Are kids more bratty now, or are teachers less effective?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I think the ever decreasing powers of teachers along with the increasing use of litigation has lead partly to what we have now. The film One Eight Seven is an extreme example (and it was LA), but you never saw that stuff happening to the extent that films were suddenly viable back a few decades.

What happened in that film?

[Axis Kast]

Are you seriously saying that having people "take their lumps" in an arbitrary hierarchy is a good thing? And that people who find themselves on top of such a hierarchy are automatically better than the people on the bottom?

Not in the sense you put it. But I'll be damned if I didn't encounter plenty of freshman and sophomores who deserved to be told off for their behavior.

In all my observations, it has been due to a combination of the anti-intellectual/anti-education attitudes of many children combined with a decreased ability to punish troublemakers. When kids feel more like talking back then ever and the teachers are not allowed to reprimand them for it, you're bound to have some trouble.

Precisely. Schools can no longer enforce discipline without extensive parental involvement.

The same is true even in summer camps where I work, for example. When I was a camper of age 12 or 13, I remember we were all locked in the locker rooms for about ten or fifteen minutes when we were exceptionally badly behaved as a group. Some trouble-makers were threatened with obliged to spend the whole day holding hands except when in the bathroom or locker rooms.

Less than six years later, those kinds of punishments are unthinkable.

[Axis Kast]

What happened in that film?

Spoiler

IIRC, the main character switched schools after being assaulted. When he discovered that other teachers were in the same boat, and when a friend underwent a similar experience to his, he went after the young men responsible (who were gang-bangers who regularly shot people in cold blood). In the end, however, he was killed by members of a gang. Forced to commit suicide.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Physical punishment is not the answer, and that's just retrograde thinking.

I agree with this. Although it would be nice to have the kind of punitive abilities that are non-violent which are now frowned upon, like humiliating the worst offenders with embarassing punishments or transferring them into remedial classes for a day whenever they get too far out of line.

Want a solution? Fail the kid.

The feedback is too delayed. By the time the kid is "punished," or failed, he will have disrupted class for months, damaging the educations of every other child in the class. Expelling him might work, but that can be really hard to do if a teacher has a stodgy principal.

Besides, teachers are repeatedly taught to save every kid. If the child fails that really means the teacher failed.... So they are somewhat reluctant to just say "screw it" and dump the little bastard.

And lest you say that the parents might make a lot of noise, SO FUCKING WHAT? They have no legal case, and if the school board decides to take their bullshit seriously, that's a problem with the school board itself.

The big deal is that a teacher is a human being, too. They don't want to spend their nights and weekends fending off litigious parents and angry schoolboards. They have to prepare unit plans and lesson plans, grade homework, deal with staff meetings, communicate with the parents (at least the good teachers do) and so on. One noisy parent can make a teacher's life a living hell. I've known parents who practically stalk their children's teachers so that they can harass them. It doesn't happen often, but with 6 classes a day, it is likely that most teachers will have to deal with such assholes.

[tharkûn]

So this leads to the question: when teachers complain about how kids are so much worse today, how much of that is due to their own skills or lack thereof? After all, when a 30 year old teacher complains that kids are much worse today than they were 30 years ago, how would he know? And why are the older ones able to control them better?

He would most likely be listening to his colleagues tell him how things used to be and forgetting to think about such recollections critically.

Older ones are better for numerous reasons. Like any profession experience breeds proficiency. Further the older a teacher is the more likely they are to have had and raised kids on their own, and hence have massive practical experience handling kids.

Besides older teachers don't illicit the same power challenges that young teachers do. There is zilch for machismo to be gained from physically assaulting a 60 year old lady, there is phenomenal amounts in going after the 20 something. I think older teachers manage to tap the "grandparent" angle and fewer kids see the point in stupid power plays whereas young teachers are viewed as peers (and hence rivals) or parents which makes them "fair game".

But why is the disparity worse today? Well new teachers get taught more mush in college. The economic dynamics are attracting a completely different set of people to careers in teaching than back when the old teachers entered the profession. Most certainly some of the problem is the sad state of teaching unions and the utter lack of self-governance within the teaching profession. Massive politization of everything in the education field from all sides certainly hasn't helped the mess.

