The Train Is Leaving the Station - By VD Hanson.

[TheDarkling]

You are correct that the UK and Germany both want CAP (Common Agriculture Policy) reform but old Tony was beaten to the punch at the last EU summit to discuss it and the French got to the Germans first and managed to sway them to the side which benefited France the most.

If you look at the actual net EU balance per nation it is -0.25% (of GDP) for the UK and -.10% for France and considering the almost identical states of the two economies it just shows you why the French are so happy with the current arrangement.

Germany operates at -0.47% by the way showing obviously why they would like to see the 40-50% of the EU's budget that is spent on agriculture subsidies to be slashed.

As for the reason why the UK (and the Germans who finance 25% of the EU) stay in it are because the trade advantages are just to good to give up, not to mention the various economy of scale benefits that allow EU co-ventures to compete with their US counter parts.

[The_Nice_Guy]

Looks like the French finally got their revenge on the Germans. Bleed them of money!

The Nice Guy

[TheDarkling]

Looks like the French finally got their revenge on the Germans. Bleed them of money!

Well that was the entire point of the EU (or its fore runners), since it was set up to make sure the various continental powers could keep Germany in check so they wouldn't go on an invasion spree again, only later was it to become France's way of tying to establish a French super power to counter balance the US (one of the reasons the French almost vetoed the UK's admission).

It is now the Germans own fault that every time Chirac asks them to go against their own interests they do so like some spineless....... Frenchman.. hmmm I wonder... .

[Stormbringer]

Looks like the French finally got their revenge on the Germans. Bleed them of money!

Well that was the entire point of the EU (or its fore runners), since it was set up to make sure the various continental powers could keep Germany in check so they wouldn't go on an invasion spree again, only later was it to become France's way of tying to establish a French super power to counter balance the US (one of the reasons the French almost vetoed the UK's admission).

It is now the Germans own fault that every time Chirac asks them to go against their own interests they do so like some spineless....... Frenchman.. hmmm I wonder... .

If they elect a short, Corsincan major overcompensation issues look out.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

This article isn't talking about America no longer needing permission from other countries to do things, it's talking about other countries needing America's permission to disagree with American policy. At least, the part I could force myself to read was; I didn't get far beyond that paragraph.

No, it's about the US stop pretending that these countries remain our allies or that they should have a say in US policy. Both sides should pursue their global agenda without bothering to pretend any loinger that it's not enlightened self interest.

And it never occurd to you that this attitude is why you have so many problems on the planet in the first place?

It isn't so much an attitude as an unchangeable fact of human existance, and one that, if recognized and worked in to maximize the gain of one's own nation, will at least cause a reduction in the suffering of your compatriots.

[Darth Wong]

No, it's about the US stop pretending that these countries remain our allies or that they should have a say in US policy. Both sides should pursue their global agenda without bothering to pretend any loinger that it's not enlightened self interest.

And it never occurd to you that this attitude is why you have so many problems on the planet in the first place?

It isn't so much an attitude as an unchangeable fact of human existance, and one that, if recognized and worked in to maximize the gain of one's own nation, will at least cause a reduction in the suffering of your compatriots.

And just how enlightened is this "enlightened self-interest?" Logically, it's actually in the USA's interest to install dictatorial regimes in third-world nations. A dictator is a single point of contact, relatively easy to control compared to a democratic nation where public opinion can shift with the prevailing wind. Why do you think the USA supported so many of them? Insanity? Hardly. It's because it suited their geopolitical interests.

Democracy can be a serious problem from a management standpoint, as they discovered in 1953 when a popular democratic leader in Iran started doing things they didn't like (hence the CIA-led coup), or for that matter, today in Saudi Arabia where it's no secret that a democratic election would promptly hurl rabidly anti-American ultra-conservative religious groups into power.

Look at Iraq; free and democratic elections are supposedly going to be encouraged there, but if the people decide they want a strong leader who will kick American corporations out of the country, seize their in-country assets, and rebuild Iraq's military, would the USA accept that? I seriously doubt it, although perhaps they're hoping that the Iraqi people would be sufficiently cowed by their military defeat not to anger their conquerors in such a manner. Foreign democracy is much more of a headache than foreign dictatorship.

So again, we are forced to ask: are there principles to be upheld, or just self-interest? And if it's just self-interest, then why the rhetoric about spreading freedom and democracy?

[Stuart Mackey]

No, it's about the US stop pretending that these countries remain our allies or that they should have a say in US policy. Both sides should pursue their global agenda without bothering to pretend any loinger that it's not enlightened self interest.

And it never occurd to you that this attitude is why you have so many problems on the planet in the first place?

