Spain's Decision: Al-Qeada victory?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-24 12:47pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Howedar wrote:You are?
*Smack* Yeah, they have been for many centuries at least. I don't know if Portugal was ever a part of Spain, but they were a major trading/naval power as of the 1400s and quite independent of Spain by then at the very least. Although I don't know much about Portugal before that, I think its safe to assume that they were independent for a while before becoming one of the largest colonial powers in the world.

Portugal was formed around 1140 (but the Pope didn't recognise it until the King started paying tribute in 1179).

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-03-24 12:48pm

Ah, thanks.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-03-24 01:18pm

And yet the ariticle I quoted suggests that that is an oversimplification propergated by media looking for a flashy title, and not the primary reason for the PP's election defeat ... hmmm

Your article conveniently leaves out all of those people who admitted in direct interviews that their most significant grievance with the PP was terrorism. And yet it foreshadows it while making an argument that is not fully fleshed out. It states that many more "dormant voters" came out to "do their democratic duty" in the wake of the terrorist attacks. But then it ends there. And yet its obvious: without being motivated by the terrorist attacks to vote against the PP, those people wouldn't have been there at all.

Not to mention that the Spanish still practiced appeasement in al-Qaeda's eyes - which is all that matters for the international community, sad as that may be.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-24 01:32pm

Axis Kast wrote:
And yet the ariticle I quoted suggests that that is an oversimplification propergated by media looking for a flashy title, and not the primary reason for the PP's election defeat ... hmmm
Your article conveniently leaves out all of those people who admitted in direct interviews that their most significant grievance with the PP was terrorism.

For the second time, present your evidence that these people constituted a significant portion of the Spanish population.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-03-24 02:23pm

For the second time, present your evidence that these people constituted a significant portion of the Spanish population.

Read a paper from the days just after the bombings. They all include many, many quotations from people who held the PP responsible for the terrorism.

Not that it really matters. Whether or not you think me correct, the results still stand: al-Qaeda considers its strategy to have been vindicated.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-24 06:50pm

Axis Kast wrote:
For the second time, present your evidence that these people constituted a significant portion of the Spanish population.
Read a paper from the days just after the bombings. They all include many, many quotations from people who held the PP responsible for the terrorism.

Ah, I see. You base your argument entirely upon media sound-bites

Not that it really matters. Whether or not you think me correct, the results still stand: al-Qaeda considers its strategy to have been vindicated.

You don't even know if this was Al-Quaeda's "strategy" at all.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-03-24 07:24pm

Ah, I see. You base your argument entirely upon media sound-bites.

My argument comes from having watched CNN and read the New York Times and Newsday during and after the bombings. They featured considerable numbers of people who said: "We voted because the PP exposed us to terrorism by taking us into an unpopular war."

You don't even know if this was Al-Quaeda's "strategy" at all.

Then what, praytell, is al-Qaeda's strategy if not, "Hit them until they go home"?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-25 01:17am

Now, Mike, I agree that a lot of people doubtless changed their votes because of the government's response to the bombings, but after interviewing over 250 Spanish voters, I must come to the conclusion that a significant fraction of the ones that changed their vote did so as an appeasement effort towards Al Qaeda. Now, the sampling was admittedly biased. Almost everyone I interviewed was from Madrid, and a significant fraction of them were from the immediate neighborhoods around the affected train station. However, I would guesstimate that of the 75 or so that told me they changed their votes, more than 50 (2/3's) changed their vote because of that reasoning.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-25 01:31am

Master of Ossus wrote:Now, Mike, I agree that a lot of people doubtless changed their votes because of the government's response to the bombings, but after interviewing over 250 Spanish voters, I must come to the conclusion that a significant fraction of the ones that changed their vote did so as an appeasement effort towards Al Qaeda.

They actually told you they were voting in order to appease Al-Quaeda rather than voting because they were sick of the government's bullshit?

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-03-25 02:34am

I doubt they used the words "appease al-Qaeda."

It was probably something along the lines of, "They put us someplace we didn't want to be, and exposed us to the ire of people with whom we didn't want to have to deal." Spain will continue to fight terrorism, but like much of the rest of Western Europe, they are content to do so in a passive sense (responsive rather than preemptive).

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-03-25 02:57am

Axis Kast wrote:I doubt they used the words "appease al-Qaeda."

It was probably something along the lines of, "They put us someplace we didn't want to be, and exposed us to the ire of people with whom we didn't want to have to deal." Spain will continue to fight terrorism, but like much of the rest of Western Europe, they are content to do so in a passive sense (responsive rather than preemptive).

Oh for fucks sake Axis, should you ever be able to get out from behind you wall of Ignorance, you should donate it to the government so that they can build some public housing with it.

Did you even fucking read the article? The PP became a marginal party after the bombings in the Basque country. Are you this fucking dense? Don't you realise that the former governments intransigent blaming of ETA when all security services information was pointing to anything but, led to them loosing a hell of a lot of votes in a region they were practically trying to shift blame upon?

And in the Catalan region, the votes shifted to the PSDE, while the major gains that the PP gained between 2000 and today, vanished with in the space of 3 days due to their stubborn refuesal to admit who was responsible for the bombings.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-03-25 11:52am

Oh for fucks sake Axis, should you ever be able to get out from behind you wall of Ignorance, you should donate it to the government so that they can build some public housing with it.

Did you even fucking read the article? The PP became a marginal party after the bombings in the Basque country. Are you this fucking dense? Don't you realise that the former governments intransigent blaming of ETA when all security services information was pointing to anything but, led to them loosing a hell of a lot of votes in a region they were practically trying to shift blame upon?

