European refugee crisis thread

[Broomstick]

The head of Jewish councils in Germany has just come out and said Germany should limit the influx of refugees.

Confirming once more their moral bankruptcy.

Depends on the context, doesn't it?

If they doing that because of religious objections to Muslims that's one thing. If they're saying it because of genuine concerns as to feed and house so many new people that's another.

Since I don't have the actual article or whatever you're looking at it's sort of hard for me to know which is their position.

[Thanas]

It was on the news, so no article. They are claiming that since many muslims hate Jews (true) their numbers need to be limited to limit dangers to Jewish citizens. Their concerns are definitely legitimate.

But I don't think they have a leg to stand on since the vast majority of current German news came here as refugees since the fall of the Soviet Union and they are openly partisan towards Israel and Israel's policies towards Palestinians. So in their eyes it is totally ok to accept Jewish refugees (who might hate muslims), but not muslim refugees (who might hate jews).

[Broomstick]

Ah, I see.

We certainly have Muslim-hating Jews here, as well as German-hating Jews still holding WWII against a nation that has changed since that time, but for the most part the Jews here are pro-immigration. The Anti-Defamation League (very much a Jewish organization) has spoken out in favor of the US accepting more Syrian (and other) refugees as well as opposing anti-Muslim and anti-Arab organizations. They've also spoken in opposition to Israeli extremists as well as Arab and Muslim sorts. Basically, they're opposed to anti-antisemitism whether it comes from non-Semites or fellow Semites as well as opposed to bigotry in general.

Then again, it sounds like the US Jews are more diverse than those currently in Germany, and distance from something can make one have a different opinion that those in the middle of it. There is even a small but growing segment of US Jews who are openly critical of the current Israeli government, including at least one synagogue of Jewish families who are anti-current-Israeli policies, formed in part for them to have a community where they can be open about their views without every conversation turning into an argument.

Also, in the US it is the norm for Jews and Muslims to co-exist. They don't always like each other, but attacking each other is rare. There's probably more fear of white supremacists/idiot "Christians" on the part of those two groups than fear of each other in the US. Since Muslims are still rare in most areas those who live outside Muslim-containing communities are also heavily dependent on the Kosher-regulating Jewish organizations to maintain a hallal diet - you're less inclined to attack the local Jewish butcher if he's the only local source of meat your god approves of.

[Elheru Aran]

IMO, based upon media for the most part and a basic knowledge of popular-culture tropes (there's a lot of 'Jewish' characters on TV for some reason), I *think* I'm fairly safe in assuming that most Jews, fundamentalist groups such as Hasidi and the like aside, are fairly liberal compared to their European or Israeli counterparts. The general trend in American Judaism seems to be 'live and let live'. Lip service is paid to the notion of Israel, but most of them are all too happy to stay here.

[Broomstick]

As my Jewish relatives once put it to me, to them America IS the "promised land". They're free to live as they want and do as they want, there is little overt discrimination, and the government will even protect them from and prosecute the more extreme anti-Jewish types. They went from government-sanctioned oppression to government-sanctioned tolerance. What's not to like?

On top of that, those that stayed in Europe were wiped out by 1944, the ones in the US were safe.

(The also had issues theologically with Israel, believing it should have been founded by the Messiah and not by the actions of man, so they basically questioned its legitimacy from the get-go. Not that that stopped some of them from visiting but so far as I know none of them have expressed any sort of desire to move there.)

With all that, sure, putting up with neighbors you're not fond of is small potatoes. As mom always said, you don't have to like the neighbors, you have to just tolerate them if you want them to do the same for you.

I suspect many other sorts, such as Muslims, wind up doing the same in the US. The system isn't perfect but there's some attempt to make those cultural memes more than just lip service.

Oh, and the reason there's a fair number of Jewish characters in US TV shows is that Jews have been heavily involved in entertainment for well over a century in the US, at all levels. Some people see that as sinister, but it's mostly just a contingency of history. They were already in theater and vaudeville so moving over the movies and then TV wasn't a big jump. You tend to hire the people you already know somewhat, and yes there was a "an old Jewish boy" network at times. Well, there are also industries dominated by other ethnic groups, too, for similar reasons - Irish cops and politicians, Polish and Italian in construction and city services, German farmers, Indians (from India) in medicine, and so on.

Black people have been in entertainment (especially music) for a long time, too, in the US although it's only been since the 1970's that they were able to gain much control in the related industries.

My experience has been that Muslims gravitate towards small business (restaurants, grocers, dry cleaners, and so forth), accounting/bookkeeping/lower level finance industry, some types of tech industries, and medicine but I'm not going to argue that the people I've encountered are a representative sample, they're just the people I've happened to meet.

