Government lawyers say burglars 'need protection'

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-05-20 05:06pm

Then you are violent and mentally unstable.

No. Merely honest enough to admit the possibility that I'd most probably take action far out of the ordinary.

In fact, it surprises me to see so many on this forum deal with the situation in so matter-of-fact a manner. You all seem to believe you're paragons of good, with the ingrained ability to dispense mercy at will even during a life-threatening situation.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-05-20 05:06pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Axis Kast wrote: That said, the law really doesn’t apply during the ten minutes it takes to confront and kill you in the hallway of my house at 3:00 AM. If I find you, I’m going to pump you so full of lead or bash your skull in with my bat so many times that they’ll need to mop you off the floor. It’s not that I don’t care what happens to me once it’s all over – just that, in the moment, I’ll have lost all self-control.
then you are violent and mentally unstable.

Much as it pains me to support Axis Kast, I think he has a case.
Consider: It's 3:00 AM. You've just woke up due to some sound down in the living room (you think). You're half asleep. Thanks to it being 3:00AM, you being half asleep, and your significant other being right next to you and potentially in danger, you're pretty paranoid. The adrenalin kicks in. You pick up your gun and head down. You go down and find the burglar in the hallway. He hears you and turns around.

OMIGODOMIGODHESGOINGTOKILLME BLAM BLAM BLAM

The burglar's dead.

I don't see this as Axis admitting to being violent/mentally unstable as much as him admitting he might likely panic in such a situation, and while I can't speak for the rest of you, that might very well apply to me, too(well, if I had a gun. And a hallway.And a multi-level home)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-20 05:32pm

In your scenario, the burglar turns toward you. In my scenario, he turns to run. Those are two different scenarios; no one is arguing that a burglar who comes toward you should not be regarded as a threat. But a number of people here are saying that even if he runs away, it's OK to shoot him in the back, and THAT is what I'm criticizing. Stop distorting positions.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-05-20 05:40pm

Much as it pains me to support Axis Kast, I think he has a case.
Consider: It's 3:00 AM. You've just woke up due to some sound down in the living room (you think). You're half asleep. Thanks to it being 3:00AM, you being half asleep, and your significant other being right next to you and potentially in danger, you're pretty paranoid. The adrenalin kicks in. You pick up your gun and head down. You go down and find the burglar in the hallway. He hears you and turns around.

OMIGODOMIGODHESGOINGTOKILLME BLAM BLAM BLAM

The burglar's dead.

I don't see this as Axis admitting to being violent/mentally unstable as much as him admitting he might likely panic in such a situation, and while I can't speak for the rest of you, that might very well apply to me, too(well, if I had a gun. And a hallway.And a multi-level home).

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm trying to make clear. If nothing's for certain in this world - and nothing is -, I'm not going to discount the possibility of my becoming abnormally hyperreactive and thus deadly, irrationally violent.

As for Wong? Either way - facing me or running away -, I'm shooting the burglar. It's not about what's moral or "right." It's about what I feel in the moment and responding to that emotion. In this case, I probably wouldn't stop to help it. Never mind that there's an old exchange that satirizes this sort of thing:

"My God. You shot him. You shot him in the back!"

"His back was to me."

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-05-21 08:12am

Axis Kast wrote:[qoute]
As for Wong? Either way - facing me or running away -, I'm shooting the burglar. It's not about what's moral or "right." It's about what I feel in the moment and responding to that emotion. In this case, I probably wouldn't stop to help it. Never mind that there's an old exchange that satirizes this sort of thing:

"My God. You shot him. You shot him in the back!"

"His back was to me."

No one is disagreeing with that.

That's what a criminal investigation would be for.

I mean, okay, the guy is in your house, and you blasted him. It was 3 in the morning, you where protecting you wife, and it was dark so you couldn't tell.
You did shot him in the back, but under the circumstances, it was understandable. Self-Defense and defense of family.

However, had be been running away from you, say towards an open door, then there is a case for you stepping over the bounds.

My suggestion to everyone
If it's possible, get lighting you can activate from near your bedroom that will light up or turn off the lights in the entire house/level. That way, if there is a noise, you go to your bedroom door, pull on your bathrobe, 'cock' your shotgun, and flip a switch which turns on all the lights in your house and momentarily blinds an intruder.
(Make sure the lights don't blaze on in your kids bedrooms or the bathroom)
The added bonus with such a light switch is, when you go to bed at night, you don't have to worry about turning all the lights off

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-05-21 03:39pm

Oh, so now there's light?

Good. My fire will be more accurate. Hopefully I'll carry the back of his skull off as he flies out my door into the night.

The point is that there is no set of events that could possibly result in my being sane and rational when faced with a breakin at 3:00 AM.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-05-21 04:27pm

Axis Kast wrote:Oh, so now there's light?

