Well, Bush just cited the book of Isiah..

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Falcon
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Post by Falcon »

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:If a teacher said something like, 'God bless you all' as the students left class, then no, I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Of course you wouldn't. I suppose you would also have no problem with the teacher saying "may glorious Satan watch over you all", right?
No, not really (I'd have a personal problem with it, but I wouldn't claim it was a Constitutional violation)
Not just unprofessional, a direct misuse of government resources. Monica was a paid government employee on government time (so was Clinton). It would be like me stealing office supplies (to put it mildly).
She was also a minor government asset to abuse, whereas a televised presidential speech is a major event.
[/quote]

Man you're twisted
So if he's out walking his dog and some reporters come by and he mentions how great relgion is you wouldn't have a problem with that? He still is on government time, surrounded by secret service, nuclear codes nearby, etc...
That would be fine, since they asked him a direct question and he is, after all, out walking his dog. Not at all like getting up to a podium and giving a prepared speech in which unsolicited religious input is made.[/quote]

Would you have a problem with Bush advocating or praising communism (which is blatently unconstitutional) in a speech?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Falcon wrote:No, not really (I'd have a personal problem with it, but I wouldn't claim it was a Constitutional violation)
I would like to see someone actually try this, to see if Christian rhetoric about "freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion" holds up when someone really puts it to the test.
She was also a minor government asset to abuse, whereas a televised presidential speech is a major event.
Man you're twisted
Why? It's true, isn't it? It's not as if he RAPED her, and her importance as a government asset is minimal. You're the one who mentioned her as a government asset in the first place, remember?
Would you have a problem with Bush advocating or praising communism (which is blatently unconstitutional) in a speech?
Depends on whether it has something to do with the intent of the speech. If, for example, he was attempting to implement some socialist policy, then I could see how a communism-related comment would be appropriate. It would be on-topic, after all, and perhaps even unavoidable. If, on the other hand, there was a totally unnecessary inclusion of communist rhetoric, then I would certainly have to wonder, and so would millions of Americans.
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Post by Steve »

Darth Wong wrote:
Steve wrote:A voice of reason. I am pleased.
Hey look! A lame "me too" post!
I already said my peace. I desired to give Stravo a little encouragement considering what his post would provoke.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Steve wrote:I desired to give Stravo a little encouragement considering what his post would provoke.
In other words...
Darth Wong wrote:A lame "me too" post!
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Post by Steve »

Illuminatus Primus wrote: So your fucking point was bullshit.
Point? I'd have to give a shit first!
I love those "you just took the wind out of my arguments so I'm going to denigrate your position as being beneath my dignity" horseshit.
What argument? That remark about pandering to the crowd? You know, you're right, I'll concede it. George Bush really is a deeply religious man who considers the Bible a great source of inspiration.

Oh my GOD! THE APOCALYPSE IS UPON US!!! RUN! RUN FOR YOU LIIIIIIVES!

Until such a time as George Bush begins using OT verses to justify outlawing non-Judeo-Christian religions or some such.... I don't give a shit.

And if he tried that, the Supreme Court would kick his ass.
Cut the condescending bullshit.
Then cut the stupidity. It was a fucking speech, an attempt to inspire. You are making this a bigger deal than it is.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

It was more W fundie BS that was probably offensive to non-Judeo-Christian soliders.

Billy Graham showed more interdenominational and respect at the American Cathedral service after 9/111 for Christ's sake.
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Post by Publius »

Strictly speaking, it is not really possible for the President to violate the First Amendment; the First Amendment specifically states that "Congress shall make no law", and applies strictly to the legislature (and, by extension, the governments of the several States, per the Fourteenth Amendment). Contrary to the Jeffersonian interpretation, there is no separation of church and state in the Constitution itself.

The Founding Fathers had different positions regarding religion; Alexander Hamilton proposed the establishment of the Christian Constitutional Society in 1802, and, along with other Federalists, was disturbed by the overt atheism of the French Revolution (which Thomas Jefferson openly supported). Thomas Paine's Common Sense cited extensively from the Bible in order to support his position (although, to be sure, that is not to suggest that he was any less a Jacobin).

