Going to vote now...

[MKSheppard]

I'm tired of reading from the NEA that the solution to our problems is
to throw more, more, more, more, more, and more money at our
schools to fix them.

Here in Montgomery County, MD, where I live, we have a $1.4
BILLION school budget, and yet they keep asking for more money.



http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/about/

[fgalkin]

I'm tired of reading from the NEA that the solution to our problems is
to throw more, more, more, more, more, and more money at our
schools to fix them.

Here in Montgomery County, MD, where I live, we have a $1.4
BILLION school budget, and yet they keep asking for more money.



http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/about/

They could give some of that money to the piss-poor NYC schools.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Queeb Salaron]

I'm tired of reading from the NEA that the solution to our problems is
to throw more, more, more, more, more, and more money at our
schools to fix them.

Here in Montgomery County, MD, where I live, we have a $1.4
BILLION school budget, and yet they keep asking for more money.

The reality of the situation is this: If schools had more money, they would attract more / better teachers. They could be more selective about the process of hiring these teachers, instead of simply grabbing the first kid they can find out of grad school. Also, with more money, these teachers could stay longer, as the school could afford pay raises as the teachers gain seniority and earn higher degrees (teachers get paid more for every degree they have earned). This would obviously benefit the students, as better teachers means more high-quality education.

But the students are not the only ones who would theoretically gain a better education. If aspiring teachers saw the amount of competition for these quick-filling jobs, they would naturally want to bump their qualifications up a notch or two to edge out the other competitors. The result? College students becoming SUPER-studious in order to obtain the resume needed to get these jobs. In essence, we'd be breeding TWO generations of more intelligent children, one in elementary school, and one aspiring to become teachers.

[MKSheppard]

The reality of the situation is this: If schools had more money, they would attract more / better teachers. They could be more selective about the process of hiring these teachers, instead of simply grabbing the first kid they can find out of grad school. .

BULLSHIT.

What they need to do is lower their standards. I wasn't quite impressed
with my teachers in general. Want to know why teachers keep getting
fucked? It's because in order to become a teacher in todays' environment,
they need lots of degrees from a university to just teach in elementary
school, and that needs $$$, which they will later have to repay...

[Darth Wong]

What they need to do is lower their standards. I wasn't quite impressed with my teachers in general. Want to know why teachers keep getting fucked? It's because in order to become a teacher in todays' environment, they need lots of degrees from a university to just teach in elementary school, and that needs $$$, which they will later have to repay...

Shep, grow the fuck up. Have you ever had the experience of dealing with your child's teachers? Of course not, since you have no kids and your only perspective on education is that of the problem child. The LAST thing we need is a bunch of morons with no postsecondary education teaching our kids.

The real problem is NOT that the standards are too high (perhaps the dumbest explanation I have ever heard for problems in the education system), but that teaching skill is not rewarded because of unionization (which forces schools to pay for seniority, not ability).

[Joe]

What they need to do is lower their standards.

Shep, good lord, I sympathize with your problems with the NEA, but this is just not a good idea.

[RedImperator]

I'm tired of reading from the NEA that the solution to our problems is
to throw more, more, more, more, more, and more money at our
schools to fix them.

Here in Montgomery County, MD, where I live, we have a $1.4
BILLION school budget, and yet they keep asking for more money.



http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/about/

There's a huge tangle of factors that cause schools to be simultaneously swimming in money (from the perspective of practically any other state or municipal program except Medicare) and strapped for cash. Insurance costs are outrageous for one, thanks to laws that make schools legally responsible for the safety and conduct of their students during the school day and a culture that sees lawsuits as a path to wealth. Administrative bloat, especially in inner-city districts that can afford it the least, wastes millions of dollars, and since practically every position within a school district from the janitor on up is unionized, there's constant upward pressure on salaries and benefits.

At the same time, the teachers, the only people in the entire system who are actually indispensible, are underpaid compared to professionals with their degrees in other fields. This applies especially to math and science teachers. If you spend four years studying chemistry, are you going to take a job at $20,000 a year teaching or spend two years in grad school and go to work for DuPont for $80,000? The only way to attract quality people--people, in other words, who wouldn't have tolerated you reading WWII books in class because their job was to teach you the subject at hand--is to spend money. Keeping them is a matter beyond the scope of this discussion.

