Rampage shooting in Santa Barbara by misogynist 22-yo.

[Broomstick]

I suspect the truth is that ultimately, he was lonely, a situation aggravated by his Aspergers and he coped by becoming misogynistic. Nobody ever says self coping mechanism can't be self destructive and in this case, it ultimately promoted his behavior in a downward spiral.

Two things on the whole mental illness/dysfunction thing. First, I'm not entirely convinced he had Asperger's even if he was officially diagnosed. These days it seems everyone and his dog is being put on the autism spectrum which makes me thinks the diagnosis is being overused and misapplied. Second, even if he had Asperger's that doesn't mean it was his only mental problem. He was pretty damn narcissistic, didn't give a fuck about other people except as how they could serve him, and I think there's a good half dozen other labels you could slap on this guy.

Instead of Elliot being the tip of an iceberg of women hating men, I see Elliot as a very violent example of hundreds of thousands of lonely people.

Those hundreds of thousands of lonely people don't go on killing sprees. There's something more than just loneliness at work here. That's a simplistic as the people who blame this on the availability of guns – he didn't just shoot people, he stabbed three people to death and ran people over with his car. Sure, guns were a factor but removing them from the picture wouldn't have prevented all the dying. Likewise, I don't think removing his loneliness would have fixed this guy.

Sex therapy? If I recall Japan has a pretty big issue regarding the growing numbers of young adults that have yet to have sex way beyond an age which some western countries would be considered as normal. One of the various response towards such an issue is the growing number of sex therapist that helps young males especially connect better with people of the opposite gender.

That sort of exists in the US, but good luck convincing the law that it's not just another form of prostitution. It's also not cheap, and it's something people like Elliott would have trouble affording.

If he can afford a BMW then he afford a sex therapist or even just a prostitute. Of course, he doesn't want to pay for sex, he wants a woman to willingly be his sex-dispenser. Even if he had taken care of the virginity issue with a hooker he still would have been whining about stuck-up bitches and wondering why women weren't spreading their legs for him.

How about just regular therapy then? Sounds like it could have done some good.

He was in therapy.

It's all very well saying 'oh he had a shitty personality there's nothing that can be done.' How did he end up with a shitty personality in the first place? And can we change that?

Sometimes people's brains don't work right from the get-go. I don't think this is a case of shitty environment. On top of that, sometimes you can't change people from something nasty to something more comfortable in society.

What might be there is that he literally did not know what he was doing wrong. If, as Broomstick says, he set off the creepermeter he didn't know that, and he didn't know how to not do it because he's the weird kid who no-one engages with.

I wonder if this is an instance where CBT would have been helpful (who knows what sort of therapy he has been getting?) where the emphasis is not on how you got to this place but how to relate to other human beings. Of course, the requires the client/patient to realize that the problem is at least partly coming from within and not solely the fault of other people, and a desire to change oneself.

[Lolpah]

They need to be engaged with as human beings in order to break down their current understanding of personal value and build up a better understanding which isn't based on appearance, owning stuff, or having had sex.

It sounds like you are suggesting schools teach a few 'humanist philosophy' classes. Not a bad idea but alas pretty much politically impossible.

How about something like "Social education" then? That would basically try to teach the kids on how to behave in the society and in social situations. Granted that might still annoy certain people politically (perhaps a different, even more vague name?), and I'm not sure how well would US schools teach that.

[PainRack]

Which is not an answer to my question. "We gotta' do something" is all fine and dandy, but I'm more interested in specific proposals.

So, how do you "deal" with these people?

What makes you think society and our modern world has an answer?

Again, the Taiwan train stabbing incident that happened just DAYS prior to this has similar underpinnings, from sociopathy to suicide,albeit,suicide by cop.

The sole difference was misogyny vs infamy, but they're based on similar fundamental needs not being met.

[ray245]

Sex therapy? If I recall Japan has a pretty big issue regarding the growing numbers of young adults that have yet to have sex way beyond an age which some western countries would be considered as normal. One of the various response towards such an issue is the growing number of sex therapist that helps young males especially connect better with people of the opposite gender.

That sort of exists in the US, but good luck convincing the law that it's not just another form of prostitution. It's also not cheap, and it's something people like Elliott would have trouble affording.

