Earthquake off Japan

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
starslayer
Jedi Knight
Posts: 731
Joined: 2008-04-04 08:40pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by starslayer »

Stas Bush wrote:Hasn't it? Leaks of radioactive Pu in soil is long-term damage, or so I thought.
Odd, I hadn't seen anything about that. In any case, it depends on how much. Pu-239 does have a relatively long half-life (24,000 years or so), and is very toxic even discounting the radiation threat, so if a ton of it got released, yeah it would tend to rule out long-term habitation if you couldn't dig out the entire area for some reason. If it's not a whole lot and it hasn't been there long, then you can either ignore it (in the case of a small leak) or remove the top layer of soil, which should get most of it, since plutonium isn't very mobile in the environment.
His Divine Shadow wrote:Some sources even said "natural traces", which considering Pu isn't really found in nature has gotta be really, really tiny.
Interestingly enough, some plutonium is found in nature. Pu-244 has a half-life of 80 million years, long enough that just a bit is left over from Earth's formation. But you're right that it is a very tiny concentration.
Pendleton
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2011-03-17 03:36pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Pendleton »

Master of Ossus wrote:What are you talking about? The core at Chernobyl wasn't exactly cool when they built the sarcophagus over it. In fact, it was dramatically hotter than any of the temperatures recorded at Fukushima.
It's really not that simple. The Chernobyl reactor (singular) had already melted down into a single, relatively cool chunk of lava within the containment area, and even with the vast majority of the radioactive material blown out, they had to use thousands and thousands of liquidators to bring even that mass under control before they could go about adding neutron absorbing mass.

Compare this to Fukushima. You have several reactors, all in separate flooded halls with radiation far too high to work in. There is coolant being circulated now, yes, but that residual decay heat is demonstrably hot enough to damage immediate containment and burn up or explode if cooling is lost for even a short period of time. They would have to bring the reactors under control (which is TEPCO and the IAEA's plan anyway) and ensure the systems in place to cool the reactors are completely fail safe, along with not likely to leak into the surrounding environment.

It's a very risky and not even long term solution. The Chernobyl sarcophagus is in disrepair after barely three decades, and that was one turbine hall with one reactor that had already blown itself out and without the hundreds of tonnes of spent fuel and countless litres of hot water, both thermally and radioactively.

Watch the operation that took place at Chernobyl (Dr. Kaku's comments on the matter are relevant too). Entombment is not a wash your hands free solution, nor is it even really viable right now.
The whole point is to build a sarcophagus outside and covering the reactors. For that matter, it's not clear to me that building one is necessarily going to compromise efforts to cool the reactors (even if they decided that that were important to do). A sarcophagus is basically just an external containment structure, to supplement the normal one (which had never even existed at Chernobyl, incidentally). The current containment structures don't cause problems for cooling the cores under normal circumstances; why must this one?
This is the proposed idea, but again, the risks and situation right now are why this plan isn't being put to use currently. This is either for a very good reason, or TEPCO and the Japanese government are just inept. They could dump tin and boron suspension water along with dolomite, silicon and concrete in a matter of days. They clearly haven't, and it's been three weeks. You need to question why the experts didn't think to do this already.
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5195
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by LaCroix »

Let's see what the experts speak...

from http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/201 ... afull.html

On Plutonium:
Traces of plutonium are not uncommon in soil because they were deposited worldwide during the atmospheric nuclear testing era. However, the isotopic composition of the plutonium found at Fukushima Daiichi suggests the material came from the reactor site, according to TEPCO officials. Still, the quantity of plutonium found does not exceed background levels tracked by Japan's Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology over the past 30 years.
On radiation levels:
On 27 March, deposition of iodine-131 was detected in 9 prefectures, and deposition of cesium-137 in 4 prefectures. The highest values were observed in the prefecture of Tochigi with 320 becquerel per square metre for iodine-131 and 73 becquerel per square metre for caesium-137. In the other prefectures where deposition of iodine-131 was reported, on 27 March, the range was from 6.4 to 110 becquerel per square metre. For caesium-137, the range was from 16 to 61 becquerel per square metre. In the Shinjyuku district of Tokyo, the daily deposition of iodine-131 on 27 March was 100 becquerel per square metre, while for caesium-137 it was 36 becquerel per square metre. No significant changes were reported in the 45 prefectures in gamma dose rates compared to yesterday.

