Bomb Found On Rail Line In Spain

[Mayabird]

Hey theski, ever stop to wonder that maybe if they didn't live in such shithole countries that the vast majority of them would have something else to do with their lives than be nutso religious fanatics? There's a reason why you find the most religious nutjobs in America in rural areas. There's nothing much else to do. You can't go to the next neighborhood to get a job because there is no next neighborhood. You're isolated. There isn't as much work, and unless you're really smart or really, really tough there's not much chance of escaping to the outside world.

So you sit around with your dead-end, pointless life. You're getting nowhere. You want a job to get some money so you can do something, but you can't. It's frustrating. You sit around wondering what the point of your existance is, why you can't do anything, what's wrong?

And then you get recruited.

Something like 20% of the Saudi workforce in unemployed. Since women are not counted at all, that's 20% of the male population in a country with a very rapidly rising population. A lot of young men with no way to vent their frustrations. Someone did a study and discovered that in EVERY country in the last fifty years that has broken out in a bloody chaotic civil war, the young men aged between 15 and 30 made up over 30% of the population. Why would that be? Because if that's the case, the population is growing rapidly. There's not enough work or land for everybody, especially the uneducated masses who are having the most children.

So you have a bunch of young men with frustrated energy that's being wasted. There are no outlets. The Saudi government doesn't like dissent, because if all these young men got angry enough they might end up overthrowing the House of Saud. So deflect them. Um, it's all America and Israel's fault! Yeah! So now go to the mosque and don't think about going against the government, ya here?

They're angry and want to do something, and they're already in the mosque. It's rather easy then for recruiters to find them and since these young people are willing to do anything at this point, they're easily brainwashed.

[Bertie Wooster]

the European countries are more liberal with their immigation policy in terms of letting Muslims into their countries and do not appear to be as imperialistic as the United States. It also appears that European countries are more willing to do business with Muslim countries, eg. Sadaam Hussein did business with France and Russia.

[HemlockGrey]

we are not muslim
we are not a theocracy
we have an open secular culture
we have 'looser' morals

So you're saying they hate us because we're Muslim radicals. No shit, Sherlock, but why them, as opposed to the millions of other Muslims?

In every religion, there are fundies and moderates. In my experience, fundies (at least Christian ones) are a product of upbringing, "evangelism", or some profound experience in their lives they attribute to God.

But saying that they're a product of their upbringing doesn't answer the question. What caused them to have the upbringing which turned them into terrorists? If we understand this, we can understand their motivations.

The Netherlands has a vastly more permissive, open culture than the US yet the Netherlands is untouched by Muslim terrorists. Obviously, there's something more here.

Also, encouraging the wholesale slaughter of Muslims, even in jest, is distasteful. I doubt anyone called for the wholesale slaughter of white people after Oklahoma City.

[Bertie Wooster]

*goddamnit, mean to quote Darth Wong*

[theski]

Mayabird wrote

Hey theski, ever stop to wonder that maybe if they didn't live in such shithole countries that the vast majority of them would have something else to do with their lives than be nutso religious fanatics? There's a reason why you find the most religious nutjobs in America in rural areas. There's nothing much else to do. You can't go to the next neighborhood to get a job because there is no next neighborhood. You're isolated. There isn't as much work, and unless you're really smart or really, really tough there's not much chance of escaping to the outside world.

So you sit around with your dead-end, pointless life. You're getting nowhere. You want a job to get some money so you can do something, but you can't. It's frustrating. You sit around wondering what the point of your existance is, why you can't do anything, what's wrong?

And then you get recruited.

Something like 20% of the Saudi workforce in unemployed. Since women are not counted at all, that's 20% of the male population in a country with a very rapidly rising population. A lot of young men with no way to vent their frustrations. Someone did a study and discovered that in EVERY country in the last fifty years that has broken out in a bloody chaotic civil war, the young men aged between 15 and 30 made up over 30% of the population. Why would that be? Because if that's the case, the population is growing rapidly. There's not enough work or land for everybody, especially the uneducated masses who are having the most children.

So you have a bunch of young men with frustrated energy that's being wasted. There are no outlets. The Saudi government doesn't like dissent, because if all these young men got angry enough they might end up overthrowing the House of Saud. So deflect them. Um, it's all America and Israel's fault! Yeah! So now go to the mosque and don't think about going against the government, ya here?

They're angry and want to do something, and they're already in the mosque. It's rather easy then for recruiters to find them and since these young people are willing to do anything at this point, they're easily brainwashed.