If he can afford a BMW then he afford a sex therapist or even just a prostitute. Of course, he doesn't want to pay for sex, he wants a woman to willingly be his sex-dispenser. Even if he had taken care of the virginity issue with a hooker he still would have been whining about stuck-up bitches and wondering why women weren't spreading their legs for him.

Then we need to ensure people like him can understand this is a wrong view via treatment.

Sometimes people's brains don't work right from the get-go. I don't think this is a case of shitty environment. On top of that, sometimes you can't change people from something nasty to something more comfortable in society.

But what else can we do but find some new way to resolve or at the very least mitigate this problem? Essentially locking such people up for life just because they are genetic failures is a horrible option that I don't think society is prepared to accept either.

[Zaune]

How about something like "Social education" then? That would basically try to teach the kids on how to behave in the society and in social situations. Granted that might still annoy certain people politically (perhaps a different, even more vague name?), and I'm not sure how well would US schools teach that.

I've got a better idea.

How about we all collectively pledge to make an effort to talk to a guy like this if we meet one of them? To show a little forbearance for their spectacular lack of social skills and get to know them a bit better, maybe try and provide a bit of positive influence? Override the CreeperMeter warning for a little bit, give them the benefit of the doubt that their behaviour is a result of ignorance rather than deliberate intent to offend.

You think it's all society's fault? Well, yeah, maybe it is. But society is us.

[PainRack]

Instead of Elliot being the tip of an iceberg of women hating men, I see Elliot as a very violent example of hundreds of thousands of lonely people.

Those hundreds of thousands of lonely people don't go on killing sprees. There's something more than just loneliness at work here. That's a simplistic as the people who blame this on the availability of guns – he didn't just shoot people, he stabbed three people to death and ran people over with his car. Sure, guns were a factor but removing them from the picture wouldn't have prevented all the dying. Likewise, I don't think removing his loneliness would have fixed this guy.

I'm not saying removing his loneliness will solve every problem.
I actually believe it's unsolvable by society because any long term solution must be initiated by the individual.

I am however seeking to reframe the argument from "this is just misogyny or this is plain crazy".

Like I said, I think we are ignoring how powerful warping and destructive being a social misfit is, whether or not the reason for one being a misfit is self inflicted or labelled by others.

In this example, it's clear to me that it isn't just plain narcissism or misogyny that caused the rampage. Rather, its the isolated and warped nature of isolation that drove him to that ideology and caused it. Banning misogyny won't solve anything, as Taiwan illustrates.

[Broomstick]

But what else can we do but find some new way to resolve or at the very least mitigate this problem? Essentially locking such people up for life just because they are genetic failures is a horrible option that I don't think society is prepared to accept either.

I am all for attempting to remedy the situation in the least restrictive manner possible. However, at a certain point when such an individual becomes a serious danger to other people then other people should be protected from him.

Yes, that might mean locking him up for the rest of his life. I agree, that's not a good solution, even if it is the least bad alternative. Even then, it would be preferable if we made that incarceration at least somewhat comfortable. I am in no way advocating a bare concrete cell and no contact whatsoever with other people because that's torture, really.

I'm not sure what sort of role one could devise for such a person that would be both rewarding to the individual, harmless to others, and useful to the rest of society.

[Broomstick]

How about we all collectively pledge to make an effort to talk to a guy like this if we meet one of them? To show a little forbearance for their spectacular lack of social skills and get to know them a bit better, maybe try and provide a bit of positive influence? Override the CreeperMeter warning for a little bit, give them the benefit of the doubt that their behaviour is a result of ignorance rather than deliberate intent to offend.

The problem is that if a woman such as myself talks to a guy like this she risks making herself a target. If I could safely engage in some sort of interaction with such a person I would be willing to do so but I'm not willing to risk being made into a player in whatever murderous psychotic fantasy such a person might concoct.

I try very hard to treat/interact with the weird and awkward like normal people, but at a certain level the CreeperMeter is a danger warning.

[Terralthra]

Someone who goes on a violent shooting spree because he thinks women won't give him the sex he's entitled to, if he were to proposition them in the first place, is not someone that any sex worker would sell sexual services to if she had any choice at all. The solution to "man is misogynist, crazy, violent" is not "throw sex-workers, those women we don't really care about, in front of the problem and hope that helps."