Two IAEA teams are currently monitoring radiation levels and radioactivity in the environment in Japan. One team made gamma dose-rate measurements in the Tokyo and Chiba region at 3 locations. Gamma-dose rates measured ranged from 0.08 to 0.13 microsievert per hour, which is within or slightly above the background. The second team made additional measurements at distances of 30 to 46 km from the Fukushima nuclear power plant. At these locations, the dose rates ranged from 0.5 to 3 microsievert per hour. At the same locations, results of beta-gamma contamination measurements ranged from 0.02 to 0.3 Megabecquerel per square metre.

New results from the marine monitoring stations 30 km off-shore were received for seawater samples taken on 26 March. The levels decreased at most of the locations. For iodine-131 the concentration results for four monitoring stations are between 6 to 18 becquerel per litre, and for caesium-137 between "below limit of detection" and 16 becquerel per litre. The dose rates measured on the sea surface remain relatively low between 0.04 and 0.1 microsievert per hour.

Samples collected on 26 March 330 metres east of the discharge point showed increasing concentrations. There were found to be 74,000 becquerel per litre for iodine-131, 12,000 becquerel per litre for caesium-137, and 12,000 becquerel per litre for caesium-134.

It is still too early to draw conclusions for expected concentrations in marine food, because the situation can change rapidly. Modelling results show an initial north-eastern transport of liquid releases from the damaged reactors.

Monitoring of iodine-131 and cesium-137 in drinking water is on-going. Iodine-131 has been monitored by the Japanese authorities in 2 of 10 samples taken in the Fukushima prefecture with values of 60 and 90 becquerel per litre. In the Ibaraki prefectures, iodine-131 was detected in 2 of 9 samples, the values were 40 and 90 becquerel per litre. The Japanese limits for the ingestion of drinking water by infants is 100 becquerel per litre.

As far as food contamination is concerned, samples reported from 26 to 27 March in six prefectures (Fukushima, Gunma, Ibaraki, Niigata, Tochigi and Yamagata) reported iodine-131 in asparagus, cabbage, celery, chive, cucumber, eggplant, leek, mushrooms, parsley, tomato, spinach and other leafy vegetables, strawberries and watermelon. One sample of hana wasabi taken on 24 March in Fukushima prefecture was above the regulation values set by the Japanese authorities. Caesium-137 was also measured above the regulation value in the same sample of hana wasabi, but in the remaining five prefectures, caesium-137 was not detected or the results were below regulation values.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28812
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Broomstick »

PeZook wrote:They could even be residue from Fat Boy, which was pretty dirty as far as nukes went.
Well, yeah, it used a plutonium core, after all, although it's my understanding that if it had been a ground strike it would have been dirtier yet.

In reality, anywhere you look in the world now has some traces of Pu in the soil, that's to all the above-ground nuclear testing back in the 20th Century. That's the "natural" level they talk about, the amount deposited by fall out 40-70 years ago. It's pretty damn small in most locations, sometimes near the threshold of detectability, but it's there if you look for it.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
D.Turtle
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1909
Joined: 2002-07-26 08:08am
Location: Bochum, Germany

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by D.Turtle »

According to this (german news) blog post Plutonium was found at 5 sites. The levels were barely at the detectable level. In addition, using the ratio of the various isotopes to get their age, it seems that three of those were still from the time of above-ground nuclear testing, while two were from the current catastrophe in Fukushima.
Rahvin
Jedi Knight
Posts: 615
Joined: 2005-07-06 12:51pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Rahvin »

Stas Bush wrote:Hasn't it? Leaks of radioactive Pu in soil is long-term damage, or so I thought.
It's not necessarily so bad. I used to work less than 300 yards away from a Plutonium cleanup site on an old Air Force base. They had a large tent covering the contaminated area to prevent trace particles from blowing around, but they were able to clean up most of the site. We were able to drink the water without fear of contamination. No radiation poisoning, no cancer.

The only reason I even knew that the big tent covered a Pu cleanup site was because my previous employer was the company that performed the cleanup.
"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT, creationist from evcforum.net
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

To nobody's surprise Reactors 1-4 will be scrapped.
Japan is to decommission four stricken reactors at the quake-hit Fukushima nuclear plant, the operator says.

Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco) made the announcement three weeks after failing to bring reactors 1 - 4 under control. Locals would be consulted on reactors 5 and 6, which were shut down safely.

Harmful levels of radioactivity have been detected in the area.

More than 11,000 people are known to have been killed by the devastating 11 March earthquake and tsunami.

Emperor Akihito visited a centre for earthquake and tsunami victims in the Tokyo area on Wednesday.
Rolling blackouts

The emperor's visit "gives me strength" said one of the evacuees.