Very elequent.... I apprecate the thought involved...

My disagreement comes from using the fact of poverty and such as a excuse for terrorism. Under this premiss, the only way to end it is to level the world economies. Moving wealth from one country to another.In hopes of ending the hatred. It will never happen... so this means a war without end???

[fgalkin]

we aren't saying that hate us because they do. READ THE THREAD. What we are saying is they hate us because:

we are not muslim
we are not a theocracy
we have an open secular culture
we have 'looser' morals

Then why do they hate America most of all the western nations, since America is by far the least secular, most sexually repressive, most theocratic society among western nations?

Because it doesn't seem that way to them. All they see is McDonalds and Hollywood. They've never been to Georgia.

Hell, when I was living in Russia, I had not idea Christian fundamentalists even existed, much less that America was their bastion. I would suspect that people living an some shithole know even less.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Bertie Wooster]

Arab countries used to hate the British Empire but love the US prior to the 1950s. If you look at the history of anti-americanism in the middle east began after the Eisenhower administration because of policy regarding Israel.

I don't think Wahhabism differentiates between the US and European countries, besides the obvious differences in the appearance of imperialistic policy.

[theski]

Bertie Wooster wrote:

the European countries are more liberal with their immigation policy in terms of letting Muslims into their countries and do not appear to be as imperialistic as the United States. It also appears that European countries are more willing to do business with Muslim countries, eg. Sadaam Hussein did business with France and Russia.

That is changing and quick... see

Dutch lead Europe in tightening immigration laws
By ANTHONY DEUTSCH
Associated Press
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands -- Mohammed Lazizi, who fled a bloody military crackdown in his native Algeria, seems a model candidate for political asylum.

After 11 years in the Netherlands, he speaks fluent Dutch, juggles three jobs, and teaches judo to handicapped children in his spare time.

Instead, Lazizi faces imprisonment and expulsion to his volatile and violent homeland.

The Netherlands, once one of Europe's most open countries, is undergoing a fundamental shift that will turn away immigrants by the tens of thousands.

Virtually every European government is cracking down, but none as fiercely as the Dutch. Last month, its Parliament adopted a one-time measure to deport 26,000 rejected asylum seekers, and the government is preparing to open "expulsion centers" this spring where entire families will be detained pending deportation.

The first to go will be about 3,000 asylum seekers who have exhausted all possibilities

A gradual clampdown that began in 2000 has cut asylum applications by 70 percent, compared with declines of 36 percent in Germany, 38 percent in Britain and 60 percent in Belgium.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/2469874

[Joe]

we aren't saying that hate us because they do. READ THE THREAD. What we are saying is they hate us because:

we are not muslim
we are not a theocracy
we have an open secular culture
we have 'looser' morals

Then why do they hate America most of all the western nations, since America is by far the least secular, most sexually repressive, most theocratic society among western nations?

We're the biggest one, and a bigger symbol of open, secular culture than most other Western nations. It's decadent American culture that they are exposed to the most, so naturally they hate the Americans the most.

[Mayabird]

Very elequent.... I apprecate the thought involved...

Why thank you.

My disagreement comes from using the fact of poverty and such as a excuse for terrorism. Under this premiss, the only way to end it is to level the world economies. Moving wealth from one country to another.In hopes of ending the hatred. It will never happen... so this means a war without end???

I'm not excusing it in the least. I'm saying that if you have large numbers of angry poor people with no way of changing their situation you will end up having terrorism of one form or another. Where did that paranoid "They're going to 'redistribute the wealth' by taking mine!" comments come from anyway? When did I say anything about that? In a lot of the countries, a small amount of basic education (just reading and writing) and some condoms can do a lot to reduce the population crush. Just making their governments accountable to the people would do a lot to get rid of their corrupt politicians who keep their people poor and hungry by stealing the wealth of their country.

Heck, eradicating diseases has a noticable effect on national economies. When people aren't sick, they can work, and they live better off. A couple million dollars in vaccines will mean tens of millions in savings from lost labor later. That helps the economies of those countries, so there is more money floating around to create more jobs to employ people who might otherwise in their frustration have turned to suicide bombing. You could call it an investment in the future. I'm not saying "strip away our money and send it to those poor starving people in Africa." I'm just saying that a little bit of money invested in the right things in the right places could do a lot to prevent terrorism at its roots.

[Ma Deuce]

But saying that they're a product of their upbringing doesn't answer the question. What caused them to have the upbringing which turned them into terrorists? If we understand this, we can understand their motivations.

