Situation in Paris

[AMT]

My condolences to those who've been affected by these attacks.
On a somewhat selfish note I was supposed to be in Paris last night too. I was in Japan and was supposed to fly back via air France with an overnight layover in Paris. I'm sure I wouldn't have been in the middle of the attacks but damn it feels like a close save...

[Crown]

Well this isn't going to be pretty;

Attacker with Syrian passport 'passed through Greece'

The holder of a Syrian passport found near the body of one of the gunmen who died in Friday night’s attacks in Paris passed though Greece in October, a Greek minister told Reuters.

“The holder of the passport passed through the island of Leros on October 3, 2015, where he was identified according to EU rules,” said Nikos Toscas, Greece’s deputy minister in charge of policing.

A Greek police source told Reuters that European countries had been asked to check the passport holder to see if they had been registered.

Syrian passports are known to be valuable currency amongst those trying to enter Europe, and it is not confirmed yet whether the holder of the passport is indeed the perpetrator.

[Metahive]

I just picked an arbitrary number. You forgot to add that witty nickname for me, comicalali?

Uh-huh. You just picked a random year. You couldn't be arsed to actually put some effort behind your argument even though doing so would have been very easy considering the subject matter. You see, this sort of lazy sloppiness is why I gave you that nickname in the first place, CoSmical Ali.

[Block]

Hmm.

You made a fair point about catching people fleeing, I suppose (though from what I've read, all those who took part in the attacks are dead), though I'm afraid it will be used as a pretext to perpetually close the borders against refugees.

But a nationwide state of emergency? I could understand declaring one in the area of Paris, certainly. But nationwide?

Then again, I suppose France is a relatively small nation, territorially.

Remember that declaring a state of emergency mostly means you get to call up all sorts of extra reserves that you wouldn't normally be able to access. States in the US do it for every large winter storm to get access to Federal relief funds. It's temporary and not nearly as sinister as you seem to be thinking.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well this isn't going to be pretty;

Attacker with Syrian passport 'passed through Greece'

The holder of a Syrian passport found near the body of one of the gunmen who died in Friday night’s attacks in Paris passed though Greece in October, a Greek minister told Reuters.

“The holder of the passport passed through the island of Leros on October 3, 2015, where he was identified according to EU rules,” said Nikos Toscas, Greece’s deputy minister in charge of policing.

A Greek police source told Reuters that European countries had been asked to check the passport holder to see if they had been registered.

Syrian passports are known to be valuable currency amongst those trying to enter Europe, and it is not confirmed yet whether the holder of the passport is indeed the perpetrator.

What a perfect pretext for every nationalist, xenophobe, and Neo-Nazi.

I fear that a lot of innocent people are going to be punished for this.

I fear that the western world will repeat the mistakes made after 911.

I fear NATO will put ground troops in Syria and trigger a war with Russia.

I fear that the response to this attack will cripple all but the most militant Right wing politics.

This is a horrific attack, and a strong response is necessary. Anger and fear are understandable. But this should not become a pretext to destroy ourselves.

[cmdrjones]

Not giving fuckers like this publicity is what experts usually recommend. Unfortunately that is impossible because news companies want money.

ps: Terrorists kill very few people over a long period of time. So fuck it.

Fuck you coward

Edit: I take that back, that should have been: Fuck off, Traitorous coward.

[cmdrjones]

I'm avoiding social media tonight due the inevitable deluge of blaming Islam / immigrants / non-whites for this tragedy.

Don't worry, Terrrr-ists gonna terrr-ist... the truly responsible parties are the ones who flung the gates open in the first place.

[cmdrjones]

The wave of hatred (including outright advocating genocide on a scale surpassing any other in history) I've seen across much of the internet following the attacks in Paris is sickening.

And yet, I'm called every name in the book for pointing this out, predicting it would get worse and imploring people to stop the wholesale importation of people who may very well do things like this... being that they HAVE JUST DONE IT.

Denial aint just a river in Egypt....
Ask yourself if the ACTUAL murder of 130+ persons in paris is more or less sickening than people being outraged about murder on twitter....

[Zaune]

And yet, I'm called every name in the book for pointing this out, predicting it would get worse and imploring people to stop the wholesale importation of people who may very well do things like this... being that they HAVE JUST DONE IT.

Are you seriously trying to imply that every Syrian refugee is a potential terrorist?

[The Romulan Republic]

And yet, I'm called every name in the book for pointing this out, predicting it would get worse and imploring people to stop the wholesale importation of people who may very well do things like this... being that they HAVE JUST DONE IT.