Japanese experts are considering whether to cover the reactor buildings at the Fukushima Daiichi plant with a special material, to stop the spread of radioactive substances, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano says.

On Wednesday, the government ordered nuclear power plant operators to start implementing new safety measures immediately.

The steps - to be completed by the end of April - include preparing back-up power in case of loss of power supply.

Fire trucks will be on standby to intervene and ensure cooling systems for both reactors and pools of used fuel are maintained.

Minister of Economy, Trade and Industry Banri Kaieda said this did not mean that nuclear plant operations should be halted.

Tepco's president Masataka Shimizu has been admitted to hospital, suffering from high blood pressure and dizziness.

Hours later, Tepco chairman Tsunehisa Katsumata spoke to reporters for the first time.

He admitted that the company had not been able to cool the reactors, and pledged maximum efforts to stabilise them. And he added that reactors 1-4 would eventually have to be shut down for good.

Mr Katsumata said his company was preparing to compensate those suffering damage caused by radiation leaks.

The chairman also apologised for the inconvenience caused by the rolling blackouts imposed to cope with power shortages.

The earthquake and tsunami damaged the nuclear plant's power supply, leading to a failure of the cooling systems.

Since then engineers have been using seawater to cool down the core of the reactors, but the operation has failed to stop radioactive leaks.

Japan's Prime Minister Naoto Kan has said the country is on "maximum alert".

Tepco has been accused of a lack of transparency and failing to provide information promptly.
Seawater radiation

Seawater near the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant has reached a much higher level of radiation than previously reported.

The new readings near reactor No 1 - 300m (984ft) from the shore - showed radioactive iodine at 3,355 times the legal limit, said Japan's nuclear safety agency.

Earlier samples had put the iodine level in the sea at 1,850 times the legal limit.

Much lower - but still elevated levels - of the same radioactive element have been found in seawater as far as 16km (10 miles) to the south.

Tepco and the safety agency say the exact source of the leak is unknown.

"Iodine 131 has a half-life of eight days, and even considering its concentration in marine life, it will have deteriorated considerably by the time it reaches people," Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy director-general of Japan's nuclear safety agency told a news conference.

Radioactive materials are measured by scientists in half-lives, or the time it takes to halve the radiation through natural decay.

Iodine 131 was blamed for the high incidence of thyroid cancer among children exposed to fallout from the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in 1986.

Workers at the Fukushima plant are trying to prevent radioactive water from seeping into the sea.

Highly radioactive liquid has been found inside and outside several reactor buildings.

Small amounts of plutonium have also been detected in soil at the plant - the latest indication that one of the reactors suffered a partial meltdown.

But, like the discovery of plutonium, the high levels of radiation found inside and outside reactor buildings are likely to have come from melted fuel rods.

Theories for the leak centre on two possibilities - steam is flowing from the core into the reactor housing and escaping through cracks, or the contaminated material is leaking from the damaged walls of the water-filled pressure control pool beneath the No 2 reactor.

The plutonium - used in the fuel mix in the No 3 reactor - is not at levels that threaten human health, officials said.
The BBC also provides this supplemental:
Fukushima update (30 March)
* Reactor 1: Damage to the core from cooling problems. Building holed by gas explosion. Highly radioactive water detected in reactor
* Reactor 2: Damage to the core from cooling problems. Building holed by gas blast; containment damage suspected. Highly radioactive water detected in reactor and adjoining tunnel
* Reactor 3: Damage to the core from cooling problems. Building holed by gas blast; containment damage possible. Spent fuel pond partly refilled with water after running low. Highly radioactive water detected in reactor
* Reactor 4: Reactor shut down prior to quake. Fires and explosion in spent fuel pond; water level partly restored
* Reactors 5 & 6: Reactors shut down. Temperature of spent fuel pools now lowered after rising high
So, in short, reactors 1-3 suspected core damage. Not to mention hydrogen explosions trashed the reactor buildings. Reactor 4 itself is okay, but its building was trashed by a hydrogen explosion and fires from the cooling pond. Its fuel has possibly been damaged. Reactors 5 and 6 are okay, but their ultimate fate now rests with the community.
Pendleton
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2011-03-17 03:36pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Pendleton »