Thomas Jefferson's musings on the intentions of the Constitution are only that -- his interpretation. He was minister to France during the Constitutional Convention, and not qualified to speak on that matter. General Hamilton, who was so qualified, saw no contradiction between the First Amendment and the establishment of the Christian Constitutional Society. It should be remembered that General Hamilton was the principal author of The Federalist, which the United States Supreme Court regards as a definitive guide to the intentions of the Founding Fathers.

Really, given the context of the time wherein it was written, the First Amendment does not imply a Jeffersonian "wall of separation"; the reference to "establishment of a religion" is a reference to the fact that the Congress has no power to make an official religion of the United States, as opposed to the Parliament's power to make the Church of England the official British religion.

Nothing more is implied by the prohibition of Congressional laws respecting the establishment of a religion. It does not at all suggest a Constitutional mandate that government and religion be separate, nor was it understood to be so; in fact, Massachussetts did not disestablish Congregationalism until 1834. The present Constitution of Virginia, adopted in 1971, specifically states (Art. I, sect. 16) that "it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other".

The question of involvement of one's religious beliefs in the execution of political functions -- that is, in the performance of one's duties as an elected official -- is best left to the individual conscience of the office holder and to the discretion of the electorate. Provided that an office holder does nothing un-Constitutional, illegal, unethical, or immoral, he or she is free to invoke Iuppiter, Mars, and all the Pantheon, or Baal, or Mithra, or Zoroaster.

Publius

P.S. -- If you feel the need to disagree vehemently, please keep in mind that not all Christians are Fundamentalists. Specifically, Catholicism is decidedly not Fundamentalist -- Fundamentalists routinely vituperate the Catholic Church.
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Post by Steve »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Steve wrote:I desired to give Stravo a little encouragement considering what his post would provoke.
In other words...
Darth Wong wrote:A lame "me too" post!
I had already said my peace. Had I an immediately-available online messaging service contact with Stravo via AIM or ICQ, I'd have given encouragement via that. As I did not, I decided to post it.

But who am I to stop you from your Great Crusade to protect the innocent citizens from the evils of Bible-quoting government officials? :twisted:
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
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Post by Falcon »

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:No, not really (I'd have a personal problem with it, but I wouldn't claim it was a Constitutional violation)
I would like to see someone actually try this, to see if Christian rhetoric about "freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion" holds up when someone really puts it to the test.
She was also a minor government asset to abuse, whereas a televised presidential speech is a major event.
Man you're twisted
Why? It's true, isn't it? It's not as if he RAPED her, and her importance as a government asset is minimal. You're the one who mentioned her as a government asset in the first place, remember?
Like I said, you're twisted. Its got to be 100x worse to do what Clinton did than to mention religion in a speech. At the very least its flat out illegal, not just questionable.
Would you have a problem with Bush advocating or praising communism (which is blatently unconstitutional) in a speech?
Depends on whether it has something to do with the intent of the speech. If, for example, he was attempting to implement some socialist policy, then I could see how a communism-related comment would be appropriate. It would be on-topic, after all, and perhaps even unavoidable. If, on the other hand, there was a totally unnecessary inclusion of communist rhetoric, then I would certainly have to wonder, and so would millions of Americans.[/quote]

There wouldn't be anything unconstitutional about it though. Bush praising communism in a speech or advocating communism isn't violating the Constitution. Trying to implement communistic legislation is a violation.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Publius wrote:<snip>