"If only we gave the bigots what they want, that would solve bigotry".

And "they" have not done this. This was not a crime committed by all refugees, Middle Easterners, or Muslims. Or one one thousandth of them. Every group has some scumbags, and we can't punish them all. And we both know you would never apply that kind of collective guilty to your own people.

Fuck off.

Denial aint just a river in Egypt....
Ask yourself if the ACTUAL murder of 130+ persons in paris is more or less sickening than people being outraged about murder on twitter....

130 dead people is, of course, a terrible thing. But widespread public support for xenophobia could kill far more people in the long run. Only idiots and liars neglect the big picture.

And that you characterize calls for genocide as "...people being outraged about murder on twitter..." shows exactly where your sympathies lie, Nazi.

As for your attempt to shame me into silence by suggesting that because I oppose bigotry and genocide, I do not care enough about the victims of the Paris attacks, go fuck yourself.

And Zaune, of course he is. That's what fascists do.

Edited to fix the quotes.

[Batman]

Technically, he/she/it is right. Those refugees are potential terrorists...same as everybody else. All that is required for you to be a potential terrorist is for you to exist. What cmdrbrainsofadeadgerbil is saying is that they're all probably terrorists by virtue of being muslims...while as usual not providing any evidence for his delusions.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And yet, I'm called every name in the book for pointing this out, predicting it would get worse and imploring people to stop the wholesale importation of people who may very well do things like this... being that they HAVE JUST DONE IT.

Are you seriously trying to imply that every Syrian refugee is a potential terrorist?

That is exactly what he is doing. He also seems to think that the best possible option is to permit millions of people to die, or languish in refugee camps without the possibility of ever regaining something that resembles a normal life.

He is human trash, in other words.

[The Romulan Republic]

Technically, he/she/it is right. Those refugees are potential terrorists...same as everybody else. All that is required for you to be a potential terrorist is for you to exist. What cmdrbrainsofadeadgerbil is saying is that they're all probably terrorists by virtue of being muslims...while as usual not providing any evidence for his delusions.

That's more or less right.

You know who can also potentially be terrorists?

Right wing bigots.

[Tribble]

Unfortunately when you have hundreds of thousands of refugees entering Europe, it should come as no surprise that terrorists would take advantage of the situation. The refugee crisis is a win/win for terrorists. If France or other EU countries close their borders, then they will be seen as the villains both at home and aboard. If they don't close their borders, then inevitably some terrorists will get through because it's virtually impossible to have in depth security precautions for hundreds of thousands of people coming into Europe all at once. Sadly I am not in the least bit surprised that this attack happened, if anything the surprise was that it took so long. And before some idiot decides to call me a racist fascist bigot etc etc, please keep in mind that I am all for accepting refugees, I'm merely pointing out that it was a guarantee that terrorists were going to exploit the crisis to the fullest.

What do we do about it? What is the best long term solution? Should we simply continue to accept refugees, and go no further than that? If we decide on a military option. do we simply try to contain groups like ISIS and keep them from spreading, or we put as many boots on the ground as need for however many decades it takes to stabilise the entire region? Should we involve other Middle-Eastern states, and if so, to what degree? Is a long term solution even possible, or are things inevitably going to spiral out of control no matter what we do?

[Batman]

Um...since I said everybody is a potential terrorist they would be automatically included?

[Tribble]

Um...since I said everybody is a potential terrorist they would be automatically included?

You're absolutely right, everyone is a potential terrorist, though I don't know where you are going with that. Are you suggesting that actual terrorists would not exploit a refugee crisis to the fullest? Or are you replying to someone else's post?

[The Romulan Republic]

Their are almost certainly some terrorists among the refugees. However, it would be vile to condemn or mistrust the entire group because of that. Their is no major religion, race, or nation, I expect, that does not have some terrorists among its number. We can't condemn everyone because some of them are guilty.

As to what we should do...

I strongly oppose military action in Syria because of the risk of a conflict with Russia.

I think that some military involvement in Iraq to keep IS from overrunning the country is justifiable, but I will not go into details. I'm not entirely sure what the best policy is.

Diplomatic and humanitarian efforts in the Middle East should be stepped up.

As to the refugees, I think basic decency obligates us to help them as best we can. I think it is deeply shameful that the United States has not done more to this effect, though our new Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau seems to be taking a relatively good position: basically accepting 25,000 by the end of the year (if the US took the same number relative to its population, it would be taking about 250,000 in the next month and half).