I have heard that if they go with entombment, they may well write off the whole site. If it's that bad already, I wonder why they haven't started with covering the exposed containment buildings now. They can't salvage anything from this, and there will likely be an exclusion zone for generations, so why they're risking lives with what they're doing now remains a mystery to some observers.
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Pendleton wrote:I have heard that if they go with entombment, they may well write off the whole site. If it's that bad already, I wonder why they haven't started with covering the exposed containment buildings now. They can't salvage anything from this, and there will likely be an exclusion zone for generations, so why they're risking lives with what they're doing now remains a mystery to some observers.
It's not going to be an exclusion zone for "generations." The vast majority of radioactive material released is in the form of short-lived isotopes with half-lives on the order of days. Furthermore, there actually is talk of putting tarps over the wrecked reactor buildings in a bid to limit release of radioactive material. Finally, Japan does have a pressing need for electrical power. Getting reactors 5 and 6 back online and generating electricity would likely do more to save and protect lives and livelihoods than dismantling the entire powerplant out of some "ZOMG TEH NUKULARZ IS GUNNA KILL US ALL!!!11" sentiment.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28812
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Broomstick »

Pendleton wrote:I have heard that if they go with entombment, they may well write off the whole site. If it's that bad already, I wonder why they haven't started with covering the exposed containment buildings now. They can't salvage anything from this, and there will likely be an exclusion zone for generations, so why they're risking lives with what they're doing now remains a mystery to some observers.
Leaving literal tons of water in the lower levels of those buildings will do nothing for the stability of the site. I would think they'd have to pump that out, at the very least, before permanently sealing the buildings. After all, whatever they build on top of the mess has to last for a while, and if the foundaton isn't stable the building won't be either.

So, I imagine it's engineering problems of that nature which is causing a "delay" in building a sarcophagus type structure, if they're thinking of going that way. The better cleaned up, contained, and stablized such a site is the more enduring the resulting cover for it will be.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
HarrionGreyjoy
Youngling
Posts: 52
Joined: 2010-05-02 12:49am

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by HarrionGreyjoy »

Stas Bush wrote:A containment structure would not harm the effort to reduce leaks, that's for sure. The news reported that they are putting a temporary containment structure (sort of a protective coating or whatnot, I had no time to look into the details). In time, they could put a permanent structure there.
The secondary containment vessel (ie, the layer outside the actual reactor containment) of most/all modern reactors is designed to be easily converted to a sarcophagus structure anyway for just such an eventuality; that may be what you're referring to, where they basically plug the designed gaps - and, uh, the undesigned leaks that appear to be involved - with concrete/whatever. In theory this would BE a permanent structure; in practice, if it was damaged badly enough to leak when the tertiary containment blew to smithereens, the Japanese government will probably want to be a bit more sure.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37389
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Sea Skimmer »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: It's not going to be an exclusion zone for "generations." The vast majority of radioactive material released is in the form of short-lived isotopes with half-lives on the order of days. Furthermore, there actually is talk of putting tarps over the wrecked reactor buildings in a bid to limit release of radioactive material. Finally, Japan does have a pressing need for electrical power. Getting reactors 5 and 6 back online and generating electricity would likely do more to save and protect lives and livelihoods than dismantling the entire powerplant out of some "ZOMG TEH NUKULARZ IS GUNNA KILL US ALL!!!11" sentiment.
I think Pendleton is right. While the physical danger may not require such long term measures, the reuse of the site will be deeply political and the Japanese have been shown to be very bit as ignorant about the risk and limits of the risk of nuclear power as the US or European populations, if not more so. That means at the least no one is going to build anything else on that site until radiation levels have completely returned to normal and not a single trace of contamination can be found. That pretty easily will take 50-75 years if not longer considering the Cs-137 half life of 30 years. It might become parkland or a wildlife area sooner then anyone will build on the land, but even then it may be fenced off after that occurs.

Over near me in the US, we have a site over in New Jersey at which a nuclear warhead armed Bomarc missile exploded and burned in 1960, scattering the Pu-239 in the the warhead into the ground over a localized area, some also just melted in to the dirt. Despite the complete removal of the contaminated buildings (each Bomarc was in a concrete hanger in rows) and soil to a considerable depth back in 1960, the place is still fenced off and posted with radiation hazard signs to this day. The risk doesn't exist, but no one is willing to say it doesn't.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Pendleton
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2011-03-17 03:36pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Pendleton »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: It's not going to be an exclusion zone for "generations." The vast majority of radioactive material released is in the form of short-lived isotopes with half-lives on the order of days. Furthermore, there actually is talk of putting tarps over the wrecked reactor buildings in a bid to limit release of radioactive material. Finally, Japan does have a pressing need for electrical power. Getting reactors 5 and 6 back online and generating electricity would likely do more to save and protect lives and livelihoods than dismantling the entire powerplant out of some "ZOMG TEH NUKULARZ IS GUNNA KILL US ALL!!!11" sentiment.
This is incorrect. The IAEA have already confirmed 3.7 MBq/sq. m readings as far as 40 klicks from Fukushima in soil samples found at Itiate village for cæsium-137 (λ = 30.17 years) . To put that into perspective, the Chernobyl long term evacuation levels used by the USSR safety commission were 1.48 MBq/sq. m. This is consistent with the output of radionuclides detected in aerosol by ZAMG which have already met the output of Chernobyl's emissions, and which are being monitored by the IAEA and French nuclear authority. This also shows the Japanese government was, yet again, negligent in not having a 40 km exclusion zone set up from the start to er on the side of caution. I'm not alone in this view, as many in the international energy community are getting short on patience with the people dealing with this crises and their constant apologies. I can't believe I'm saying it, but the communists handled this far more efficiently than the Japanese have so far, even if Chernobyl was a different kind of disaster, it had a very quick and effectively sized response.