And in the Catalan region, the votes shifted to the PSDE, while the major gains that the PP gained between 2000 and today, vanished with in the space of 3 days due to their stubborn refuesal to admit who was responsible for the bombings.

Yes, but that speaks only to some voters. Others - indeed, many - have made it quite clear that the terrorism changed their votes in the first place, rather than the cover-up after.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-25 12:07pm

How many?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-25 12:10pm

BoredShirtless wrote:How many?

He is wildy guessing based on no evidence, so how should he know?

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-03-25 12:47pm

What, all of a sudden the New York Times is a disreputable source?

Please. It isn't I that am grasping at straws here, as you try to discredit the bastions of media.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-25 12:49pm

Please stop dancing around my question. How many?

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-03-25 12:53pm

Enough that it was a topic for virtually daily stories across the American media in the week after March 11th.

Nobody can give you an exact number because nobody bothered to follow up every single voter in Spain. But it's clear that the desire to get Spain out of Iraq (and thereby to end the terrorism being inflicted upon the country) was a major motive behind those who came out and joined an electorate they normally ignore.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-03-25 12:56pm

You know, if Axis could only stop himself with 'Get out of the war in Iraq', he'd be right. It's a fact undisputed that ninety percent of the country wanted out. But he can't help himself, he has to paint this as 'running away from terrorism' as well.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-25 01:07pm

Axis Kast wrote:Enough that it was a topic for virtually daily stories across the American media in the week after March 11th.

Look Fred Astaire, stop fucking dancing and answer the bloody question. How many?

Nobody can give you an exact number because nobody bothered to follow up every single voter in Spain.

Don't be a dick, I'm obviously asking for a ball park figure.

But it's clear that the desire to get Spain out of Iraq (and thereby to end the terrorism being inflicted upon the country) was a major motive behind those who came out and joined an electorate they normally ignore.

It isn't obvious for a lot of us here. Can you build a case?

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-25 01:09pm

BoredShirtless wrote:
But it's clear that the desire to get Spain out of Iraq (and thereby to end the terrorism being inflicted upon the country) was a major motive behind those who came out and joined an electorate they normally ignore.
It isn't obvious for a lot of us here. Can you build a case?

Shit now look what you made me do, ignore that.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-03-25 02:16pm

You know, if Axis could only stop himself with 'Get out of the war in Iraq', he'd be right. It's a fact undisputed that ninety percent of the country wanted out. But he can't help himself, he has to paint this as 'running away from terrorism' as well.

Strawman. I did not say that Spain was "running away" from terrorism. I said that Spaniards sought to elect a party that would, in their eyes, do the least to increase terrorists' ire.

Everything I've read points to that central fact: Spaniards were upset that their government put them into Iraq and made them a target.

And I can't provide numbers because there aren't any. Why don't you tell me how many people voted because they thought the government lied to them. If you doubt what I'm saying, you also doubt everything in the American media for the past half a month.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-03-25 02:23pm

Axis Kast wrote:
You know, if Axis could only stop himself with 'Get out of the war in Iraq', he'd be right. It's a fact undisputed that ninety percent of the country wanted out. But he can't help himself, he has to paint this as 'running away from terrorism' as well.
Strawman. I did not say that Spain was "running away" from terrorism. I said that Spaniards sought to elect a party that would, in their eyes, do the least to increase terrorists' ire.

Everything I've read points to that central fact: Spaniards were upset that their government put them into Iraq and made them a target.

If you could only stop adding in bits about terrorism, you would be right for once! But you can't seperate 'Iraq' and 'Terrorists', can you? Too much exposure to Bush propaganda.

And I can't provide numbers because there aren't any. Why don't you tell me how many people voted because they thought the government lied to them. If you doubt what I'm saying, you also doubt everything in the American media for the past half a month.

You say that like learning from experience is a bad thing, Axis.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-25 02:36pm

Axis Kast wrote:And I can't provide numbers because there aren't any. Why don't you tell me how many people voted because they thought the government lied to them.

I don't know how many, that's why I never said something like: Yes, but that speaks only to some voters. Others - indeed, many - have made it quite clear that the terrorism changed their votes in the first place, rather than the cover-up after.

I'm not actually trying to bust your balls here, I'm really interested in seeing some numbers on this.

If you doubt what I'm saying, you also doubt everything in the American media for the past half a month.

Links?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-25 02:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:They actually told you they were voting in order to appease Al-Quaeda rather than voting because they were sick of the government's bullshit?

No, but if you'll trust my translating abilities they said things like "I'm afraid that Spain's presence in the Middle East will make us a target again," and "I don't want to be attacked so I think Spain should get out of the country, now. I didn't think that way before." One parent, whose child was seriously injured by the bombings, told me that he changed his vote because the new government would get them out of Iraq and he didn't want anything like that to happen to any more Spanish people. Now, as I said, the sampling was massively biased. I don't think this is at all representative of the entire country, but from the people I talked to I think there was considerable sentiment towards changing the government specifically because they saw the Spanish involvement in Iraq as being a more significant issue, or one that placed Spaniards at home in greater danger.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-03-25 03:00pm

Master of Ossus has hit the nail on the head.

As for Iraq, it does have a connection to the bombings in Spanish minds. For Spaniards, going into Iraq - and thus becoming an active and very visible part of the War on Terror - brought al-Qaeda's attention to their shores.