I find current scaremongering in the US both nauseating and frighting. I'd like to see the US take in a reasonable share of the humanitarian crisis going on in the Middle East and Europe, especially as we had a part in creating the mess whether we intended to do so or not, but the bigots are trying to slam closed the gates, often for political gain.

[Eleas]

And there went all pretenses of Sweden and high moral ground, if by "high" you mean "any semblance of."

The changes announced on Tuesday were particularly difficult for the Social Democrats’ junior coalition partner, the Green party, seen as the most refugee-friendly of Sweden’s main political parties. The Greens’ deputy prime minister, Åsa Romson, broke into tears as she announced the measures.

“This is a terrible decision,” she said later, admitting that the proposals would make life even more precarious for refugees. But quitting the government would have made a bad situation even worse, she added.

The leader of Sweden’s centre-right bloc, Anna Kinberg Batra, welcomed the measures but said they were not enough, and that asylum policy needed to be tightened even further. “Sweden needs to act now to bring order to an untenable situation,” she said.

The far-right Sweden Democrats claimed the government was doing too little too late to implement the party’s demands. However, a UN official in Stockholm, who asked not to be named, commented: “The last bastion of humanitarianism has fallen.”

As a writer friend of mine put it: "Enraging. Embarrassing. Sad. Cowardly. While the world watches, we sink to the occasion." This week, I am ashamed of my nation.

[cosmicalstorm]

Swedens reckless open borders politics is ended.
The shockwaves will close all euro borders to refugees once the others realize there will be no more playing "pass them to Sweden".

Expect forcible deportations on a large scale from Sweden soon, this decision is the start of a race to the bottom of harsh migratio laws.

(Corrected spelling, Should add there might be "move back home bribes" and not outright deportations, but I think there will be some very hars measures soon. Also reelection is very possible now.)

[Eleas]

Swedens reckless open borders politics is ended.

We are signatories to the EHCR, and thus bound to accept refugees in ways the Swedish state now refuses to entertain. A state that, lest we forget, profits handsomely from many factors that have and continue to significantly contribute to their plight.

You may think honoring those binding oaths is somehow "reckless," and that we have no obligation to deal with the fallout of our own messes. On that, we must agree to disagree.

[cosmicalstorm]

The Swedish government have announced they are considering a closure of the Oresunds-bridge.

It's a very dramatic move, a real panic decision imo. It's a good example of how crazy our migration policy has become.
For many years people with the kind of utopian ideals that Eleas have, have been in charge, this is the end result.

If they close the bridge I'm not sure how bad the consequences will be for Sweden. But they will be Bad.
Sweden is in the middle of a huge debt/housing bubble that could end any day.

[Eleas]

For many years people with the kind of utopian ideals that Eleas have, have been in charge, this is the end result.

Go fuck yourself, you spineless far-right mouthpiece. This wouldn't have happened if we hadn't gutted the welfare state, a point repeatedly stated and which you ignored, just like you ignored the fact that binding treaties aren't bloody well optional.

This is, of course, no official announcement at all and was merely part of a host of (short term) suggestions. But given that cosmicalstorm habitually engages in much worse distortions, this one isn't all that noteworthy.

Infrastrukturminister Anna Johansson (S) säger till DN att möjligheten stänga bron endast ska användas i nödfall.

– Tanken är att om det uppstår en akut situation så ska regeringen ha möjligheten att fatta ett sådant beslut. I dag finns ingen laglig möjlighet att göra det, säger hon.

Anna Johansson säger att regeringen inte har några planer på att stänga bron i nuläget.

– I dagsläget ser vi inte en sådan akut situation. Det är inget vi planerar för, det vore en väldigt dramatisk åtgärd. Vi hoppas att det här lagutrymmet inte ska behöva användas, säger hon.

[Eleas]

Oh, that quote should be translated. Since no sane person would trust cosmicalstorm with that, I suppose I should do it myself. It's from an article in DN, Dagens Nyheter, one of the mainstream Swedish papers. The emphases are my own.

Minister of Infrastructure Anna Johansson (S) tells DN that the ability to close the bridge is only to be used as an emergency measure.

- The idea is that if there is an emergency, the government will have the ability to make such a decision. There is no legal option of doing so today, she says.

Anna Johansson says that the government has no plans of shutting the bridge to date.

- We see no such emergency situation at this time. It's nothing we plan for, it would be quite a dramatic measure. We hope that this legal space doesn't need to be used, she says.