Also, I wasn't just referring to soil, but to marine contamination, which is effectively impossible to clear up, and for an island nation, a very big deal. The only real counter to this is dilution (as is historically the precedent given the sheer amount of nuclear waste dumped into the ocean before the London accord were agree to, something Japan is a signatory of).

I also think we're overlooking a rather large negative for TEPCO's plans on reusing reactors 5 and 6, regardless of their physical integrity: public opposition. We see a sizeable shift against nuclear in the public mind every time a major incident happens (and don't be fooled, this is a major incident). The longevity of any anti-nuclear movement is unknown, but it isn't a stretch to suggest that, if this takes several years to clean up, as the Japanese authorities have hinted at (and given their 30 year record for decommissioning a perfectly safe reactor at Tokai, I have to agree with this assessment), then the public may be completely unwilling in allowing what has been a completely botched attempt to save this reactor plant to pave the way for new nuclear build out, or even the continued use of nuclear power at Fukushima. This is not related to whether Japan needs this power or not, since public reactions are very rarely based on long term requirements or rational, unemotional feelings. For an equivalent, look to the US for LNG terminal and oil refinery build applications.

EDIT: And I see Sea Skimmer highlighted my point before I could get a signal to post this message. I dislike these dark spots for mobile communications near me.
Last edited by Pendleton on 2011-03-30 06:53pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Neko_Oni
Padawan Learner
Posts: 389
Joined: 2002-09-11 09:15am
Location: Tokyo, Japan.

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Neko_Oni »

Microsievert.net
An interesting visual representation of the radiation levels around Japan. Values may not be up to date, but it still gives a nice view of the general idea.

Left to Right, Top to Bottom

Average Global Natural Background Level;
Maximum Limit for Workers;
The amount required to increase the chance of cancer by 0.5%;
The amount that would warrant immediate evacuation from the area;

30km North-West of Fukushima No 1 Nuclear Plant;
Ibaraki Prefecture, Mito City;
Tochigi Prefecture, Utunomiya City;
Gunma Prefecture, Maebashi City;

Saitama Prefecture, Saitama City;
Chiba Prefecture, Ichihara City;
Tokyo, Shinjuku Ward;
Kanagawa Prefecture, Chigasaki City;
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37389
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Pendleton wrote: EDIT: And I see Sea Skimmer highlighted my point before I could get a signal to post this message. I dislike these dark spots for mobile communications near me.
Sorry about that!

They may have no choice running no.5 and no.6 some though; Japan is still having rolling blackouts as far as I can tell, and building new power plants will take some time.
Last edited by Sea Skimmer on 2011-03-30 06:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Pendleton
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2011-03-17 03:36pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Pendleton »

If anyone else is interested, the NHK live feed has been showing a good programme on the economic fallout of this crises since the tsunami and nuclear incident took hold. The number of factories affected by the Fukushima plant alone will cause a considerable problem for Japan's economy, with domino effects for the globalised economy coming in the not-too-distant future. Some are already here, as with the Ford closures in Gent, Belgium and loss of semiconductor imports for China and the US.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by K. A. Pital »

Pendleton wrote:I can't believe I'm saying it, but the communists handled this far more efficiently than the Japanese have so far, even if Chernobyl was a different kind of disaster, it had a very quick and effectively sized response.
You're not the only person who noted that. As for shutting down the plant, today on the TV they announced TEPCO plans for complete shutdown. Not sure how accurate this is.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28812
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Broomstick »