And the kids are worse today. More kids are coming out of single parent and broken homes. More kids are being shoved into umpteen extracurricular activities and fewer kids attach any real value to their schooling. Popular culture is a friggen plague that devalues intellect, respect, and self control ... all of which shows up in the attitude of kids in school.

[Zaia]

That woman just has pure command presence, of which I am still in awe.

Anyone who's had to get up in front of 25-30 (or in my case 75-100) students in a classroom knows that just getting up and talking to them can be challenging, let alone teaching informative, enjoyable lessons while remaining in complete control of them. It takes practice and talent, which is why only a few teachers, most of whom are older teachers, can do it with any consistency.

[Elfdart]

Isn't part of the difference the fact that the older teachers are more experienced, know what they can and can't do (i.e. what the admin will allow them to do and still back them up), and the newer ones don't? Older teachers have probably seen the different types of misbehavior and know what to do from practical experience, and their younger counterparts don't.

Then there's the issue of tenure. Someone who realizes he or she can't be fired without just cause has a lot more leeway than a newcomer. Also, someone who is near retirement probably isn't impressed by bitching parents and brownnosers on the school board.

There is a difference in the way parents act. I can only remember once where my parents took my side in a dispute with the teacher or principal, aside from when I registered in Jr. high and my father told the vice principal that if any member of the faculty ever hit either myself or my sister, they'd be off solid food for a long time. Everyone I knew was the same way with their parents. If you forgot your homework, flunked a test, were sent to the office or whatever, you were in even bigger trouble than you were at school. You sure as hell didn't want your parents to hear from the teacher that you had fucked up.

Today, a lot of parents think their little Buster Browns are god's gift to the world and if they got a zero for not turning in their homework, it's the teacher's fault! My ex was a teacher and she said yuppie parents were by far the worst. When several were caught plagiarizing and failed, their parents bitched at her! They insisted it was her fault and her responsibility when they didn't study or do homework. She told me that after the twentieth or so time she told one of these schmuck parents "I'm responsible? Funny, I don't remember giving birth to him." she wanted out of that fucking place.

As far as meds are concerned, here in Texas it's a criminal offense for a teacher or admin to suggest Ritalin or other drugs for students and their parents.

[Axis Kast]

There is a difference in the way parents act. I can only remember once where my parents took my side in a dispute with the teacher or principal, aside from when I registered in Jr. high and my father told the vice principal that if any member of the faculty ever hit either myself or my sister, they'd be off solid food for a long time. Everyone I knew was the same way with their parents. If you forgot your homework, flunked a test, were sent to the office or whatever, you were in even bigger trouble than you were at school. You sure as hell didn't want your parents to hear from the teacher that you had fucked up.

Amen. Fears of disappointing my parents - and having to face the consequences of my own actions - were always potent factors behind my good behavior and consciencious attitude.

[Stark]

On the 'rights without responsibilites' thing, isn't that just the way the school society works now? Its not the victorian House of Pain anymore, and yet the control void hasn't been filled by anything else. School is ONLY daycare, where a few isolated members of faculty are worthy of respect and the majority are young and foppish or old and riddled with personal problems.

Kids aren't naturally worse than when I was young - I spend a bit of time with younger kids (everyone my age has kids but me, go figure) and they're (largely) the same as I remember from back in the day. *I* can control kids, without any authority or power at all. School, however, is definately the place where bad behaviour will manifest. Schools just don't seem to appreciate this, and don't have any mechanisms to establish control.

Society is largely about control. We all conform to one degree or another; in school, conforming to your friends is far more imporant than conforming to what appear to be arbitary and meaningless rules. Since we can't force this with violence any more, don't we need to come up with an alternative, unlike the present situation where schools just hope a lot? You see, I say kids aren't worse than a decade ago - I mean *personally*. School-wise, they are much worse.

