at conferences, including some criminal judges. I also am pretty much familiar with the Italian constitution and the legal system through my studies in the field of constitutional history.

So while I am not as qualified to comment on it as, say, a real Italian lawyer would be, I think I can safely comment on the general quality of the Italian legal system.