Good. My fire will be more accurate. Hopefully I'll carry the back of his skull off as he flies out my door into the night.

The point is that there is no set of events that could possibly result in my being sane and rational when faced with a breakin at 3:00 AM.

Now THIS is Axis being violent and mentally unstable.
I'll grant that even without the added tension of darkness and actually being able to SEE what the burglar does one MIGHT still be keyed up enough to freak out and shoot, but claiming it's IMPOSSIBLE for you not to?

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-05-21 05:46pm

Now THIS is Axis being violent and mentally unstable.

Bullshit. It’s me admitting that I’m a human being with fears and passions capable of overwhelming both logic and reason at 3:00 in the morning and under siege by a potentially armed and violent intruder.

I'll grant that even without the added tension of darkness and actually being able to SEE what the burglar does one MIGHT still be keyed up enough to freak out and shoot, but claiming it's IMPOSSIBLE for you not to?

As much as it pains me to say this, haven’t you seen movies?

I don’t know how to operate a firearm properly much less “hold down” a prisoner. Unless said criminal is already bound and incapacitated, he’s going to get it.

J · Post by J » 2003-05-21 07:31pm

Axis Kast wrote:As much as it pains me to say this, haven’t you seen movies?

I don’t know how to operate a firearm properly much less “hold down” a prisoner. Unless said criminal is already bound and incapacitated, he’s going to get it.

Then now would be a very good time to start learning. If you have not prepared, if you have not trained, if you haven't bothered to learn anything about protecting yourself, it's no surprise that you can only panic and act rashly when confronted with a burglar. How can you use your complete lack of preparedness as an excuse to wantonly kill burglars? I cannot understand this thinking.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-05-21 07:48pm

Then now would be a very good time to start learning. If you have not prepared, if you have not trained, if you haven't bothered to learn anything about protecting yourself, it's no surprise that you can only panic and act rashly when confronted with a burglar. How can you use your complete lack of preparedness as an excuse to wantonly kill burglars? I cannot understand this thinking.

It's no surprise that anybody could panic and act irrational when confronted with a burglar in the middle of the night.

I'm not using my unpreparedness as an excuse so much as an explanation of why in the heat of the moment I'd probably pull the trigger. Truth be told, it surprises me that you think highly enough of your own self-control to claim that you'd take the logical, reasonable route yourself.

J · Post by J » 2003-05-21 11:30pm

Axis Kast wrote:It's no surprise that anybody could panic and act irrational when confronted with a burglar in the middle of the night.

I'm not using my unpreparedness as an excuse so much as an explanation of why in the heat of the moment I'd probably pull the trigger. Truth be told, it surprises me that you think highly enough of your own self-control to claim that you'd take the logical, reasonable route yourself.

There's a difference between shooting someone because you have no choice, when it's the only thing you can reasonably do to preserve your life and shooting at anything that moves in a blind panic. To know that you will invariably panic and act rashly and yet do nothing about it seems rather foolish to me. It's true that no amount of training or preparation will ever be able to overcome the shock of a real break-in, but it will allow you to deal with the situation in a better way.

I have not spent my entire life living in a nice safe suburb in Canada, I've lived in some pretty ugly places and spent years in the middle-east and a couple 3rd world countries. I know what it's like to have gunshots fired through my home windows in the dead of night, because it's happened to me. I have scars on my shoulder caused by shrapnel from a carbomb. I know that bad things will happen, and I plan and prepare for that. Will I panic when dealing with a break-in at 3am? Maybe, but I'll never know until it happens, and hopefully I'll know what to do when that robber breaks in because I've thought about it, planned, and prepared. I've taken steps to make my life safer, it would be wise if we all did the same.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-05-22 03:25am

jmac:Yikes!!!

Superhero posturing aside, if none of this ever happens to me I'll be perfectly content.

Axis:
1. I'm not denying that a person MAY panic in such a situation, but your insistence that you WILL,NO MATTER WHAT bothers me.

2.Nobody is asking you to hold down the burglar or shoot for his weapon or any bullshit like that. But you basically stated that you WILL shoot him in the back when he is obviously fleeing.

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2003-05-22 09:26am

Axis Kast wrote: It's no surprise that anybody could panic and act irrational when confronted with a burglar in the middle of the night.

I'm not using my unpreparedness as an excuse so much as an explanation of why in the heat of the moment I'd probably pull the trigger. Truth be told, it surprises me that you think highly enough of your own self-control to claim that you'd take the logical, reasonable route yourself.

Propper training can help you in this situation. Otherwiese you could end up killing
your wife or one of children because you thought they were burglars. I have been
in a similar situation and stayed cool(the colonel came looking for his guards in the dark forest part of our military installation).