Read more carefully. I said upbringing, evangelism (prostelyzation), or a profound experience they attribute to God.

[Joe]

*snip*

Maya, Saudi Arabia even at its worst is not economically as badly off as African countries tend to be, yet there are virtually no international terrorist cells that come out of Africa (except for Islamic ones, of course). The correlation between poverty and terrorism has always struck me as weak.

[theski]

Mayabird wrote

Why thank you.

Bows............. You are very welcome......

Where did that paranoid "They're going to 'redistribute the wealth' by taking mine!" comments come from anyway? When did I say anything about that?

But who is to judge, how much is enough..or if we try and insure the population gets the aid.. we are "interfering" in a soverign nation

Just making their governments accountable to the people would do a lot to get rid of their corrupt politicians who keep their people poor and hungry by stealing the wealth of their country.

Not possible in this world.. UN makes it very tough...

I'm just saying that a little bit of money invested in the right things in the right places could do a lot to prevent terrorism at its roots.

Yes, but its the execution that gets in the way.... and the politics and the religion..

[BoredShirtless]

we aren't saying that hate us because they do. READ THE THREAD.
What we are saying is they hate us because:

we are not muslim
we are not a theocracy
we have an open secular culture
we have 'looser' morals

What a woeful list, and all satellite reasons which have no root. The roots, you ignorant hick, are as follows:

• You're playing favorites in the Isr./Pal. conflict
• Your CIA coup against the Iranian government, 1950's Reference
• You built and supported corrupt governments [Iran again, the Shah is one example]
• You invade Muslim countries without just cause [latest Iraq war]

YOU INTERFERE! THAT'S the common theme in those roots. The common theme they use to build other reasons. Used to twist the Koran. To drive their hate.

The more your government aggressively interferes, the more terrorists you'll churn out.

[Mayabird]

*snip*

Maya, Saudi Arabia even at its worst is not economically as badly off as African countries tend to be, yet there are virtually no international terrorist cells that come out of Africa (except for Islamic ones, of course). The correlation between poverty and terrorism has always struck me as weak.

True, and Saudi Arabia does have another one big difference also: a lot of those people are unemployed because they think they are too good for the many jobs that are in the country. Foreign workers shoulder much of the burden of the manual labor, and the few Saudis who do bother getting an education usually get one in "Islamic philosophy" (Memorization of the Koran) so they're basically worthless for employment anyway. That means foreigners have to be hired if they want doctors to treat them and engineers to run the oil fields. It seems they want to sit around and be managers living off oil money while foreigners toil above and below them.

Also the fact that since there is a lot of oil money floating about, it's much easier to fund those international terrorist cells and there are plenty of people they can recruit. In African countries, since they don't have the resources and they don't have a rich government telling them to blame America, they 'just' slaughter and terrorize each other.

Yeah, it is kind of a weak link when I think about it since they're not absolutely impoverished and there is plenty of money floating around, but there's still no vent for their frustrations, though self-inposed a lot of them are.

[theski]

BoredShirtless wrote:

What a woeful list, and all satellite reasons which have no root. The roots, you ignorant hick, are as follows:


You're playing favorites in the Isr./Pal. conflict

Your CIA coup against the Iranian government, 1950's Reference

You built and supported corrupt governments [Iran again, the Shah is one example]

You invade Muslim countries without just cause [latest Iraq war]



YOU INTERFERE! THAT'S the common theme in those roots. The common theme they use to build other reasons. Used to twist the Koran. To drive their hate.

The more your government aggressively interferes, the more terrorists you'll churn out.

That is such bullshit.... It must just drip off your keyboard.... The Hatred for all things western started before the Crusades and you fucking know it...

Now put this down in your notebook, because it will be on the test: The crusades were in every way a defensive war. They were the West's belated response to the Muslim conquest of fully two-thirds of the Christian world. While the Arabs were busy in the seventh through the tenth centuries winning an opulent and sophisticated empire, Europe was defending itself against outside invaders and then digging out from the mess they left behind. Only in the eleventh century were Europeans able to take much notice of the East. The event that led to the crusades was the Turkish conquest of most of Christian Asia Minor (modern Turkey). The Christian emperor in Constantinople, faced with the loss of half of his empire, appealed for help to the rude but energetic Europeans. He got it. More than he wanted, in fact

Crusades

[Col. Crackpot]

What a woeful list, and all satellite reasons which have no root. The roots, you ignorant hick, are as follows

educated city dweller actually

You're playing favorites in the Isr./Pal. conflict

the only decent arguement you have. however Israel is the only country in the region that is even remotely democratic.

