2 Gunmen Killed Outside 'Draw the Prophet' Show

[Alyrium Denryle]

Part of it is that I disagree that the cartoon drawers want to provoke violence. I know there are agitators and anti-Muslim bigots in the mix, but obviously they don't really want to get killed or maimed over a cartoon. I take most of them at their word that they are angry about terroristic violence.

Angry? Of course they are. They are angry enough to spill over into Hate Group territory. The point was not to get killed or maimed. If they did this intentionally, they were not trying to martyr themselves, the spent a shit load on security. They were trying to provoke *something* they knew could get violent in order to score political points and validate their bigotry in the public eye.

Its like... god... Terrorism By Proxy

It's more offensive, but it would probably be less provocative.

So? Does the logic of the analogy fail, or are you just picking nits?

Said moderate would be a liberal in many muslim societies, except perhaps in the West. Organizers or producers of such material regardless of religious affiliation can and will be one of the following in many other muslim societies:

How is that relevant? This happened in the US, and the AFDI targets muslims living in the west, alleging that they and extremists in Syria (for example) are one and the same ideologically--with the western muslims just being more insidious about it.

It is worth mentioning that christians in the developing world behave in a similar fashion to muslims in the developing world, and there are no developed world majority muslim countries.

The problematic assumption being used here is that doing a thing someone tells you they will kill you for is "trying to get a violent reaction" instead of "defying unreasonable demands" and telling assholes to "go fuck themselves."

Good job missing the point. Defying unreasonable demands and trying to get a violent reaction are two different intents. I am proposing that the AFDI is engaged in the latter. Charlie Hebdo (for example) was engaged in the former.

There had been no particular controversy regarding Cartooning Mohammad in the greater DFW area other than to simply note the bigotry, the local muslims there are used to being harassed, hate crimed etc by individuals and pressure groups like the AFDI. They cannot even have a "Lets stand against terrorism" conference without massive bigoted protests.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Thousa ... 36351.html

And there is the AFDI, holding a Mohammed Cartooning event, in that community. They were not trying to defy unreasonable demands, because no unreasonable demands were ever made in that community. They were trying to start shit. And Even Then, the local community did not react negatively. The shooters were from Arizona. Now, the muslim community of DFW is suffering the backlash.

[Simon_Jester]

I cannot consider it dishonorable to do something that you know will attract terrorists, when the terrorists themselves are in the wrong. At least, not if everyone who's going to be there is aware that there is a terrorist threat.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I cannot consider it dishonorable to do something that you know will attract terrorists, when the terrorists themselves are in the wrong. At least, not if everyone who's going to be there is aware that there is a terrorist threat.

Lets put it like this. If I am right (and I dont know if I am, this is a suspicion on my part, because I lived in the area for 6 years and interacted with the muslim community and the local islamophobes extensively), they did something they knew would attract terrorists, so that they could use that as political leverage in order to politically attack and marginalize non-terrorists. Maybe they were hoping for a beating and a high profile arrest from one of the locals rather than an attempted shooting from an outsider and they got more than they bargained for. But at the end of the day, if I am right, we can predict that in the future they will shamelessly utilize the attack to say "Gaze upon Islamists trying to silence Free Speech/Freedom/Impose Islam on you and your family, do not let them build a mosque in your community" or something to that effect.

[Simon_Jester]

If that was planned in advance, then the intent is dishonorable, though the act in itself is not.

[Ralin]

And it seems just as likely to me that their intent boiled down to "Let's publicly mock Islamists and to a lesser extent Muslims in general" (probably phrased more offensively) and that they didn't expect anything beyond the sweet, sweet outrage of people they don't like. Though that too is just speculation.

[jwl]

They brought it on themselves. Willingly. As in "lets see if we can prove a political point by doing something we know might attract a violent person from out of the wood work of their religion". Even if they did not, they are still dicks. What with being a hate group and all. They are dicks independently of their little cartoon contest.

The security guard who got shot in the leg didn't bring it on himself.

[Alyrium Denryle]

They brought it on themselves. Willingly. As in "lets see if we can prove a political point by doing something we know might attract a violent person from out of the wood work of their religion". Even if they did not, they are still dicks. What with being a hate group and all. They are dicks independently of their little cartoon contest.

The security guard who got shot in the leg didn't bring it on himself.

No he didn't. But we are not talking about him, but rather the people he was protecting and the target of the attack.

[Zadius]

Part of it is that I disagree that the cartoon drawers want to provoke violence. I know there are agitators and anti-Muslim bigots in the mix, but obviously they don't really want to get killed or maimed over a cartoon. I take most of them at their word that they are angry about terroristic violence.

Angry? Of course they are. They are angry enough to spill over into Hate Group territory. The point was not to get killed or maimed. If they did this intentionally, they were not trying to martyr themselves, the spent a shit load on security. They were trying to provoke *something* they knew could get violent in order to score political points and validate their bigotry in the public eye.

Its like... god... Terrorism By Proxy

I doubt they expected an attack, but they knew the probability was high enough to justify lots of security. Neither of us are mind readers though; I can only judge them by their actions and drawing cartoons obviously should not provoke that kind of response.

It's more offensive, but it would probably be less provocative.

So? Does the logic of the analogy fail, or are you just picking nits?

No it fails because I would not accept that defense if someone was shot for denying the Holocaust. Or who killed someone who tried to kill him for denying the Holocaust. Should the judge call him a "real jerk" at least, while he gets acquitted due to self-defense?