So once again, cruel reality gainsays cosmicalstorm, to the surprise of no-one.

[cosmicalstorm]

Yeah of course they just proposed it and didn't really mean it.

Three months ago they said Sweden would always have open borders and anything else was nazism. They are in panic mode right now, saying one thing one day, backing down on it the next and saying something even weirder the third day.

Btw: I really hope they don't close it and this was all a big misunderstanding because it would be a disaster. They need to implement effective border controls soon.

Here is the article from another big, mainstream newspaper in Sweden translated to English.

Government ready to close the Öresund Bridge
Updated 2015-12-03 12:22. Published 2015-12-03 11:45

Photo: TT

The new identity checks on buses and trains has received massive criticism. But the government is ready to go one step further and now opens to fully close the Öresund Bridge. It is clear from a draft proposal that Di taken part of.
Di reported on Wednesday on the massive criticism concerned companies and trade associations directed against the new identity controls that the government wants to impose on buses and trains at the Öresund Bridge.

Advertisement:
SJ threatened in a statement to the Industry Ministry to stop all rail traffic to and from Denmark where controls are introduced. At the same time warns Skånetrafiken for delays of up to an hour per trip between Copenhagen and Malmö.


Despite the harsh criticism, the government is ready to take further steps to reduce the refugee pressure on Sweden. In a draft proposal the Government notes that the number of asylum seekers has declined slightly since internal border controls were introduced, but it is not enough.

"The number of asylum applications continues to be at a level that allows the situation is such that from a broad perspective still is a serious threat to public order and internal security in Sweden," it says.


The government's new bill, which will apply for three years, not only contains the ID checks on buses, trains and ferries. The government would also have the opportunity to close roads and bridges. Draft Council on Legislation specifically points out the Öresund Bridge.

"Oresund Bridge is one of Sweden's most important and busiest relations with another country, Denmark. A temporary closure of the bridge can provide an additional measure to reduce the risk to public order or internal security affected as a result of the large influx of asylum seekers, "it says.

The former leader of the Danish People's Party, Pia Kjærsgaard, received harsh criticism from the Swedish side when she several years ago attacked the Swedish refugee policy and spoke about putting a flap in the Oresund Bridge.

But now it can then become the Swedish government - Prime Minister Stephen Löfven in the lead - that stops traffic on the bridge. And this is with reference to that particular refugee situation.

"It is not appropriate at present, but this bill, if passed, would give the government an opportunity to in an emergency to close the bridge without having to deal with it in parliament because it would probably take too long", says Minister Anna Johansson's press secretary Elin Tibell.

The last seven days have almost 5,700 people applied for asylum in Sweden. It is according to the government difficult to assess the levels will be affected by the new identity controls.

The Government refers to the Immigration Service, and writes that about 20 percent of the asylum seekers present identity papers at the time of application. The proportion is far higher later in the trial process.

"How many of these are lacking, however, secure data which makes it difficult to assess how many of the asylum seekers who have access to identity documents," reads the draft to the Council on Legislation.

It is clear that the new rules that the government wants to push through will lead to fewer people have the opportunity to seek asylum in Sweden.

"The number of asylum seekers unaccompanied children, especially from Afghanistan, could be expected to reduce more than others as this group generally do not show identity documents (about 1 per cent at the time of application)," the government wrote.

Di has previously reported on the government's ambition to be next week submit a bill on ID-checks in parliament.

http://www.di.se/artiklar/2015/12/3/reg ... sundsbron/

[cosmicalstorm]

The cost to erect tent camps is going to be very big. 500 million kronor is about 50 million dollars. Note that this is for 3000 accomodation places, that is roughly the number of daily arrivals to Sweden.
The whole system is collapsing very fast. I'm really worried about the future for Sweden right now.

Startpage / Latest news / TT / Domestic 2015-12-03
Tent camps for hundreds of millions
REFUGEE CRISIS. The next tent camps for asylum seekers in Sweden will be very expensive. Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency (MSB) has found four places where it is possible to establish camps. Altogether it's about 3000 accommodation places.
- We have estimated the total cost of these four places for about 500 million to bring about these sites, says Svante Werger, communications director at the MSB, to Dagens Industri.
He says it's the ground work which accounts for the major costs.
TT

http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenytt/t ... 1880966.ab

[Eleas]

No, you dishonest piece of shit. You said that they "announced they are considering a closure of the Oresunds-bridge." When what they announced was a petition to open up the legal possibility of closing the Öresund bridge temporarily in future crises. And then only for car traffic.