Your CIA coup against the Iranian government, 1950's Reference

oh please. a British plan to keep the Iranians from going Red and destabilizing the region 50 years ago. Hardly grounds to wage a holy ward

You built and supported corrupt governments [Iran again, the Shah is one example]

thiiiiiiiiiiiin.

You invade Muslim countries without just cause [latest Iraq war]

ok thats one muslim country ruled by a lunatic that constatly waged war with his neighbors and gassed his own citizens.

YOU INTERFERE! THAT'S the common theme in those roots. The common theme they use to build other reasons. Used to twist the Koran. To drive their hate.

they twist the Koran and direct the rage towards the US because the governments are busy fucking over their people. To keep the heat of of themselves the create a popular enemy in the united states.

The more your government aggressively interferes, the more terrorists you'll churn out.

the more crooked rulers like the saudi's fuck over their own people and direct the rage outward, the more terrorists are created.

[Joe]

YOU INTERFERE! THAT'S the common theme in those roots. The common theme they use to build other reasons. Used to twist the Koran. To drive their hate.

The more your government aggressively interferes, the more terrorists you'll churn out.

Absolutely correct, which explains why the U.S. suffered from such devastating terrorist attacks as we did from angry Germans and Japanese lamenting the American destruction of the Wehrmacht and the Greater Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere respectively during the decade following WWII, and again from North Vietnamese after the Vietnam War, and why we are currently having to deal with Serbian terrorist cells angry at the fact that we bombed their country five years ago in order to save MUSLIM lives (that was the justification, anyway, even if it didn't pan out in reality), and also why there are so many Cubans risking life and limb as we speak to come to America and set off bombs in order to protest the embargo that has so hurt the Cuban economy, and once again the reason why all the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis angry about the first time we made war on their country and also ten years of sanctions. As opposed to residents of a rich country that the U.S. has given generous amounts of aid and support to over the last century and has never dropped a single bomb on like Saudi Arabia; why, residents of such a country would NEVER think of doing harm to America, since we've done so much good for their country in the past.

[BoredShirtless]

That is such bullshit.... It must just drip off your keyboard.... The Hatred for all things western started before the Crusades and you fucking know it...

I never mentioned hatred; I said "Interference". In fact I typed the word in capitals for EMPHASIS.

Yes Christians and Muslims have a bloody past. But we're talking about terrorists. And Al Queda is VERY young. Why was it born? READ OSAMA'S TRANSCRIPTS! Bases in Saudi Arabia...favoring Israel...note the common theme; YOUR UNJUST INTERFERENCE!

[Mayabird]

Where did that paranoid "They're going to 'redistribute the wealth' by taking mine!" comments come from anyway? When did I say anything about that?

But who is to judge, how much is enough..or if we try and insure the population gets the aid.. we are "interfering" in a soverign nation

How much is enough? No idea. If I knew that I wouldn't be posting here; I'd be writing my acceptance speech for my Nobel Peace Prize. Nobody knows these things. Regardless, a little bit is better than nothing. Educating one village about the true cause of a disease that afflicts them and how to prevent it means that the people in one village are healthier and more productive. You might scoff cynically but a lot of small things can make a difference.

Just making their governments accountable to the people would do a lot to get rid of their corrupt politicians who keep their people poor and hungry by stealing the wealth of their country.

Not possible in this world.. UN makes it very tough...

Why can't it happen from the inside out? It's easy to pull wool over the eyes of illiterate laborers, but a good deal harder for an educated population. I say this about America also, if you're wondering. I consider most people here rather uneducated and easily duped, but our politicians still could never get away with the crap that the ones in much less educated third-world countries do all the time.

Question: is the Carter Center directly connected to the US government in any way? I'm pretty sure they're a non-government organization, and yet they're monitoring elections around the world.

I'm just saying that a little bit of money invested in the right things in the right places could do a lot to prevent terrorism at its roots.

Yes, but its the execution that gets in the way.... and the politics and the religion..

Guinea worm has nearly been eradicated. People said it couldn't be done; they couldn't get enough support, stupid politics would get in the way. Regardless of how cynical you are about the world, there are people who give a damn and can make good changes in the world, even if they're small at the beginning.

Something I note is that you seem to assume that the government will be doing all of this. I never indicated that a government must be involved. I admit that a government would have a much easier time throwing money together in a pile, but there are a lot of NGOs that are much more efficient and effective in their work, though smaller.