[Metahive]

I'm really put off by the sympathy expressed for the murderer and his ilk by some people. Here's a guy who had a more than reasonably comfortable life planning for years to commit a vicious murder spree all because he was a sexist macho asshole which couldn't get a a girlfriend. What the fuck is wrong with you people? "But, but, he was lonely!"...BOO-MOTHERFUCKING-HOO, he was lonely because he was a totally unsympathetic dipshit! Kind of self-inflicted ailment if you ask me.

[PainRack]

I'm really put off by the sympathy expressed for the murderer and his ilk by some people. Here's a guy who had a more than reasonably comfortable life planning for years to commit a vicious murder spree all because he was a sexist macho asshole which couldn't get a a girlfriend. What the fuck is wrong with you people? "But, but, he was lonely!"...BOO-MOTHERFUCKING-HOO, he was lonely because he was a totally unsympathetic dipshit! Kind of self-inflicted ailment if you ask me.

Ah yes, because understanding someone or even being able to empathize with how this with other flaws led to a course of action is providing aid and comfort to the enemy.


Btw, how IS that attitude working for the US in the War on Terror?

[Metahive]

Ah yes, because understanding someone or even being able to empathize with how this with other flaws led to a course of action is providing aid and comfort to the enemy.


Btw, how IS that attitude working for the US in the War on Terror?

You seriously compare someone who's living in misery in a wartorn country and lashing out at foreign invaders to some upper class twit with entitlement issues?

Go fuck yourself.

[Zaune]

The problem is that if a woman such as myself talks to a guy like this she risks making herself a target. If I could safely engage in some sort of interaction with such a person I would be willing to do so but I'm not willing to risk being made into a player in whatever murderous psychotic fantasy such a person might concoct.

I try very hard to treat/interact with the weird and awkward like normal people, but at a certain level the CreeperMeter is a danger warning.

True, but in the worst case scenario you can always slug him with a roll of quarters or knee him in the balls. Though I admit this is a somewhat different problem if there's a non-trivial chance of him having a gun under his coat.

[ray245]

But what else can we do but find some new way to resolve or at the very least mitigate this problem? Essentially locking such people up for life just because they are genetic failures is a horrible option that I don't think society is prepared to accept either.

I am all for attempting to remedy the situation in the least restrictive manner possible. However, at a certain point when such an individual becomes a serious danger to other people then other people should be protected from him.

Yes, that might mean locking him up for the rest of his life. I agree, that's not a good solution, even if it is the least bad alternative. Even then, it would be preferable if we made that incarceration at least somewhat comfortable. I am in no way advocating a bare concrete cell and no contact whatsoever with other people because that's torture, really.

I'm not sure what sort of role one could devise for such a person that would be both rewarding to the individual, harmless to others, and useful to the rest of society.

Aren't we still physiologically torturing him by the sheer virtue of locking such a person up, no matter how nice the prison is? In this case, a person like Elliot would fully understand that locking him up is the biggest confirmation he can get that he is worthless to society. While he might not be able to harm others, this would likely increase his desire to self-destruct and developed serious suicidal tendencies.

We as a society has just made his living hell a reality no matter how physically comfortable the cell is. That to me is serious torture.

[xerex]

I.... Getting the feeling in this thread that we're ignoring how.... Crippling loneliness can be for a human being and how destructive it can be, to self or others.

You know, from what I picked up by descending into the pit of vipers that are boards dedicated to loveshies and other such specimen, those people are probably lonely because they are incredibly immature, repulsive and obnoxious which tends to put other people off. Maybe, just maybe being a passive-aggressive asshole with severe entitlement issues is the real problem here and something for the loveshies themselves to work on?

But there's hardly anything that society is doing to actually aid these people in a positive way. The majority of them already have problems socialising, and if society is going to tell them to fuck themselves, why would these people change for the better? It would just reinforce the perception about the rest of society is against them.

As was stated earlier on this thread. the big problem these people have is that they view women as essentially NPCs. They have a very "primitive" view of human relationships. A + B = C . All they have to do is say the right phrase, find the right magical object, do the right action.........and the gates of heaven will open themselves up.