It isn't so much an attitude as an unchangeable fact of human existance, and one that, if recognized and worked in to maximize the gain of one's own nation, will at least cause a reduction in the suffering of your compatriots.

You know, Marina, you spend so much time rationaliseing the good for one nation in a bad situation you have entirly missed the oppertunity for something better.
We had slavery on the planet for how many millennia? is this an immutable law of humanity? I think not. Just because it is, does not justify it continuing. To think otherwise is not just intellectual lazyness, in many instances on this planet it is downright inhumane and barbaric.

[Rubberanvil]

They seem to like to block up the roads every couple of years to get some new concession from the government.

I thought they did that every couple of months?

[Stuart Mackey]

They seem to like to block up the roads every couple of years to get some new concession from the government.

I thought they did that every couple of months?

Bah, French farmers are two words that mean lazy bastards. Mind you, US farmers are not exactly paragons of virtue either in this respect.

[Tsyroc]

Bah, French farmers are two words that mean lazy bastards. Mind you, US farmers are not exactly paragons of virtue either in this respect.

I haven't heard of US farmers "going on strike" in a long time. There is a pretty strong lobby from the agricultural industry though. We have a lot of
big corporations involved in farming too.

[Stuart Mackey]

Bah, French farmers are two words that mean lazy bastards. Mind you, US farmers are not exactly paragons of virtue either in this respect.

I haven't heard of US farmers "going on strike" in a long time. There is a pretty strong lobby from the agricultural industry though. We have a lot of
big corporations involved in farming too.

Sorry, I wasnt clear, I was meaning subsidies abnd rliance on tarrifs.
Yes, America's farming lobby is pain in the ass. Its annoying for Aussie and NZ when our famers, esp our sheep farmers, do the job better, cheaper and have no, in NZ's case, tarrifs or subsidies.

[XPViking]

It isn't so much an attitude as an unchangeable fact of human existance, and one that, if recognized and worked in to maximize the gain of one's own nation, will at least cause a reduction in the suffering of your compatriots.

Mao and you both made a mistake. Might does not automatically grant credibility, althought might can establish political power. But credibility is needed in order to retain political power. Often once your political credibility fails, so does your political power, and then so does your kingdom.

XPViking

[Tsyroc]

Bah, French farmers are two words that mean lazy bastards. Mind you, US farmers are not exactly paragons of virtue either in this respect.

I haven't heard of US farmers "going on strike" in a long time. There is a pretty strong lobby from the agricultural industry though. We have a lot of
big corporations involved in farming too.

Sorry, I wasnt clear, I was meaning subsidies abnd rliance on tarrifs.
Yes, America's farming lobby is pain in the ass. Its annoying for Aussie and NZ when our famers, esp our sheep farmers, do the job better, cheaper and have no, in NZ's case, tarrifs or subsidies.

It's not like there aren't times when US farmers are a pain like the French ones but they don't do it anywhere near as often.

I can understand your complaints about the terriffs.

I've only known one sheep farmer in the US and he emigrated from Australia.

I'd like to see a lot of the agricultural subsides go away, especially those that came about for stupid reasons but were never repealled (IIRC wool is subsidized because they used it for gloves etc...during the Korean War).

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

It's not like there aren't times when US farmers are a pain like the French ones but they don't do it anywhere near as often.

I can understand your complaints about the terriffs.

I've only known one sheep farmer in the US and he emigrated from Australia.

I'd like to see a lot of the agricultural subsides go away, especially those that came about for stupid reasons but were never repealled (IIRC wool is subsidized because they used it for gloves etc...during the Korean War).

That Aussie farmer will be making a fortune useing proper farming methods along with subsidies and tarrif protection..Unlike the rest of America's sheep farmers
Korean war? talk about buracratic inertia....

[Tsyroc]

That Aussie farmer will be making a fortune useing proper farming methods along with subsidies and tarrif protection..Unlike the rest of America's sheep farmers
Korean war? talk about buracratic inertia....

I'm not sure how much land or how many sheep he had. He did use and ATV to get around a lot of the time.

Seem to remember he had a pretty nice house and they had put in an above ground swiming pool. Not many people had pools of any kind in Iowa at that time. Don't really get to use them for that much of the year.

For the last couple years one of our big networks (NBC) has been doing a series called "The Fleecing of America". It has to do with a lot of pork barrel spending and boodoggles the government has wasted money on. There have been several times where stuff was subsidized for one reason but once it got started it was worse than pulling teeth to get it dropped or to keep it from being renewed.