Nothing more is implied by the prohibition of Congressional laws respecting the establishment of a religion. It does not at all suggest a Constitutional mandate that government and religion be separate, nor was it understood to be so; in fact, Massachussetts did not disestablish Congregationalism until 1834.
The fact that there was tremendous resistance to secularism in early America is not a surprise. Nevertheless, while some interpreted it to permit abuse, the fact is that the constitution does obviously mandate that the government is not in the business of establishing religion. You can say this refers to SPECIFIC religions instead of whole FAMILIES of religions (ie- theistic ones as opposed to meditative ones), but that's hair-splitting.
The present Constitution of Virginia, adopted in 1971, specifically states (Art. I, sect. 16) that "it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other".
And the present constitution of Texas states that if you don't believe in a supreme being, you can't hold public office. So what?
The question of involvement of one's religious beliefs in the execution of political functions -- that is, in the performance of one's duties as an elected official -- is best left to the individual conscience of the office holder and to the discretion of the electorate. Provided that an office holder does nothing un-Constitutional, illegal, unethical, or immoral, he or she is free to invoke Iuppiter, Mars, and all the Pantheon, or Baal, or Mithra, or Zoroaster.
Bush has repeatedly trod on the Constitution in his efforts to funnel taxpayer funds toward religious organizations, even if those organizations are blatantly discriminatory in their hiring practices. Add in "illegal, unethical, and immoral" if you like; it's kind of a blanket problem. As I said earlier, this is but one more straw on the pile.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Falcon wrote:Like I said, you're twisted. Its got to be 100x worse to do what Clinton did than to mention religion in a speech. At the very least its flat out illegal, not just questionable.
How is it flat-out illegal? It's certainly unprofessional, and it could be regarded as professional misconduct. But "flat-out illegal?" Sorry, but adultery is not a crime. It is only ammunition in a divorce case.
There wouldn't be anything unconstitutional about it though. Bush praising communism in a speech or advocating communism isn't violating the Constitution.
I suppose that would depend on whether you regard communism as a religion.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Post by Falcon »

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:Like I said, you're twisted. Its got to be 100x worse to do what Clinton did than to mention religion in a speech. At the very least its flat out illegal, not just questionable.
How is it flat-out illegal? It's certainly unprofessional, and it could be regarded as professional misconduct. But "flat-out illegal?" Sorry, but adultery is not a crime. It is only ammunition in a divorce case.
Misuse of government resources is a crime, what he did wasn't adultery, it was theft. Purjury is a crime to, btw.

There wouldn't be anything unconstitutional about it though. Bush praising communism in a speech or advocating communism isn't violating the Constitution.
I suppose that would depend on whether you regard communism as a religion.[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't make that clear. My point is that simply advocating or referring (in a positive light) to something unconstitutional in a speech is not in and of itself unconstitutional. Bush could, for instance, talk about the benifits of suspending the guards against illegal searches and seizures (not a stretch is it?). Simply saying it in a speech isn't illegal. Trying to actually do it is.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Falcon wrote:Misuse of government resources is a crime, what he did wasn't adultery, it was theft. Purjury is a crime to, btw.
Misuse of government resources is an offense punishable by firing, not criminal charges. Not unless you graduate to outright embezzlement, and the dollar value of Monica's blowjob is realistically under $100.

As for perjury, that's true. But you're changing the subject; his conduct during the witch hunt is unrelated to the original subject of misusing government positions for personal reasons.
I suppose that would depend on whether you regard communism as a religion.
Sorry, I didn't make that clear. My point is that simply advocating or referring (in a positive light) to something unconstitutional in a speech is not in and of itself unconstitutional.
Except that this is not what I'm arguing. The Constitution specifically forbids establishment of religion. One might try to nitpick and say that it forbids LAWS which produce establishment of religion rather than government employee activities which do the same, but in application, we have seen that it does in fact prohibit government activities which do the same.

Moreover, from the larger perspective of world-recognized human rights principles, it is unacceptable regardless of what nitpickery you can achieve with the wording of the American Constitution.
Bush could, for instance, talk about the benifits of suspending the guards against illegal searches and seizures (not a stretch is it?). Simply saying it in a speech isn't illegal. Trying to actually do it is.
Too bad that has nothing to do with my point. Talking about something which is unconstitutional in a speech is perfectly acceptable. Ignoring the principle of freedom of religion is not.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by Falcon »

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:Misuse of government resources is a crime, what he did wasn't adultery, it was theft. Purjury is a crime to, btw.
Misuse of government resources is an offense punishable by firing, not criminal charges. Not unless you graduate to outright embezzlement, and the dollar value of Monica's blowjob is realistically under $100.