Your reading of this was your usual histrionics, i.e. at odds with reality. To see someone habitually make such blatant and reality-defying leaps due to his own unchecked paranoia then turn around to call other people's views "utopian" is more than a little funny.

[cosmicalstorm]

Funny semantics Eleas.

They are waiting for other Euro countries to do the dirty work of border closure, this might have been a not so subtle signal to Denmark to make them close their border.

But time is running out, I would not be so surprised if the bridge is closed, it's the only remaining options.

But it would be better if they could do something else.

[Eleas]

Yes, it's semantics. Actual semantics. Which means "the study of how words differ." Ineptly, you seem to want to say that I'm quibbling about words that mean the same, but that's manifestly untrue: words have meaning. Yours massively distort the actual position of people, always in a full-on shit-fit that happens to echo right-wing talking points.

Your words of what was said differ from what was actually said. Constantly, flagrantly, and significantly. Despite you being made aware of this, you don't care to change. That is why you are called dishonest.

[cosmicalstorm]

So they just happened to blurb about wanting to panic shut the Öresunds-bridge at a time of great emergency, while basically presenting a plan for how to deal with just such an emergency. One such migration related emergency that is taking place in Sweden and at the Öresundsbridge right now.

But hey, wait a second, they were totally not talking about closing the bridge right now!

As Eleas can explain, our dear leaders are so thoughtful.
They just wanna plan for the distant future you know...
Shutting the bridge to stop the migration is totally not something they are thinking about doing right now, you know.

Did I get that right?
You want me to buy some land on the moon while you are at it?

What really happened:

So they sent a test balloon saying the bridge might be closed.
The idea is obviously that Denmark and others Euro countries will panic at the thought and will close their borders in order not to be stuck with refugees going to Sweldorados promised land.

If other countries closed their borders that would save the face of Swedens shamed government.

They have painted themselves into the deepest corner, now they want mommy to come and clean up their stinking festering migration mess.

But I don't think Denmark is in a mood to save Sweden.

Swedens politicians and media have accused the Danes of being cruel Nazis over and over again in the past few years, when they implemented exactly the same policy that is now being implemented in Sweden at break neck speed.

The Danish are smiling at the pitiful mess that is Swedish migration politics today.
Today Denmark has replied that they are monitoring the situation so the ball is back with Sweden.
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/danma ... nskontroll

That means more panic measures Made in Sweden very soon.

[Broomstick]

How about you just start watching a soap opera or two to get your daily dose of drama and overwrought performances?

[Ziggy Stardust]

So they just happened to blurb about wanting to panic shut the Öresunds-bridge at a time of great emergency, while basically presenting a plan for how to deal with just such an emergency. One such migration related emergency that is taking place in Sweden and at the Öresundsbridge right now.

But hey, wait a second, they were totally not talking about closing the bridge right now!

Even besides the fact that you have 0 evidence to support your feverish ramblings, why the fuck are you so upset about the fact that some individuals in the government are interested in creating contingency plans for an emergency? Isn't this exactly what you should be wanting them to do: preparing themselves so that if the worst case scenario arises they actually have a plan for how to mitigate the damage and deal with it?

[Eleas]

So, in other words, cosmicalstorm still has zero proof of his bizarre theories, but ... black helicopters! Fluoridation! It's all connected, man!

While cosmicalstorm's descent into full-blown lunacy is entertaining to watch, his central premise is an ill-defined economical argument: Sweden "has no resources" to handle such a thing. An idea not shared by the census bureau.

Again, choice excerpts which (to make clear contrast against cosmicalstorm's posts) actually support my point:

Some might even claim I read my statistics wrong, knowingly or out of ignorance. Surely our country's in a crisis? Those words are repeated every day in refugee Sweden.

This week, the Census Bureau presented the national accounts for the third quarter. There were no huge headlines around their figures, either in Dagens Nyheter or Svenska Dagbladet.

Which there should have been. Actually, Swedish economy shows itself from its strongest side right now. Compared to the third quarter 2014 BNP rose by 3.9 percent, a number that exceeded the expectations of pundits. These are historically high numbers. National Armageddon is currently not in sight.

It was as if debaters' own personal impression of reality could not stand to be confronted with the dry facts of the Census bureau. When you've decided there's a crisis, a crisis there is.

We're currently growing quickly and are, as a country, richer than ever. Our increase in prosperity the last decades exceeds all expectation. The national debt is low, internationally speaking.

There are, by any reasonable measure, resources enough to handle even large challenges to society.

I now eagerly await cosmicalstorm's "rebuttal," which (judging by his previous conduct) will probably involve grassy knolls, precious bodily fluids, and a complete refusal to actually meet the points raised.