Above all, we need to take a strong stand against internal bigotry, authoritarianism, and excessive militarism. IS is horrific and can kill a lot of people, and they must be fought, but they cannot destroy us. We can destroy ourselves, however.

[Grumman]

And yet, I'm called every name in the book for pointing this out, predicting it would get worse and imploring people to stop the wholesale importation of people who may very well do things like this... being that they HAVE JUST DONE IT.

Are you seriously trying to imply that every Syrian refugee is a potential terrorist?

Every Syrian refugee is a visitor from a country whose government we do not trust to hold its own people to a comparable standard to which we hold our own. If a Canadian wants to visit the United States, I trust the Canadian government enough to assume that somebody walking free in Canada is no more likely to be a mass murderer, a smuggler, or a carrier of some horrible plague than the average person already walking free in the United States. The Assad government's control of its own country is so weak that a bunch of card-carrying psychopaths like ISIL can openly found a murderous dictatorship without all getting arrested, and that is why we should not treat Syrian residency as if living there and not being in prison vouches for your character the same way living under English or German law does.

[Tribble]

Their are almost certainly some terrorists among the refugees. However, it would be vile to condemn or mistrust the entire group because of that. Their is no major religion, race, or nation, I expect, that does not have some terrorists among its number. We can't condemn everyone because some of them are guilty.

Just to be absolutely clear, I do not in any way suggest that we should condemn or mistrust the entire group because some terrorists will inevitably take advantage of the situation. I'm just pointing out that whether we like it or not terrorists are going to exploit the situation to the fullest and that makes things incredibly difficult. If the French government does absolutely nothing, then they will be seen as incapable/unwilling to protect their own citizens. If they do respond, no matter what the response is it's going to be seen as an attack on the refugees. And if the French citizens don't feel like their government is doing enough to protect them, they may take matters into their own hands. Not to mention all the extra tension this is going to cause between the native population and the refugees. It really is a good xanatos gambit on the terrorists' part as they will achieve some measure of success no matter what we do.

[Batman]

Um...since I said everybody is a potential terrorist they would be automatically included?

You're absolutely right, everyone is a potential terrorist, though I don't know where you are going with that. Are you suggesting that actual terrorists would not exploit a refugee crisis to the fullest? Or are you replying to someone else's post?

I was replying to TRR's 'You know who can also potentially be terrorists?
Right wing bigots.'

[The Romulan Republic]

Sorry Batman, their appears to have been a misunderstanding.

I know perfectly well that you were including pretty much everyone. I was just trying to emphasize that particular point.

Their are almost certainly some terrorists among the refugees. However, it would be vile to condemn or mistrust the entire group because of that. Their is no major religion, race, or nation, I expect, that does not have some terrorists among its number. We can't condemn everyone because some of them are guilty.

Just to be absolutely clear, I do not in any way suggest that we should condemn or mistrust the entire group because some terrorists will inevitably take advantage of the situation. I'm just pointing out that whether we like it or not terrorists are going to exploit the situation to the fullest and that makes things incredibly difficult. If the French government does absolutely nothing, then they will be seen as incapable/unwilling to protect their own citizens. If they do respond, no matter what the response is it's going to be seen as an attack on the refugees. And if the French citizens don't feel like their government is doing enough to protect them, they may take matters into their own hands. Not to mention all the extra tension this is going to cause between the native population and the refugees. It really is a good xanatos gambit on the terrorists' part as they will achieve some measure of success no matter what we do.

Well, sadly, their's no way to completely stop terrorists from doing horrible things in the short term. The question is what approach will best limit the damage, and what approach will give us the best chance of success in the long term, without sacrificing our most important principles.

As to how refugees should be treated, I get the impression that we're on the same page, at least broadly.

And yet, I'm called every name in the book for pointing this out, predicting it would get worse and imploring people to stop the wholesale importation of people who may very well do things like this... being that they HAVE JUST DONE IT.

Are you seriously trying to imply that every Syrian refugee is a potential terrorist?

Every Syrian refugee is a visitor from a country whose government we do not trust to hold its own people to a comparable standard to which we hold our own. If a Canadian wants to visit the United States, I trust the Canadian government enough to assume that somebody walking free in Canada is no more likely to be a mass murderer, a smuggler, or a carrier of some horrible plague than the average person already walking free in the United States. The Assad government's control of its own country is so weak that a bunch of card-carrying psychopaths like ISIL can openly found a murderous dictatorship without all getting arrested, and that is why we should not treat Syrian residency as if living there and not being in prison vouches for your character the same way living under English or German law does.