So they do what they think is the required action.....and it doesnt work.....repeatedly. Obviously it means that the game is broken, some bad coding error. But this game is LIFE. And they cant just switch cartridges. And they cant turn the game off. .....which lead them to "run amok"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok

Amok originated from the Malay/Indonesian word mengamuk, which when roughly defined means “to make a furious and desperate charge”.[5] According to Malay/Indonesian culture, amok was rooted in a deep spiritual belief.[6] They believed that amok was caused by the hantu belian,[7] which was an evil tiger spirit that entered one’s body and caused the heinous act. As a result of the belief, those in Indonesian culture tolerated amok and dealt with the after effects with no ill will towards the assailant.[8]

.... the phrase is particularly associated with a specific sociopathic culture-bound syndrome in Malaysian culture. In a typical case of running amok, an individual (often male), having shown no previous sign of anger or any inclination to violence, will acquire a weapon (traditionally a sword or dagger, but presently any of a variety of weapons) and in a sudden frenzy, will attempt to kill or seriously injure anyone he encounters and himself...

A widely accepted explanation links amok with male honor (amok by women is virtually unknown).[12] Running amok would thus be both a way of escaping the world (since perpetrators were normally killed) and re-establishing one's reputation as a man to be feared and respected.

It really takes a big mind shift to realize that the reason you are having trouble finding a girl is because you are NOT a nice guy.

That is mind boggling to people who have been raised on Adam Sandler style comedies. Not singling Sandler out he's just the major example in my head now.

This may be projection on my part but it was a revelation to me when it was pointed out that I was a selfish self absorbed whiny brat. I'm generally low key, talkative when approached and intelligent so people have no trouble talking to me. But I am self absorbed and unreliable and it shows . I dont INTEND to be that way......but I am. Which prevents deeper relationships from being formed.

I only approached extremely attractive women and ignored even average girls. And this gets noticed. Even when I'm around attractive girls I dont look out for them eg One time we got into a tiff and I walked away leaving them at a bus stop in a foreign country. Another time when we were driving in several cars. I didnt follow the girls car. I drove past them and went on my own. And it never occurred to me that I was doing something which was affecting how I was being viewed as as a MAN.

And of course the unconscious body movements. Licking my lips when ever I see an attractive girl is off putting, staring is also creepy....but I didnt even know I was doing it.

[Lagmonster]

Society in general doesn't really help a person who is already on the road to creepville; beleaguered mothers will whine at their kids for not having 'found someone'. Peers will belittle you if you can't get laid, or worse, if you reject sex (go ahead and try rejecting the obvious advances of an attractive woman, young man. In my peer group as a youth, a guy saying no to sex was socially unacceptable, and even popularly considered impossible). Failure at romance is equated with general failure at life. And nobody in a movie is ever shown to be both single and happy. We send a message to these guys that they are losers no matter how successful they are otherwise.

[Morilore]

This person did not commit those crimes because he was lonely or sexually desperate. He fits perfectly into the pattern of young men trying to valorize their sense of personal grandiosity in a storm of deadly violence. Throwing women at him would not have cured his hypertrophied entitlement complex. Indeed, those women would likely have become his first victims.

[xerex]

This person did not commit those crimes because he was lonely or sexually desperate. He fits perfectly into the pattern of young men trying to valorize their sense of personal grandiosity in a storm of deadly violence. Throwing women at him would not have cured his hypertrophied entitlement complex. Indeed, those women would likely have become his first victims.

I tend to believe what the killer says is his reason for killing. At a minimum its what HE believes is his motivation.

A widely accepted explanation links amok with male honor (amok by women is virtually unknown).[12] Running amok would thus be both a way of escaping the world (since perpetrators were normally killed) and re-establishing one's reputation as a man to be feared and respected.

Society hasnt exactly created a safe zone for a man who fails to live up to his own expectations. We dont say maybe youre being unrealistic. Maybe you dont have the mental resources for that. Maybe you should aim lower. Maybe youre the wrong person.

Society says "get er done"

[Darmalus]

I'm curious about the idea that the number of social misfits is increasing. If as ray245 mentioned there is a trackable increase, this may be the first of a general increase of misfits going out in a blaze or murder.

It also makes me wonder why the number would be increasing. Were they always there, but gender equality removed the ability to just take what they want? Or something else changed and many aren't adapting?

[Broomstick]

The problem is that if a woman such as myself talks to a guy like this she risks making herself a target. If I could safely engage in some sort of interaction with such a person I would be willing to do so but I'm not willing to risk being made into a player in whatever murderous psychotic fantasy such a person might concoct.