Just keep in mind that at the time the Soviets were dealing with Chernobyl they weren't also dealing with the effects of 9.0 earthquake and 10 meter tsunami.. I can't help but think having so many major disasters at once is affecting how well the Japanese deal with the several simultaneous emergencies.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Pendleton
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2011-03-17 03:36pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Pendleton »

Broomstick wrote:Just keep in mind that at the time the Soviets were dealing with Chernobyl they weren't also dealing with the effects of 9.0 earthquake and 10 meter tsunami.. I can't help but think having so many major disasters at once is affecting how well the Japanese deal with the several simultaneous emergencies.
True, this is an extraordinary circumstance and it's clearly something even the best planning can't really deal with. However, assistance was offered, and declined in cases, from the international community. It is only now that we're really getting a proper handle on what is going on, even then, an early admission of how serious this situation is or could become, would have potentially avoided the explosions that rocked the containment buildings of Fukushima Daiichi.

In the latest developments, the situation appears to be worsening. The highest levels of radiation in the ocean have been detected now, at over 4,000 times acceptable levels. There are still readings of I-131, which if containment hadn't been compromised, would have subsided now (5 half-lives should be enough for a near zero reading, but levels remain high).

The organic seals to the control rods situated on the flanges of maintenance panels have decayed, which would explain the leak from the RPV in the absence of a serious crack, although as of yet, no one has physically entered that containment area to verify as the dosage in the turbine hall is enough to deliver a fatal dose in 1-2 hours, with the containment building being able to deliver the same dose in approx. 5 minutes. There is also the suggestion of recriticality within Reactor 1, which could be leading to neutron flux, something that would seriously affect robots, to say nothing of humans assessing the state of the reactor.

With these areas, even the airspace directly over the containment buildings, being areas of lethal radiation levels over 1 Sv/hr, it is impossible to do anything closer to the problems than shooting water from cannons. Remember, all the while those pressure vessels and pipes will be getting corroded by the brine used before, which will have deposited salt crystals from the time when sea water was used for emergency cooling. I have heard some suggest the sea is even infiltrating lower areas of the plant still, but I find the contamination would likely be down to water from pumping being sloughed off into the sea given the plant's location and elevation.

It's now a race against the clock to get an handle on these reactors before the radiation levels get to lethal doses around the otherwise low contaminated areas of the plant outside the melted reactors. This could lead to more and more evacuations as levels spike, making cooling efforts trickier and risking allowing the reactors and hot spent fuel loads to reignite and even explode again. Every fire releases more aerosolised nuclides, and with the emergency steam vents allowing traces to be detected in Scotland, accordingly to latest data, higher concentration vents or continued ones from uncontrolled vents, could produce higher contaminant levels in these clouds.

It is somewhat fortuitous that leaks have formed to allow pressure to be kept relatively low, but this does mean leaks will be radioactively hot and unable to be stopped entering the environment with no storage or ability to recycle coolant fluid through a heat exchanger setup.

Apologies if there are any typos, I'm doing this from my mobile. I'll post links to the sources I'm finding useful when I get home.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28812
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Broomstick »

Pendleton wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Just keep in mind that at the time the Soviets were dealing with Chernobyl they weren't also dealing with the effects of 9.0 earthquake and 10 meter tsunami.. I can't help but think having so many major disasters at once is affecting how well the Japanese deal with the several simultaneous emergencies.
True, this is an extraordinary circumstance and it's clearly something even the best planning can't really deal with. However, assistance was offered, and declined in cases, from the international community.
Nations have a bad habit of refusing help, and if anything the more industrialized/developed nations are the worst offenders (aside from a few cases like Myanmar). I think it has something to do with not wanting to be perceived as weak, possibly also not wanting intrusion on bureaucratic territory, but it's getting to be so typical of these huge disasters I think it's just another factor that, like it or not, has to be accounted for during planning.
It is only now that we're really getting a proper handle on what is going on, even then, an early admission of how serious this situation is or could become, would have potentially avoided the explosions that rocked the containment buildings of Fukushima Daiichi.
The risk of hydrogen explosion was known, but maybe the fact it didn't happen at Three Mile Island lead to some complacency? After all, TMI was the only comparable reactor that had had a serious cooling problem. Perhaps they relied overmuch on just that one example.
In the latest developments, the situation appears to be worsening. The highest levels of radiation in the ocean have been detected now, at over 4,000 times acceptable levels. There are still readings of I-131, which if containment hadn't been compromised, would have subsided now (5 half-lives should be enough for a near zero reading, but levels remain high).
Do they know what istopess are causing much of the seawater contamination? It's nothing good, of course, but if most of it is short-lived stuff it won't be as bad long term as if it were long half life isotopes spreading farther before decaying and hanging around longer. In some case a LOT longer.
There is also the suggestion of recriticality within Reactor 1, which could be leading to neutron flux, something that would seriously affect robots, to say nothing of humans assessing the state of the reactor.
It was my very limited understanding that in the case of criticality the heat generated usually (or at least typically) expands the fissioning material to the point things are no longer critical... but perhaps that is more a feature of criticality with small masses. After all, there is not much precedent for such a thing happening in a melted reactor core lacking controls.