First of all, their are a lot of refugees from places other than Syria, of course.

Second of all, statistically, I think its safe to say that the vast majority of the refugees are not terrorists, and I don't like the idea of rejecting people on suspicion.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do background checks, but the truth is, we probably won't be sure that every person who comes isn't a terrorist. So then we have a choice- do we send people back to probable destitution or death on the chance that they might be guilty because of what country they come from, or do we accept a certain amount of risk in order to help people who need it? I'm not saying its an easy choice, but on the whole, I'd rather err on the side of openness and tolerance.

[cmdrjones]

And yet, I'm called every name in the book for pointing this out, predicting it would get worse and imploring people to stop the wholesale importation of people who may very well do things like this... being that they HAVE JUST DONE IT.

"If only we gave the bigots what they want, that would solve bigotry".

And "they" have not done this. This was not a crime committed by all refugees, Middle Easterners, or Muslims. Or one one thousandth of them. Every group has some scumbags, and we can't punish them all. And we both know you would never apply that kind of collective guilty to your own people.

Fuck off.

Denial aint just a river in Egypt....
Ask yourself if the ACTUAL murder of 130+ persons in paris is more or less sickening than people being outraged about murder on twitter....

130 dead people is, of course, a terrible thing. But widespread public support for xenophobia could kill far more people in the long run. Only idiots and liars neglect the big picture.

And that you characterize calls for genocide as "...people being outraged about murder on twitter..." shows exactly where your sympathies lie, Nazi.

As for your attempt to shame me into silence by suggesting that because I oppose bigotry and genocide, I do not care enough about the victims of the Paris attacks, go fuck yourself.

And Zaune, of course he is. That's what fascists do.

Edited to fix the quotes.

A. You are right, it only took 7 people to inflict 47 casualties apiece, but because it was only 7, then that means France should just let, how many in again? What's your suggestion for all this?
Also the Holocaust was a crime committed by not all Nazis or even one thousandth of them, so calling me a Nazi now has no effect. Thank you....
I never suggested punishing them... simply not granting foreigners the right to settle in your country is NOT a "punishment" douchenozzle.

B. oh, so 130 dead is a terrible thing, but we should be far more upset about potential calls for genocide rather than actual mass murder? I like how being more upset about actual crime and slaughter rather than engage in precrime badthink worry is being a "Nazi"
(Godwin's law! You lose!)

C. You oppose bigotry and genocide? well, that's nice... guess what led those 7 assholes to murder French people in large numbers? I bet it wasn't a burnt croissant!

D. I don't need to shame you into silence, you'd never have the self awareness to be ashamed of yourself. The whole Idea that I would attack you for "not caring enough" about group X, Y or Z is something trigger warning happy little SJWs do to one another for not being pure enough. It's not my style, trust me.

[Channel72]

The best way to keep this in perspective is to remember that most victims of ISIL are other Muslims. Moreso than the +100 Parisians who died this week, thousands of innocents in Raqqah and Mosul have to live everyday dealing with ISIL's bullshit - including constant public executions for the stupidest reasons.

Also, apparently the Russian airforce is currently bombing the shit out of Raqqah.

[Metahive]

Why refugees make for poor terrorists:

1.ISIS doesn't need refugees for infiltration, they have plenty of recruits from abroad with valid passports they can use for this.

2.Refugees are already under increased scrutiny

3.Refugees use unsafe and insecure routes to enter other countries. Why would ISIS risk losing their "assets" this way if they don't have to?

So refugees are actually less likely to commit terror attacks.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Also the Holocaust was a crime committed by not all Nazis or even one thousandth of them, so calling me a Nazi now has no effect. Thank you....
I never suggested punishing them... simply not granting foreigners the right to settle in your country is NOT a "punishment" douchenozzle.

1. Nazism is an ideology that inherently demanded the genocide of jews, romani, homosexuals, slavs and numerous other persons. Islam does not. So it makes little sense to use this analogy unless you wish to imply that it does. You will back that up fucking immediately. I will also point out that if that is your intention, your analogy works equally well with christians, who commit terrorist acts within the united states. By your logic, we should ALSO not admit the asylum claims of christians from foreign nations on the grounds that terrorism might well be committed by them.

2. Oh, you dont want them punished, you just want to see hundreds of thousands, nay millions of innocent people condemned to an existence of destitution and death.

Fuck you. You dont even have the self-awareness to be a Nazi. You are just a bigot who breaks your own knows during brown-people induced knee-spasms.