I try very hard to treat/interact with the weird and awkward like normal people, but at a certain level the CreeperMeter is a danger warning.

True, but in the worst case scenario you can always slug him with a roll of quarters or knee him in the balls. Though I admit this is a somewhat different problem if there's a non-trivial chance of him having a gun under his coat.

I live in America. There is ALWAYS a non-trivial chance of gun under anyone's coat.

[Broomstick]

Aren't we still physiologically torturing him by the sheer virtue of locking such a person up, no matter how nice the prison is?

You are sure as hell torturing the women in society by NOT locking up someone who has demonstrated targeting and killing women for the "crime" of him not getting laid.

Sure, it's bad for the rabid dog that we lock him up or put him down, but it's bad for everyone else to let a rabid dog spread rabies and kill people. Likewise, yeah, bad we lock up a spree killer but it's worse if we let someone like that run free to injure/maim/kill others.

Bottom line - we're not locking such a person up to punish them as much as we're locking him up to protect everyone else. The alternative is to kill him to prevent more deaths. On the other hand, if we lock him up and he kills himself I'm not going to shed a lot of tears over him.

[Elfdart]

I'm curious about the idea that the number of social misfits is increasing. If as ray245 mentioned there is a trackable increase, this may be the first of a general increase of misfits going out in a blaze or murder.

It also makes me wonder why the number would be increasing. Were they always there, but gender equality removed the ability to just take what they want? Or something else changed and many aren't adapting?

Murder overall is on a downward swing. As for this kind of lunatic spree killing, it's been fairly common for a long time, but the killers usually disappear down the Memory Hole unless there was something extraordinary about the crime or the victim(s). For example, Lee Harvey Oswald was a narcissistic attention whore who felt inadequate when even his Russian bride of convenience went on and on about how handsome John F. Kennedy was. If Kennedy had been a teacher instead of President, then Oswald's killings would have faded from memory pretty quickly.

In other words, we've always had fucktards who turn violent, and probably always will. One suggestion from a shrink on CNN the other night was a good one: If you're prescribed certain drugs (esp. narcotics and psychiatric drugs) then you are restricted from filling that order at more than one pharmacy -no double-dipping. The pharmacist can be held responsible if he or she dispenses 30 roxicet pills after another pharmacist has done so. That's why they're all verified by phone, fax or e-mail from the doctor's office. The same should hold true for some psychiatric drugs and guns.

[Ralin]

One suggestion from a shrink on CNN the other night was a good one: If you're prescribed certain drugs (esp. narcotics and psychiatric drugs) then you are restricted from filling that order at more than one pharmacy -no double-dipping. The pharmacist can be held responsible if he or she dispenses 30 roxicet pills after another pharmacist has done so. That's why they're all verified by phone, fax or e-mail from the doctor's office. The same should hold true for some psychiatric drugs and guns.

Why is this supposed to be a good idea? Because it means they have to see their psychiatrist that much more often or something?

Because speaking as someone who does take various psychiatric drugs I can tell you that the upshot will be that many more people having to go unhealthy stretches of time without their meds when they run out.

[Simon_Jester]

It's hard to imagine a man whose inner thoughts are this misogynistic*, and who is somehow managing to outwardly act like a normal, functional human when talking to real women. Certainly I can't imagine him keeping up the act for any real length of time when inwardly he's furious and bitter at women for not throwing themselves at him.

It's unlikely but it is possible. Let me introduce you to Ted Bundy.

Ted Bundy could be this crazy on the inside and still somehow not set off people's creepometer. But... let's be honest, Ted Bundy wouldn't have been complaining about his inability to get laid. That wasn't his problem.

Bundy was a serial killer, but not this serial killer. He killed people because he liked it, not because he was upset over their failure to provide him with sex.

What I really should have said it's that it's hard to imagine anyone who thinks like this guy specifically failing to set off creepometers

Simon, Zaune, I love your idea of MRAs/PUAs treating women like NPCs. If I develop and repeat this idea, how would you like me to attribute you both for its inception and initial development?

Don't bother attributing anything to me, I just developed Zaune's idea along obvious lines. Anyone worth a damn, if willing to put fifteen minutes' thought into the matter, could have done it. Assuming they had any video game experience, of course. I can't ask credit for that.