I'm sure many new things are being learned.
Every fire releases more aerosolised nuclides, and with the emergency steam vents allowing traces to be detected in Scotland, accordingly to latest data, higher concentration vents or continued ones from uncontrolled vents, could produce higher contaminant levels in these clouds.
I viewed it as inevitable that at some point the airborne radiation would be carried to Europe, just as it has been to North America. So far the amounts reported have been minuscule and, aside from media hysteria, nothing to worry about. That's the good news. The bad news, of course, would be if it continues long enough or if the contamination spikes or we get some of the more toxic stuff traveling around the world.
Apologies if there are any typos, I'm doing this from my mobile. I'll post links to the sources I'm finding useful when I get home.
Your posts are quite clear and authoritative - do you have some sort of background or profession that gives you greater than average insight into this matter? Or are you "just" an extremely well-informed layperson who posts more coherently than the average person?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Pendleton
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2011-03-17 03:36pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Pendleton »

Broomstick wrote: Nations have a bad habit of refusing help, and if anything the more industrialized/developed nations are the worst offenders (aside from a few cases like Myanmar). I think it has something to do with not wanting to be perceived as weak, possibly also not wanting intrusion on bureaucratic territory, but it's getting to be so typical of these huge disasters I think it's just another factor that, like it or not, has to be accounted for during planning.
I think another good recent example, almost a year to the day, is the Macondo blowout diaster in the Gulf of Mexico last year. I recall the Dutch offering oil scooping equipped ships, but being declined on the offer.
The risk of hydrogen explosion was known, but maybe the fact it didn't happen at Three Mile Island lead to some complacency? After all, TMI was the only comparable reactor that had had a serious cooling problem. Perhaps they relied overmuch on just that one example.
It's hard to draw direct comparisons with any previous event, given TMI had a meltdown with corium remaining intact within the containment vessel for the most part, while Chernobyl involved a single reactor burn and explosion during fission, like Windscale, but on a far larger release thanks to the explosion and lack of containment partition. Fukushima is another scenario entirely. Unlike all the previous examples, the reactors would've survived with nary a scratch, had it not been for the coolant systems having their generators flooded, diesel tanks washed away and batteries having sub-par performance for the duration of the blackout (Daiini was able to get power from the grid, unlike Daiichi).

There are multiple reactors in critical condition with damage that we can't really see directly, only by proxy. If you look at the recent picture of the control room which the technicians have managed to get back into, you'll see most all of the instruments are dead or reading incorrectly. It is only in the last few days they've managed to get main lights working, even.

A lot of what has gone on could've been prevented. While the GE Mk. I reactor design has many flaws, the major problems were down to TEPCO's organisation, or lack of, along with them copying a design from the continental United States and placing it exactly as designed in a totally different environment. Simply relocating the diesel generators and having the far larger storage battery systems now used throughout most of the EU and US, would've saved the plant.
Do they know what istopess are causing much of the seawater contamination? It's nothing good, of course, but if most of it is short-lived stuff it won't be as bad long term as if it were long half life isotopes spreading farther before decaying and hanging around longer. In some case a LOT longer.
As far as I'm aware, the main contaminants are iodine and cæsium, with the former being a smoking gun for any potential reactor faults that could lead to further fissionable material being released. I have read of other trace radionuclides being released, but of far smaller quantities and posing no real risk (that comes with the caveat, that any heavy metal contamination can potentially be magnified as it travels up the trophic levels of the marine food chain towards man).
It was my very limited understanding that in the case of criticality the heat generated usually (or at least typically) expands the fissioning material to the point things are no longer critical... but perhaps that is more a feature of criticality with small masses. After all, there is not much precedent for such a thing happening in a melted reactor core lacking controls.