[BoredShirtless]

Well we could argue and argue and get no where very fast. Before I go, theski, I didn't mean anything by calling your ideas worthless and shit. Take it easy, have a good w/e all.

[MKSheppard]

[quote="Joe"
Absolutely correct, which explains why the U.S. suffered from such devastating terrorist attacks as we did from angry Germans and Japanese lamenting the American destruction of the Wehrmacht and the Greater Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere respectively during the decade following WWII, and again from North Vietnamese after the Vietnam War, and why we are currently having to deal with Serbian terrorist cells angry at the fact that we bombed their country five years ago in order to save MUSLIM lives (that was the justification, anyway, even if it didn't pan out in reality), and also why there are so many Cubans risking life and limb as we speak to come to America and set off bombs in order to protest the embargo that has so hurt the Cuban economy, and once again the reason why all the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis angry about the first time we made war on their country and also ten years of sanctions. As opposed to residents of a rich country that the U.S. has given generous amounts of aid and support to over the last century and has never dropped a single bomb on like Saudi Arabia; why, residents of such a country would NEVER think of doing harm to America, since we've done so much good for their country in the past.[/quote]

That needs to be FUQed or preserved for posterity

[Bertie Wooster]

I dunno, BS. You have some good points, but the fact is that the Wahhabist movement dictates that all those who don't practice a form of Islam that insists on a literal interpretation of the Koran are heathen and enemies. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... abism.html

The U.S., as the leading Western Imperialistic power at this time is Wahhabisms most visible foreign enemy. If it wasn't the U.S., it would be Japan, Russia, China, France, Germany, the UK or some other non sharia-practicing power that would be #1 on it's to-destroy list.

[Crown]

You're playing favorites in the Isr./Pal. conflict

The only decent arguement you have. however Israel is the only country in the region that is even remotely democratic.

It is also the only 'remotely democratic' nation that is going to flat out refuse a 1 state solution, and continue to shrink whatever Palestinain state there will be.

Your CIA coup against the Iranian government, 1950's Reference

oh please. a British plan to keep the Iranians from going Red and destabilizing the region 50 years ago. Hardly grounds to wage a holy ward

Actually it was a British plan to stop the Iranians from nationalising their oil resources and thus keep the British Petroleum companies out of a lucrative pie. A plan the CIA was more than happy to go along with. At no time was the threat of Iran moving closer to the Soviet Union even remotely considered as an issue.

You built and supported corrupt governments [Iran again, the Shah is one example]

thiiiiiiiiiiiin.

And yet truuuuuuuuuuuue.

You invade Muslim countries without just cause [latest Iraq war]

ok thats one muslim country ruled by a lunatic that constatly waged war with his neighbors and gassed his own citizens.

Yeah but that isn't cause in its self since there are an entire plethora of corrupt tin-pot dictators which the US didn't invade in its quest to 'right the wrongs of the world', which happen to not be muslim. Your bullshit doesn't fly with me, why do you think it would fly with them?

YOU INTERFERE! THAT'S the common theme in those roots. The common theme they use to build other reasons. Used to twist the Koran. To drive their hate.

they twist the Koran and direct the rage towards the US because the governments are busy fucking over their people. To keep the heat of of themselves the create a popular enemy in the united states.

They 'twist' the Koran, because the vast majority of their recruiting grounds are already buying religion hook-line-and sinker, it is the most efficeint recruiting tool dumbfuck.

The more your government aggressively interferes, the more terrorists you'll churn out.

the more crooked rulers like the saudi's fuck over their own people and direct the rage outward, the more terrorists are created.

The vast majority of muslims around the world do not trust the US, including Turkey, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Granted the later isn't exactly a pillar of westernisation, but the former two are nowhere near the fundyness of Saudi Arabia.

But you may choose to continue to ignore any other possible arguements and self introspection, and continue with your 'it's their own governments fault' monologue as much as you like.

[Vympel]

oh please. a British plan to keep the Iranians from going Red and destabilizing the region 50 years ago. Hardly grounds to wage a holy ward

Classic bullshit- Mossadeq was *not* a 'Red', he was a democratically elected leader who wanted to nationalize the foreign oil interests bleeing his country dry with the Iranians getting *jack shit*. This is typical Cold War bullshit- the attitude that if they leader has socialist tendencies, better to replace him with a facsist dictator.

thiiiiiiiiiiiin.

Go tell an Iranian who lived through the Shah's reign that, you'll be lucky if they didn't try and punch your lights out.