I can see why someone would vote against a budget increase for the school board. Lower Merion Township, the local district where I live during the school year, rammed a huge property tax hike down the voters' throats to fund a glamour project (building a new high school) that incedentally will require the demolition of the old high school, a historial landmark. School boards are great for crying for more money "for the children!" and then using it to buy a company car for the superintendent or building a fancy facade on the high school (my home district wasted it on a new gym while they needed an entire new wing of classrooms to accomidate the increasing population of the township). But Falk started this thread by declaring he was voting against the budget increase specifically to screw over the fine arts department because he didn't care for the teachers or students in that department while he worked there, which would be the equivilant of me demanding my high school close down the wood and metal shops because I didn't like the students there. That's what's drawn the intense fire in this thread.

[Yogi]

The band teacher in my High School was really cool. He has a law degree from Stanford (or Harvard, I forget) but he gave up his law career because he really loved music.

Besides, arts and music is what makes life fun. Take that away and life will get extremely boring.

[Queeb Salaron]

BULLSHIT.

What they need to do is lower their standards. I wasn't quite impressed
with my teachers in general. Want to know why teachers keep getting
fucked? It's because in order to become a teacher in todays' environment,
they need lots of degrees from a university to just teach in elementary
school, and that needs $$$, which they will later have to repay...

Are you fucking serious? The problem with the school system is that their standards are too LOW. Any idiot with a BA and a teaching certificate can teach in public school. In fact, the education industry eats them up by the handfull because they simply don't have enough of them.

At the same time, the teachers, the only people in the entire system who are actually indispensible, are underpaid compared to professionals with their degrees in other fields. This applies especially to math and science teachers. If you spend four years studying chemistry, are you going to take a job at $20,000 a year teaching or spend two years in grad school and go to work for DuPont for $80,000? The only way to attract quality people--people, in other words, who wouldn't have tolerated you reading WWII books in class because their job was to teach you the subject at hand--is to spend money. Keeping them is a matter beyond the scope of this discussion.

Well, I can't say it any better than that. Though I have to say, Red, that your payment figures are a bit low... At least where I'm from. Teachers make about 40k a year, and the guys at Dupont make about 100k. I had a chem teacher who worked at Dupont for a while, and he gave us the numbers. He left teaching the year after he started because hte pay sucked for all the little brats he had to deal with. Or so he said. He was an asshole, so kids threw things at him. I don't blame him for leaving.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I sleep in there, and I am better in history than anyone else who has that teacher. And I am International Baccauleureate. Watch your comments.

There's a HUGE difference here, I.P.

Falk will NEVER be intelligent enough to be a Baccauleureate in anything at all, unless Nazis give out such recognitions to the skinhead with the highest bodycount at the end of a month. You can AFFORD to sleep in class. Falk, obviously, slept through the part of school where they discussed... well... ANYthing.

Well let's not get carried away. It isn't like I've always slept in class, the whole class, all the time.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I say this troll should be banned.

You're in over your head. Leave and calm down. At SD.net you take the flamage.

There's a difference between hilariously being a baiting prick and outright drooling dumbass trolling.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, grow the fuck up. Have you ever had the experience of dealing with your child's teachers? Of course not, since you have no kids and your only perspective on education is that of the problem child. The LAST thing we need is a bunch of morons with no postsecondary education teaching our kids.

Can't be any worse than it is currently. And for your information, I was
never the fucking problem child. I was the quiet little one sitting in the
back reading a book, rather than an ignorant loudmouth throwing shit
at the teacher, so shut up and stop making accusations about me.

I can understand the need for some sort of formalized education as
you get into the more complex subjects, such as high school chemistry,
but at the grade school level, seriously, all you're doing is babysitting
the kids and teaching them that 1+1 = 2. You don't need to be a rocket
scientist for THAT.

The NEA's constant whine for more and more standards for teachers
is a self-defeating cycle: it takes more money for the students studying
to be teachers to achieve those standards, and thusly, they can't make
it on a decent wage due to outrageous college bills.

Either way you slice or dice it, the teaching system in American schools
is seriously broken and in severe need of repair. It's a damn shame
too, since I had some good teachers in my old elementary school
who are still there, nearly 20 years after I went through their classes...

The new crop of teachers...I just don't know...

[Zaia]

RESPOND TO MY QUESTION, PLEASE.

[MKSheppard]

Falk, Shep.

It's clear that both of you just want to rant about an educational system because neither of you have the capability to actually appreciate anything not involving Nazis. I hope the both of you have fun flipping burgers or whatever it is you're going to be doing for the rest of your lives.

You're not the one having to pay for more money to be poured into
a school system in Montgomery County that already consumes
$1.4 BILLION, and yet they keep asking for more money...

[MKSheppard]

RESPOND TO MY QUESTION, PLEASE.