As for perjury, that's true. But you're changing the subject; his conduct during the witch hunt is unrelated to the original subject of misusing government positions for personal reasons.
There was a senator forced out of office for using his secretary as a babysitter.

btw, I hope you arn't trying to excuse purjury because it was a 'witch hunt'
I suppose that would depend on whether you regard communism as a religion.
Sorry, I didn't make that clear. My point is that simply advocating or referring (in a positive light) to something unconstitutional in a speech is not in and of itself unconstitutional.
Except that this is not what I'm arguing. The Constitution specifically forbids establishment of religion. One might try to nitpick and say that it forbids LAWS which produce establishment of religion rather than government employee activities which do the same, but in application, we have seen that it does in fact prohibit government activities which do the same.
I see what you're saying, but I don't think its valid in this situation. Bush speaking favorably about religion is no different than him speaking favorably about suspending the 5th Amendment. btw, would you be equally opposed to Bush speaking out against religion in a speech like that?
Moreover, from the larger perspective of world-recognized human rights principles, it is unacceptable regardless of what nitpickery you can achieve with the wording of the American Constitution.
I don't care about that. The Constitution is all that matters to me, I don't trust any 'world human rights'

Bush could, for instance, talk about the benifits of suspending the guards against illegal searches and seizures (not a stretch is it?). Simply saying it in a speech isn't illegal. Trying to actually do it is.
Too bad that has nothing to do with my point. Talking about something which is unconstitutional in a speech is perfectly acceptable. Ignoring the principle of freedom of religion is not.[/quote]

Well basically it comes down to this, we disagree about what constitutes freedom of religion and what is constitutional.
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Post by Publius »

Darth Wong wrote:
Publius wrote:<snip>

Nothing more is implied by the prohibition of Congressional laws respecting the establishment of a religion. It does not at all suggest a Constitutional mandate that government and religion be separate, nor was it understood to be so; in fact, Massachussetts did not disestablish Congregationalism until 1834.
The fact that there was tremendous resistance to secularism in early America is not a surprise. Nevertheless, while some interpreted it to permit abuse, the fact is that the constitution does obviously mandate that the government is not in the business of establishing religion. You can say this refers to SPECIFIC religions instead of whole FAMILIES of religions (ie- theistic ones as opposed to meditative ones), but that's hair-splitting.
Certainly, it is agreed that the Federal Government does not have the power to establish religions, but the important detail is that "establishment of religion" was understood to mean the creation of a state religion, à la King Henry VIII's Act of Supremacy of 1534. The Congress is forbidden to "establish" a religion in the sense that it cannot make an official church of the United States.

In the same sense, were the Congress to establish a family of religions -- such as, say, Christianity, or Islam (both have multiple different denominations) -- it would constitute a violation of the First Amendment. However, the mere act of involving religion in state affairs, while not necessarily a good idea, is not in and of itself un-Constitutional.

Article VI prohibits the use of a religious test as qualification for office of trust under the United States. The First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a religion by the Congress, and the imposition by the Congress of laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the several States from "abridging the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States", which includes the free exercise of religion (it should be added that to claim that "free exercise of religion" does not include atheism is fatuous and intellectually dishonest).

The Jeffersonian interpretation of that is the "wall of separation between church and state". However, this concept is not in the Constitution itself. The question of involvement of religion in politics (with the exception of the aforementioned conditions) is left to the prudential judgement of the elected official and of the electorate. In this case, it was well known that Governor Bush was a devout Christian prior to his election as President (he openly stated when seeking the Party nomination, for example, that he considered Jesus the philosopher with the most influence on his life).
The present Constitution of Virginia, adopted in 1971, specifically states (Art. I, sect. 16) that "it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other".
And the present constitution of Texas states that if you don't believe in a supreme being, you can't hold public office. So what?
The point is that, rightly or wrongly, the Constitution does not erect a Jeffersonian wall of separation. It does not go beyond the prohibition of the establishment of a religion by the Congress, of the imposition of laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion by the Congress or the several States, and of the use of a religious test to hold office of trust under the United States.