In school I remember respecting several teachers both as professionals and friends, and I remember despising others as laughable. I DON'T remember any of the school's attempts to enforce control being even slightly effective on anyone but the dumbest and weakest. Obviously new tactics are required.

Parents have a massive effect on their children; until one of my friends had a daughter, I never appreciated how much the methods of raising children can so quickly shape their personality. I've also met a huge number of utterly appalling parents. Its sad, in a way, but whinging about it doesn't help find a solution.

[Elfdart]

There is a difference in the way parents act. I can only remember once where my parents took my side in a dispute with the teacher or principal, aside from when I registered in Jr. high and my father told the vice principal that if any member of the faculty ever hit either myself or my sister, they'd be off solid food for a long time. Everyone I knew was the same way with their parents. If you forgot your homework, flunked a test, were sent to the office or whatever, you were in even bigger trouble than you were at school. You sure as hell didn't want your parents to hear from the teacher that you had fucked up.

Amen. Fears of disappointing my parents - and having to face the consequences of my own actions - were always potent factors behind my good behavior and consciencious attitude.

You forgot fear of the old man's size 12 boot.

[Axis Kast]

You forgot fear of the old man's size 12 boot.

My parents never went that far, but they could and did restrict privledges when I behaved poorly or under-performed in school.

[Elfdart]

You forgot fear of the old man's size 12 boot.

My parents never went that far, but they could and did restrict privledges when I behaved poorly or under-performed in school.

I said the fear of the boot. I didn't have to actually get my ass kicked any more than I had to put my right hand in a lion's mouth to know it's something I didn't want to experience.

[Xenophobe3691]

You forgot fear of the old man's size 12 boot.

Actually, I more feared my mother. Nothing like an enraged Dominican Mother to keep you in line...

[Darth Wong]

So the only answer to my challenge to prove that these problems are actually worse today than they were 30 years ago is a lot of anecdotal "when I was a kid, I remember ..." bullshit?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

There's not a lot of research in that area, so it's hard to get any kind of numbers for you.

Hell, in the U.S. there isn't a whole lot of practical research in education, period. Most of the changes in teaching methods over the last two decades have been designed by politicians or committes full of administrators and businessmen. In most of my classes, the research we learn about was done in the 50s and 60s and hasn't really been improved upon, and is still largely ignored when it comes to state policy anyway.

[tharkûn]

So the only answer to my challenge to prove that these problems are actually worse today than they were 30 years ago is a lot of anecdotal "when I was a kid, I remember ..."

As a matter of degree it is obvious that things are worse.

30 years ago more kids came from two parent homes, single parent families correlate extremely well with disciplinary problems, lower acheivement, and generally harder to teach kids. More kids with "broken families" does mean more brats in the schools.

[Spoonist]

A few things:

-> Darth Wong
Regarding if things are worse or not today.
Don't quote me as saying its worse today but:
1. It seems that there are a lot of research pointing out that substance use (nicotine/alcohol/etc) of pregnant mothers increases the risk of antisocial/criminal/violent behavior in kids. Especially boys who seem especially prone to ADHD and other attention dirorders.
Now it used to be socially unacceptable for women to smoke or drink even when not pregnant, something which changed during the 60's and 70's. The research is all over the place if you search for it.
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/92/6/966
http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514270800/html/x777.html
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/a ... 82-286.htm
So there are a lot more kids with medical antisocial behaviour today than there was just a few decades ago. This means that there will be more disruptive elements if you don't take care of these kids.
Now there are lots of methods with handling attention disorders and dyslexia without using medication, but usually they are more costly and the parents have to agree to their child going to special schools, something which is getting harder and harder to get.

2. Puberty hits earlier today. That means that just a few decades ago girls would hit puberty around 13 and boys around 15. Today in american kids of its around 10 and 13. This means a heightening of hormon levels with obvious effects.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 ... uberty.htm
http://www.schoolnurse.com/article2.html
http://www.psy.pdx.edu/PsiCafe/Areas/De ... l/Puberty/

3. Criminal behavior goes lower in ages as well. Juvenile arrests are all-time high.

4. Time spent with parents are decreasing.

Oops break over, I have to finish...