[Joe]

Bah, French farmers are two words that mean lazy bastards. Mind you, US farmers are not exactly paragons of virtue either in this respect.

I haven't heard of US farmers "going on strike" in a long time. There is a pretty strong lobby from the agricultural industry though. We have a lot of
big corporations involved in farming too.

Sorry, I wasnt clear, I was meaning subsidies abnd rliance on tarrifs.
Yes, America's farming lobby is pain in the ass. Its annoying for Aussie and NZ when our famers, esp our sheep farmers, do the job better, cheaper and have no, in NZ's case, tarrifs or subsidies.

Believe me, those subsidies and tariffs hurt Americans a hell of a lot more than they hurt you. They direct investment and other resources away from truly profitable sectors of the economy to a sector that America just doesn't have much of a comparative advantage in anymore.

[Stuart Mackey]

I haven't heard of US farmers "going on strike" in a long time. There is a pretty strong lobby from the agricultural industry though. We have a lot of
big corporations involved in farming too.

Sorry, I wasnt clear, I was meaning subsidies abnd rliance on tarrifs.
Yes, America's farming lobby is pain in the ass. Its annoying for Aussie and NZ when our famers, esp our sheep farmers, do the job better, cheaper and have no, in NZ's case, tarrifs or subsidies.

Believe me, those subsidies and tariffs hurt Americans a hell of a lot more than they hurt you. They direct investment and other resources away from truly profitable sectors of the economy to a sector that America just doesn't have much of a comparative advantage in anymore.

You need to scrap that mentality fucking quick, excuse my french. This kind of mentality can cripple a nation. And with sheep and dairy you dont have a competitive advantage, NZ would blow your nation out of the water when it comes to Dairy and sheep {I dont mean to sound like I am gloating here, but we are damn good at it.}

[Darth Wong]

It isn't so much an attitude as an unchangeable fact of human existance, and one that, if recognized and worked in to maximize the gain of one's own nation, will at least cause a reduction in the suffering of your compatriots.

And in many cases, an increase in the suffering of others. I've always found it amusing how people can actually defend unfettered self-interest as a moral principle by simply sticking the window-dressing word "enlightened" in front of it.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

And in many cases, an increase in the suffering of others. I've always found it amusing how people can actually defend unfettered self-interest as a moral principle by simply sticking the window-dressing word "enlightened" in front of it.

States have a duty to look out for their own citizens; I'd maintain that such duty comes before looking out for the citizens of other States.

[Joe]

You need to scrap that mentality fucking quick, excuse my french. This kind of mentality can cripple a nation. And with sheep and dairy you dont have a competitive advantage, NZ would blow your nation out of the water when it comes to Dairy and sheep {I dont mean to sound like I am gloating here, but we are damn good at it.}

Protectionism causes wars. I'll keep my anti-protectionist mentality, thank you very much.

Watch the huge blocks of quotes~ Stormbringer

[Darth Wong]

And in many cases, an increase in the suffering of others. I've always found it amusing how people can actually defend unfettered self-interest as a moral principle by simply sticking the window-dressing word "enlightened" in front of it.

States have a duty to look out for their own citizens; I'd maintain that such duty comes before looking out for the citizens of other States.

Precisely. You don't believe states should behave in an ethical fashion.
"Looking out for your own at the expense of others" is just a nice way of saying "fuck 'em all".

[Stormbringer]

Precisely. You don't believe states should behave in an ethical fashion.
"Looking out for your own at the expense of others" is just a nice way of saying "fuck 'em all".

It's possible for a nation to look after it's own interests without being unethical you know.

[Darth Wong]

Precisely. You don't believe states should behave in an ethical fashion.
"Looking out for your own at the expense of others" is just a nice way of saying "fuck 'em all".

It's possible for a nation to look after it's own interests without being unethical you know.

Read Marina's post. She stated that she has no problem with a nation improving its own situation at the expense of causing suffering to others.

[Stormbringer]

It's possible for a nation to look after it's own interests without being unethical you know.

Read Marina's post. She stated that she has no problem with a nation improving its own situation at the expense of causing suffering to others.

That's Marina for you.

But that doesn't change the fact that a country can look out for it's own interests with out being unethical about it.

[Stuart Mackey]

You need to scrap that mentality fucking quick, excuse my french. This kind of mentality can cripple a nation. And with sheep and dairy you dont have a competitive advantage, NZ would blow your nation out of the water when it comes to Dairy and sheep {I dont mean to sound like I am gloating here, but we are damn good at it.}

Protectionism causes wars. I'll keep my anti-protectionist mentality, thank you very much.

I know, thats why I suggest you scrap it like we have...