It is possible, Constitutionally, to involve religion in affairs of state. It should be noted, however, that Constitutionality does not confer propriety. Whether or not one can is one question; whether or not one should is another.
The question of involvement of one's religious beliefs in the execution of political functions -- that is, in the performance of one's duties as an elected official -- is best left to the individual conscience of the office holder and to the discretion of the electorate. Provided that an office holder does nothing un-Constitutional, illegal, unethical, or immoral, he or she is free to invoke Iuppiter, Mars, and all the Pantheon, or Baal, or Mithra, or Zoroaster.
Bush has repeatedly trod on the Constitution in his efforts to funnel taxpayer funds toward religious organizations, even if those organizations are blatantly discriminatory in their hiring practices. Add in "illegal, unethical, and immoral" if you like; it's kind of a blanket problem. As I said earlier, this is but one more straw on the pile.
The pharisaical argument would be that subsidy is not establishment. To be sure, however, President Bush's faith-based initiative comes dangerously close to violating the spirit of the law, if not the letter of the law (disregarding entirely the question of whether or not the Congress would have the Constitutional authority to make such an appropriation, wholly regardless of the First Amendment-related concerns). While not strictly un-Constitutional, it would be inappropriate.

However, President Bush's remarks in this particular case are not overly controversial. He quoted rhetoric from the Book of Isaiah; he did not quote Theology, or philosophy. Quoting from Thomas Hobbes's discourse on the meaning of words in the first part of Leviathan does not automatically mean that one believes that the Catholic Church is the Kingdom of Darkness and that the Pope is the Antichrist (Hobbes makes exactly that charge in the final part of Leviathan).
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Post by Darth Wong »

Publius wrote:In the same sense, were the Congress to establish a family of religions -- such as, say, Christianity, or Islam (both have multiple different denominations) -- it would constitute a violation of the First Amendment. However, the mere act of involving religion in state affairs, while not necessarily a good idea, is not in and of itself un-Constitutional.
It intrinsically works to erode religious freedom, since government promotion of a religion or family of religions is exclusionary by nature, hence in violation of religious equality (equality under the state being a prerequisite for truly free expression).
The Jeffersonian interpretation of that is the "wall of separation between church and state". However, this concept is not in the Constitution itself.
It is the only interpretation which satisfies the requirements. Others trod on principles such as religious equality/freedom.
The pharisaical argument would be that subsidy is not establishment. To be sure, however, President Bush's faith-based initiative comes dangerously close to violating the spirit of the law, if not the letter of the law (disregarding entirely the question of whether or not the Congress would have the Constitutional authority to make such an appropriation, wholly regardless of the First Amendment-related concerns). While not strictly un-Constitutional, it would be inappropriate.
I don't see how you can interpret it as "dangerously close" rather than "so far past that it's no longer visible in the rear view mirror".
However, President Bush's remarks in this particular case are not overly controversial. He quoted rhetoric from the Book of Isaiah; he did not quote Theology, or philosophy.
The Book of Isaiah is part of the Old Testament: a document which explicitly calls for every conceivable form of hate against all other religions. The source of an explicitly referenced citation is not insignificant. If he quoted something from Mein Kampf, even if the sentence itself were not too offensive, people would take offense nonetheless.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Post by Darth Wong »

Falcon wrote:There was a senator forced out of office for using his secretary as a babysitter.
Precisely as I said: forced out of office, not thrown in jail. It is not a criminal offense.
btw, I hope you arn't trying to excuse purjury because it was a 'witch hunt'
It is a FACT that it was a witch hunt. His poor judgement in dealing with it is his own problem, but either way, it's off-topic.
I see what you're saying, but I don't think its valid in this situation. Bush speaking favorably about religion is no different than him speaking favorably about suspending the 5th Amendment. btw, would you be equally opposed to Bush speaking out against religion in a speech like that?
There is no specific provision in the Constitution guaranteeing equality of competing political ideas. There IS a specific provision guaranteeing freedom to pursue any and all religious beliefs equally, which intrinsically requires that government not promote any religion.
I don't care about that. The Constitution is all that matters to me, I don't trust any 'world human rights'
Yes, Christian fundamentalists almost invariably disregard human rights. It's hardly unexpected.
Well basically it comes down to this, we disagree about what constitutes freedom of religion and what is constitutional.
Obviously. You think "freedom of religion" means government officials can do whatever they want, while I think "freedom of religion" means that the government is obligated to ensure that private citizens can freely choose religions on a wholly equal basis.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Post by Steve »

Darth Wong wrote: Obviously. You think "freedom of religion" means government officials can do whatever they want, while I think "freedom of religion" means that the government is obligated to ensure that private citizens can freely choose religions on a wholly equal basis.
And how does subsidizing charities and quoting the Bible in public speeches undermine the right to freely choose religion?
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Post by Iceberg »

Darth Wong wrote:Of course you wouldn't. I suppose you would also have no problem with the teacher saying "may glorious Satan watch over you all", right?
Mike, fuck you. You're just arguing from an absurdity for the shock value.