Zaune can decide what credit (if any) he wants for himself.

How about something like "Social education" then? That would basically try to teach the kids on how to behave in the society and in social situations. Granted that might still annoy certain people politically (perhaps a different, even more vague name?), and I'm not sure how well would US schools teach that.

The problem is that not everyone needs it, and the people who need it the most need it different than anyone else. It's like having special classes on how to cope with having ADHD; obviously there are people who need them, and I can name two or three twitchy, twitchy children off the top of my head who'd benefit. But if you make everyone sit through them a lot of them will feel like the class is a waste of time, and be right... and if you publicly single out the kids who need it, you humiliate them by identifying them as the weirdos.

How would you do this at a typical school, have the guidance counselors round up all the weird or badly behaved kids and stuff them in a classroom together? What if there are several different subgroups in there who have different problems that need different treatment?

True, but in the worst case scenario you can always slug him with a roll of quarters or knee him in the balls. Though I admit this is a somewhat different problem if there's a non-trivial chance of him having a gun under his coat.

No, the worst case scenario is that he physically overpowers you because he slugged you. You may not get to decide to initiate the violence.

Or (in Broomy's case) you might even decide to initiate the violence and lose; how often do you consider that you might start a fight and lose? In a woman like Broomy's case this is very relevant, because you really have to think twice about starting a fight with him, if he's a testosterone-fueled loony in his twenties and you are an ordinary-sized woman with no special combat training. Because if you lose, he thinks he can do whatever he wants. Then he drags you into the bushes and rapes you and hopefully doesn't beat or kill you if you're lucky.

Or assume there is no violent confrontation. Worst case scenario, he gets obsessed, finds out where you live, breaks into your home, rapes and beats you.

Or, he gets obsessed, starts stalking you. You have to totally rearrange your life to escape him for fear of triggering the "raped and beaten" scenario.

These things actually happen to real women. In my humble opinion, it is probable that at least one woman in America is beaten or killed because of something like this every day. Actually, I'd bet dozens of women end up tragically suffering because of psychos obsessed with them every day in America, but I'm being conservative. Given that we have something like 100 to 200 thousand rapes a year in the US, I'm being very conservative.

Aren't we still physiologically torturing him by the sheer virtue of locking such a person up, no matter how nice the prison is? In this case, a person like Elliot would fully understand that locking him up is the biggest confirmation he can get that he is worthless to society. While he might not be able to harm others, this would likely increase his desire to self-destruct and developed serious suicidal tendencies.

We as a society has just made his living hell a reality no matter how physically comfortable the cell is. That to me is serious torture.

The blunt fact is, he's not just useless to society, he's actively dangerous. If he won't seek appropriate help, and isn't willing to stretch his mind far enough for therapists to engage with him, and if he's a danger to other people...

This is a textbook example of why we have mental institutions in the first place, and why sometimes you can't just check yourself out of a mental hospital. Some people are sufficiently irrational and deranged that they are a threat to the lives and health of other people. No matter how much you sympathize with them, you can't just let them wander around as free-range predators.

[Starglider]

You are sure as hell torturing the women in society by NOT locking up someone who has demonstrated targeting and killing women for the "crime" of him not getting laid.

What is 'demonstrated' in this context? Obviously we lock people up for murder, attempted murder and impose lesser punnishments for stalking and threatening beahvior. This doesn't do anything to prevent suicidal spree killers with no previous criminal background, which was the case here.

What we don't do is lock people up for expressing unfocused hate and rage on blogs, forums etc. We do have hate speech laws and in a few extreme cases of persistent, public advocacy of violence the author is censored and prosecuted. Generally though it would be unconstitutional (freedom of speech), hopelessly impractical (the US already has the highest incarceration rate of any major nation) and generally counterproductive to lock up everyone spewing hate onto the Internet. And if you did, all that would happen is that they use code words, private forums, physical meet-ups or just keep it a secret, stewing in private until the day (a small fraction of them) snap.

As usual for these spree killings, I have to say that it is not a statistically signifcant cause of death and generally we should not be basing policy decisions on a handful of national-news-worthy incidents. Some of the suggestions here are good in that they also help with the much more common & typical modes of violence and abuse, but contorting the entire legal system and basis of society to try and pre-empty a handful of psychos is a silly, sensationalist response.