There had been no particular controversy regarding Cartooning Mohammad in the greater DFW area other than to simply note the bigotry, the local muslims there are used to being harassed, hate crimed etc by individuals and pressure groups like the AFDI. They cannot even have a "Lets stand against terrorism" conference without massive bigoted protests.

You mean aside from the general death threat that is on everyone's head in the DFW area (as if it was limited to there) if you draw a cartoon? And aside from the massively successful intimidation campaign by Muslim extremists which has caused even Fox News, home of the crazies, not to show the pictures. Hell, it makes me want to draw Muhammad myself in sheer defiance and I wouldn't otherwise give a shit.

[Channel72]

Drawing Mohammed is fine - I couldn't care less about the sensibilities of radicalized idiots. In fact, we should probably keep drawing him as much as possible so radical Muslims become desensitized, or at least self-implode in a fit of religious rage.

But I really don't like the AFDI either. They're a bunch of xenophobes who exist for no reason other than to incite hate and fear of Islam. They are totally counter-productive, and their existence is far more threatening to the millions of innocent, non-radical or non-practicing American Muslims than Jihadist fanatics are to most Americans living in the continental US.

That said ... Jesus Christ, I have never seen a bunch of stupider, more easily manipulated, pathetic morons than these two clueless buffoons who tried to shoot up the drawing contest. They literally could NOT have done anything more against their own interests - playing right into the hands of the AFDI. I wonder what they were talking about during the drive there from Arizona? "This is gonna be so awesome! We're gonna show those infidels not to fuck with Allah! Yeah! Okay, let's stop at the next Arby's for a restroom break."

I mean... I just... just... holy shit what a bunch of fucking idiots. I really feel sorry for the Muslims in Texas who are going to suffer increased discrimination because of this.

[Metahive]

Drawing Mohammed is fine - I couldn't care less about the sensibilities of radicalized idiots. In fact, we should probably keep drawing him as much as possible so radical Muslims become desensitized, or at least self-implode in a fit of religious rage.

But I really don't like the AFDI either. They're a bunch of xenophobes who exist for no reason other than to incite hate and fear of Islam. They are totally counter-productive, and their existence is far more threatening to the millions of innocent, non-radical or non-practicing American Muslims than Jihadist fanatics are to most Americans living in the continental US.

That said ... Jesus Christ, I have never seen a bunch of stupider, more easily manipulated, pathetic morons than these two clueless buffoons who tried to shoot up the drawing contest. They literally could NOT have done anything more against their own interests - playing right into the hands of the AFDI. I wonder what they were talking about during the drive there from Arizona? "This is gonna be so awesome! We're gonna show those infidels not to fuck with Allah! Yeah! Okay, let's stop at the next Arby's for a restroom break."

I mean... I just... just... holy shit what a bunch of fucking idiots. I really feel sorry for the Muslims in Texas who are going to suffer increased discrimination because of this.

Do you really think whatever muslim hatepreacher mobilized those two losers was primarily concerned with the "blasphemy"? That was at most a bonus objective, the true aim has most probably been to create more mistrust and animosity between Muslims and non-Muslims. So no, it wasn't stupid and counter-productive for those fuckers at all. It was exactly what they and the rightards of the AFDI hoped to achieve. When it comes to making the world a shittier place to live in, shitheads the world over will work hand in hand.

[SAMAS]

If that was planned in advance, then the intent is dishonorable, though the act in itself is not.

That's what they have been saying. This reads like a case of a bunch of (so-far) nonviolent extremist assholes doing something dickish and attracting violent extremist assholes.

[Ralin]

Drawing Mohammed is fine - I couldn't care less about the sensibilities of radicalized idiots. In fact, we should probably keep drawing him as much as possible so radical Muslims become desensitized, or at least self-implode in a fit of religious rage.

But I really don't like the AFDI either. They're a bunch of xenophobes who exist for no reason other than to incite hate and fear of Islam. They are totally counter-productive, and their existence is far more threatening to the millions of innocent, non-radical or non-practicing American Muslims than Jihadist fanatics are to most Americans living in the continental US.

That said ... Jesus Christ, I have never seen a bunch of stupider, more easily manipulated, pathetic morons than these two clueless buffoons who tried to shoot up the drawing contest. They literally could NOT have done anything more against their own interests - playing right into the hands of the AFDI. I wonder what they were talking about during the drive there from Arizona? "This is gonna be so awesome! We're gonna show those infidels not to fuck with Allah! Yeah! Okay, let's stop at the next Arby's for a restroom break."

I mean... I just... just... holy shit what a bunch of fucking idiots. I really feel sorry for the Muslims in Texas who are going to suffer increased discrimination because of this.

Do you really think whatever muslim hatepreacher mobilized those two losers was primarily concerned with the "blasphemy"? That was at most a bonus objective, the true aim has most probably been to create more mistrust and animosity between Muslims and non-Muslims. So no, it wasn't stupid and counter-productive for those fuckers at all. It was exactly what they and the rightards of the AFDI hoped to achieve. When it comes to making the world a shittier place to live in, shitheads the world over will work hand in hand.

Quite possibly, yes. Religious people really do act off motivations like that, weird as it may seem. Especially the ones sufficiently into it to call for killing whatever it is they designate as the enemy. I have no trouble believing that there was no strategic thought put into this beyond "Let us teach these blasphemers that they cannot mock Allah's prophet like this!"

Or maybe they didn't. I don't know. But it's a more than sufficient explanation.