I wouldn't object to a teacher giving a benediction appropriate to their religion. It makes sense to me.

The idea of a satanist teacher is already pretty ludicrous, since satanists (actual satanists, not rebellious middle-class teenagers painting an anarchy symbol or an inverted pentagram on the back of their leather jackets and saying "Hail Satan" to get a rise out of their parents) are a tiny minority as it is, and satanism as a religion preaches personal enrichment as the first and most important goal of life (small wonder that the majority of satanists are dead-end losers - it's the cargo-cult phenomenon), and the low salary/high responsibility combination of primary/secondary school teaching would be anathema to a satanist.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Iceberg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Of course you wouldn't. I suppose you would also have no problem with the teacher saying "may glorious Satan watch over you all", right?
Mike, fuck you. You're just arguing from an absurdity for the shock value.
And interesting enough, you have no logical answer, so you seek to simply evade the question by dismissing it as an absurdity. If you can't think of a good response, and this is the best you can do, then fuck YOU, asshole.
I wouldn't object to a teacher giving a benediction appropriate to their religion. It makes sense to me.
Good. Then you have no problem with Satanism.
The idea of a satanist teacher is already pretty ludicrous, since satanists (actual satanists, not rebellious middle-class teenagers painting an anarchy symbol or an inverted pentagram on the back of their leather jackets and saying "Hail Satan" to get a rise out of their parents) are a tiny minority as it is, and satanism as a religion preaches personal enrichment as the first and most important goal of life (small wonder that the majority of satanists are dead-end losers - it's the cargo-cult phenomenon), and the low salary/high responsibility combination of primary/secondary school teaching would be anathema to a satanist.
Satan in the Bible does not preach personal enrichment. You are talking about the organized movement that had very little to do with Satan in the Bible. Satan in the Bible stood for freedom of thought and liberty from oppression. And you are still trying to evade the point, asshole.
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Post by Iceberg »

Darth Wong wrote:
Iceberg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Of course you wouldn't. I suppose you would also have no problem with the teacher saying "may glorious Satan watch over you all", right?
Mike, fuck you. You're just arguing from an absurdity for the shock value.
And interesting enough, you have no logical answer, so you seek to simply evade the question by dismissing it as an absurdity. If you can't think of a good response, and this is the best you can do, then fuck YOU, asshole.
Give me a good reason why I have to jump to such an absurdity. Gothic satanists (the ones who say "Hail Satan") are for the vast majority part either physically or mentally rebellious teenagers who have no concept of adult responsibility, let alone enough to be put into a position to instill knowledge and responsibility into children. There is no actual religion that worships Satan, organized or disorganized. There might be a few scattered around who have that level of maturity, but I really doubt it. Give me a situation that's likely to actually show up in the real world.

Jumping from "I wouldn't want a teacher to say 'hail Satan' in front of my kids" to "I only support freedom of religion when it's convenient to me" is a fuck of a leap.

(BTW, I did, in fact, consider what kind of a land mine I was looking at before I went and stomped on it)
I wouldn't object to a teacher giving a benediction appropriate to their religion. It makes sense to me.
Good. Then you have no problem with Satanism.
Show me first a teacher who's an actual Satanist, Mike, then we'll talk. I'm not going to waste my time justifying myself in the face of an eventuality that probably doesn't even exist.
The idea of a satanist teacher is already pretty ludicrous, since satanists (actual satanists, not rebellious middle-class teenagers painting an anarchy symbol or an inverted pentagram on the back of their leather jackets and saying "Hail Satan" to get a rise out of their parents) are a tiny minority as it is, and satanism as a religion preaches personal enrichment as the first and most important goal of life (small wonder that the majority of satanists are dead-end losers - it's the cargo-cult phenomenon), and the low salary/high responsibility combination of primary/secondary school teaching would be anathema to a satanist.
Satan in the Bible does not preach personal enrichment. You are talking about the organized movement that had very little to do with Satan in the Bible. Satan in the Bible stood for freedom of thought and liberty from oppression. And you are still trying to evade the point, asshole.
No, you're evading the point by trying to make me fight something that doesn't even exist.