I'm sure many new things are being learned.
This is likely sub-criticality as I mentioned some pages back. It's not technically full blown out-of-control fission, but it does produce neutrons to an extent that it would pose a danger, and can transmute some elements within the core which could leak out, either in coolant or as gas. It does not, however, lead to a steady state of fission which prolongs a reaction. Another fear is that the dislodged fuel in Reactor 4's spent fuel pool could have shifted from the quake and moved into the sub-optimal configuration that is avoided when the rods are loaded into the pool, so as to avoid any criticality accidents. Reactor 4 is the one which had a hot load moved into the pool prior to the tsunami.
I viewed it as inevitable that at some point the airborne radiation would be carried to Europe, just as it has been to North America. So far the amounts reported have been minuscule and, aside from media hysteria, nothing to worry about. That's the good news. The bad news, of course, would be if it continues long enough or if the contamination spikes or we get some of the more toxic stuff traveling around the world.
Right now, the bigger problem is media coverage, since I have seen the CNN show (I forget the presenter's name) with some woman trying to tell a weatherman on the show that the cloud poses a significant risk to public health on the western US coast. The weatherman, at least I think he was one, was quite adamant that this was not the case, which concurs with all assessments so far. Even with the clouds produced equalling Chernobyl's by measure of activities, the Japanese are fortunate that the westerly wind has kept it from the mainland and allowed it to disperse harmlessly over the Pacific before hitting land again. Similar feats of luck happened in the Ukraine, where a particularly potent cloud from the erupting reactor was blown to a higher level and dissipated harmlessly, rather than hitting Kiev and causing potentially many deaths within a short time.
Your posts are quite clear and authoritative - do you have some sort of background or profession that gives you greater than average insight into this matter? Or are you "just" an extremely well-informed layperson who posts more coherently than the average person?
I'm just a chemist by profession. I'll make the disclaimer now that I'm not pro- or anti-nuclear power, simply pro-information.
Last edited by Thanas on 2011-04-01 12:47am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Redacted personal information upon request.
Pendleton
Padawan Learner
Posts: 163
Joined: 2011-03-17 03:36pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Pendleton »

Just as readings for ground water around Reactor No. 1 reach over 10,000 times upper limit, I find this little nugget.

I'm sorry, but I have lost even more respect for TEPCO and their ability to handle this situation. It's been 20 days now, and they're pulling this shit?

But then I shouldn't be too surprised. If it wasn't for Clinton practically telling them what to do, they'd still be pouring sea water on those reactor piles.
aieeegrunt
Jedi Knight
Posts: 512
Joined: 2009-12-23 10:14pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by aieeegrunt »

Given the way private industry works, I'd be unsurprised if the shortage was deliberate. Then later when people start dropping of cancer they'll take the line of "you have no proof you were exposed to dangerous levels of radiation".
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Thanas »

So the IAEA advises the Japanese government to evacuate more and the Japanese Government responds with "thanks, but no thanks." Yeah, that is going to help with public trust...
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28812
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Earthquake off Japan

Post by Broomstick »

aieeegrunt wrote:Given the way private industry works, I'd be unsurprised if the shortage was deliberate. Then later when people start dropping of cancer they'll take the line of "you have no proof you were exposed to dangerous levels of radiation".
Allegedly, most of the dosimeters on site at the plant were damaged or lost during the tsunami. It is certainly possible. I would be interested to know if that is the truth or not. If so, then their absence during the clean up is not malice or failure to supply them so much as an unanticipated level of disaster.

Of course, once that fact was known - insufficient dosimeters at a nuclear plant having a serious emergency - there should have been some priority given to flying more of them to the site. That I would have to hold TEPCO and/or the Japanese government culpable for.

On a slightly different note, NOVA aired a documentary on March 30 about the quake, tsunami, and the beginning of the aftermath. Less nuclear, more quake and water than much of what has been heard. It explains why and how, shows visually the 500+ aftershocks that hit during the week after the big quake, and discusses some of the lessons already learned and some of the ramifications.

There is some video that is familiar, but some that is not and it can be enlightening. People caught liquefaction occurring in action, filmed cracks in the ground opening up, then expanding and contracting. There was footage of the Hawaiian tsunami which, although no life was lost, still caused severe property damage and dragged not only vehicles but homes and buildings out to sea - no lives were lost because the people were warned and had time to evacuate, but if they hadn't it, too, would have been tragic. They had film from a village in the mountains where the tsunami traveled up a river and left a salt lake behind. It also explained that some of the seawalls meant to stop a tsunami were inadequate because in some regions the coastline had dropped a meter, leaving the walls too low to stop the water. It also explains why there are cars on the roofs of buildings that are significantly higher than the estimated height of the tsunami hitting the nearby coast.

I found it interesting and, given the short time period in which they completed it, well done for covering a disaster and immediate aftermath.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Post Reply