Who? Me, or Falk, or whatever?

[Darth Wong]

You're not the one having to pay for more money to be poured into a school system in Montgomery County that already consumes $1.4 BILLION, and yet they keep asking for more money...

How does that compare to the rest of government spending, and other major programs? Absolute figures are kind of meaningless unless one has familiarity with the rest of the budget and the total outlays, because I don't know how large Montgomery County is.

PS. The education system would be a lot better if there were some feedback mechanism. I have run into great teachers and absolutely shitty teachers, and there is one problem here: they both get paid the same.

[MKSheppard]

PS. The education system would be a lot better if there were some feedback mechanism. I have run into great teachers and absolutely shitty teachers, and there is one problem here: they both get paid the same.

Urgk....Don't get me started....

[RedImperator]

PS. The education system would be a lot better if there were some feedback mechanism. I have run into great teachers and absolutely shitty teachers, and there is one problem here: they both get paid the same.

Urgk....Don't get me started....

Me either. Of course, I've got special reason to dislike to seniority system--I'm going to be a victim of it in about 18 months.

[RedImperator]

PS. The education system would be a lot better if there were some feedback mechanism. I have run into great teachers and absolutely shitty teachers, and there is one problem here: they both get paid the same.

Urgk....Don't get me started....

Me either. Of course, I've got special reason to dislike the seniority system--I'm going to be a victim of it in about 18 months.

[RedImperator]

Ah, damn it. Durandal, could you nuke the first of those two posts please?

[Joe]

You're not the one having to pay for more money to be poured into a school system in Montgomery County that already consumes $1.4 BILLION, and yet they keep asking for more money...

How does that compare to the rest of government spending, and other major programs? Absolute figures are kind of meaningless unless one has familiarity with the rest of the budget and the total outlays, because I don't know how large Montgomery County is.

PS. The education system would be a lot better if there were some feedback mechanism. I have run into great teachers and absolutely shitty teachers, and there is one problem here: they both get paid the same.

Getting rid of tenure would help with this problem also.

[XPViking]

such as high school chemistry,
but at the grade school level, seriously, all you're doing is babysitting
the kids and teaching them that 1+1 = 2. You don't need to be a rocket
scientist for THAT.

No one is saying that a elementary school teacher is the same as a rocket scientist, but it does require training and education. Perhaps more than you realize or care to admit. Put down that copy of Kindergarten Cop and give it a shot.

XPViking

[RedImperator]

Getting rid of tenure would help with this problem also.

The idea behind tenure is to protect academics from pressure from the administration to stifle certain views the administration doesn't approve of. This is absolutely vital for college professors (though it's abused at that level, too). The teachers unions have, unfortunately, turned it into a tool for protecting incompetents by making it a hideously expensive, years-long process to fire teachers. About the only thing that can get a teacher fired quickly is some kind of sexual charge (harassment, abuse, or fucking a student). The unions are not and probably never have been interested in promoting good teaching by protecting good teachers from bad administrators (though in all fairness, they ARE good for that). They're interested in protecting ALL teachers from any kind of accountability, or at least any kind that could cost them their jobs. This makes perfect sense, from the union's standpoint, because a union's strength comes from protecting its membership numbers, not weeding out incompetence. Of course, a teacher's union is composed of teachers, and a great many of them are all for preserving the seniority system and protecting teachers from accountability.

There will not be reform from within the unions. Labor unions simply don't operate that way even in the direst of circumstances--look at how the steelworker's union slit its own throat by driving up labor costs to the point U.S. steel companies either went bankrupt or moved operations overseas. Fixing the system is going to take concerted political effort--the unions are going to have to have their backs broken. And it's going to be hard to make that effort, because the unions will scream "You hate children!" at anyone who tries, and that argument, sadly, works.

[Kuja]

Can't be any worse than it is currently.

Bullshit. If they lower their standards, as you suggest, it'll get worse. A lot worse.

I can understand the need for some sort of formalized education as
you get into the more complex subjects, such as high school chemistry,
but at the grade school level, seriously, all you're doing is babysitting
the kids and teaching them that 1+1 = 2. You don't need to be a rocket
scientist for THAT.

That's true, however, you DO need an ability to keep a schedule, an ability to operate with a large group of people, and a LARGE dose of patience.

[Kelly Antilles]

They've already lowered the standards. Teachers just can't TEACH anymore. They are told to teach the tests, period. And besides, I never said it was problem children that was the entire problem. I did mention the fact that the teacher is not allowed to actually teach something other than give them the answers to the test.