Gothic satanism ("classical" Satanism as you're trying to define it) is a joke, Mike. If there's a thousand Gothic satanists in the US over the age of 19, I'd be really surprised. YOU might be talking about Satan in the Bible (as you see and interpret him, at any rate), I'M talking about Satanism as a 20th/21st century religious movement, because THAT'S the kind of Satanism that any one of us is the most likely to come into practical contact with.

And, Mike, for all the times that Satan promises the goods, does he ever ONCE deliver? I can promise you fifty million dollars in gold right now, but I have absolutely no ability to deliver on that promise. Remember that when Satan promises Jesus great and wonderful things, he always puts on his promises a condition: worship (the same condition as his rival, for promises that admittedly aren't fulfilled all that much more often than Satan's). That ain't liberty. That's trading one master for another. Empty promises of freedom "if you'll do as I say" qualify as rabble-rousing, not liberation. I'm not going to go around saying that God (at least WRT the Old Testament - the Big Guy seemed a bit less aggressive in NT times: still cranky, but FAR less likely to smite whole populations because He was having an off day) was a nifty-keen guy, so please don't insult my intelligence.

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Post by The Albino Raven »

As long as he doesn't make any political decisions based on the Bible, I couldn't care less. All the bible stuff in his speeches is mostly trying to appeal to his major support base anyway, which is why he goes out of the way to include that stuff in his speeches.
George W. Bush said, as in his state of the union address on Jan. 29th 2003,
The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity
This quote shows the obvious religious motivation behind Bush's argument for "liberty and democracy" for the Iraqi people. This equation of America's liberty=God's gift worries me deeply.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Fremen_Muhadib wrote:This quote shows the obvious religious motivation behind Bush's argument for "liberty and democracy" for the Iraqi people. This equation of America's liberty=God's gift worries me deeply.
Especially given his other religious gaffes concerning the Middle East and the Muslim world. I wish Bush would just shut the fuck up and let Colin Powell speek for us.
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Post by Death from the Sea »

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:Like I said, you're twisted. Its got to be 100x worse to do what Clinton did than to mention religion in a speech. At the very least its flat out illegal, not just questionable.
How is it flat-out illegal? It's certainly unprofessional, and it could be regarded as professional misconduct. But "flat-out illegal?" Sorry, but adultery is not a crime. It is only ammunition in a divorce case.
Actually it is illegal and I will explain how. Technically the President of the United States is the highest ranking individual in the U.S. Military, (Commander-in-Chief) that being said he is subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice(U.C.M.J.) and according to the U.C.M.J.article 134 the General Article or "catch all" prohibits adultery. I know because a guy in my old unit was charged with it a got brig time before being dishonorably discharged. There is a long list of stuff Clinton should have been charged with but was not.
U.C.M.J. wrote: ART. 107. FALSE STATEMENTS

Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent to deceive, signs any false record, return, regulation, order, or other official document, knowing it to be false, or makes any other false official statement knowing it to be false, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

ART. 131. PERJURY

Any person subject to this chapter who in a judicial proceeding or in a course of justice willfully and corruptly--

(1) upon a lawful oath or in a form allowed by law to be substituted for an oath, gives any false testimony material to the issue or matter of inquiry; or

(2) in any declaration, certificate, verification, or statement under penalty or perjury as permitted under section 1746 of title 28, United States Code, subscribes any false statement material to the issue or matter of inquiry; is guilty of perjury and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

ART. 133. CONDUCT UNBECOMING AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN

Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE

Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, ll conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.
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Post by Iceberg »

None of the articles apply, though, because the President - although the Commander in Chief of the military - is NOT a member of the military (indeed, it's illegal for a currently serving member of the military to serve as President of the United States - Eisenhower had to retire from the Army immediately before he took office, and was reinstated at five-star rank by act of Congress immediately after he left office) and not bound by the UCMJ. The President is bound by and must be charged under US Code, not UCMJ (IIRC, excepting in time of war).
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