[cosmicalstorm]

The Swedish goverment have decided to pull back the decision to close the bridge today facing massive criticism. But they also warn it may be coming back. I wonder why they changed their mind when they were not even supposed to close it
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/moder ... kontroller


You forgot to add that Peter Wolodarski is a famous pro-immigration populist, here is an article by some people who are not so impressed.
Sweden is actually in huge debt but he only looks at the national debt, not that of the households. Also he seems to assume that the effects will be felt acutely, but most of the nasty economic consequences will be felt in the coming years.

Debate:
The growth of prosperity threatened

Updated 2015-11-16 09:35. Published 2015-11-15 21:03

Last week, the government presented a supplementary budget in which nearly 10 billion extra was allocated to the cost of the refugee crisis. Sweden is in a process where it is difficult to argue that there is someone who can foresee the impact on public finances, writes Swedish Enterprise Ann Öberg and Jonas Frycklund.

The recent refugee crisis has dramatically changed the input values ​​for the Swedish economy. On the basis of data from the Swedish Migration Board, Statistics Sweden has updated the ordinary population forecast. The population is projected to rise sharply, and the annual growth rate will gradually rise in 2019 reaching up to 2.3 percent. It is a rate of increase that Sweden has never before had since population statistics began to be 1750th

This will obviously impact on the economy. The difference between the two measures of GDP growth and GDP per capita growth will accelerate. The traditional growth gauge will show good growth in the coming years, but it is rather a source of confusion than anything to be happy about.

"Asylum seekers are not counted in the population until they have received a residence permit."

READ MORE: Debate: Finance crisis not by tax increases

The real prosperity for individuals pointing namely in a very different and more negative direction. Next year we expect that GDP per capita will rise by only 1.4 percent. It is below the historical average of 1.8 percent and well below what it was before the financial crisis, when the growth rate average stood at 2.6 percent.

But actually it is even worse. Asylum seekers are not counted in the population until they have received a residence permit. With the current long waiting time population statistics with reality. It will take time for the increased migration have full effect on GDP per capita.

READ MORE: Debate: Remove border controls

Swedish Enterprise has made a projection of development up to 2019. The growth rate in per capita GDP expected to gradually deteriorates and falls to the low 0.7 per cent in 2019. A worrying weak prosperity.

One objection to using GDP per capita would be a supplement of poor people does not necessarily affect the existing (richer) population. But it is a theoretical argument. Sweden is a country with high distribution policy goals.

It is unrealistic to believe that this political condition would change only marginally in the coming years. All indications are that a significant redistribution will occur, which means that even the existing population affected by weak GDP per capita growth.

To this should be added a tendency to lower cost of government finances. Already in connection with the autumn budget could be established to unplanned cost increases took place in a number of transfer systems. According to the Social Insurance Agency's latest forecast, for example, increases the costs of sickness benefits and rehabilitation compensation of SEK 32 billion in 2014 to 49 billion in 2019, an increase of 50 percent over five years.

This crisis means that the cost of migration and integration also takes off. Immigration Service recently requested an additional 29 billion for 2016, a sum comparable to the entire Swedish aid of 32 billion. For 2017 requests to 41 billion extra, which represents the cost of the whole of the Swedish justice system including police and courts.

Migration Board's forecast processed now by other relevant authorities. It will lead to demands for more money to the Employment Service, more money to the Social Insurance Agency, more money to the Police Authority, as well as more money to local governments.

Sweden is in a process where it is difficult to argue that there is someone who can foresee the impact on public finances.

In a serious situation requires substantial reform. Both the labor and housing markets need to be liberalized and modernized in order to swallow the large increase in population. Both of these markets have been set on the exception when other parts of the economy has been reformed. Now is time to grasp the things that had previously been seen as politically difficult.

At the same time need to charge the crisis in the public sector managed. In the short term it is inevitable that the deficit will increase. But the focus should primarily be to achieve efficiencies, savings and have a better labor market integration. Tax increases are harmful, then they dampen growth. But the deficit are also problematic because they tend to lead to future tax increases.

Even today takes households and businesses with the threat of future tax increases in their calculations. Already today therefore affected consumption and investment adversely.

Swedish Enterprise's goal is for Sweden to advance in the OECD prosperity league. The last decades of reforms have meant that we have advanced from 13th to 8th place. The OECD based its calculations right on GDP per capita. The risk is therefore obvious that we are once again losing ground against comparable countries. The government needs to regain control of the emergency situation and take on an ambitious agenda consisting of structurally appropriate reforms.

Ann Oberg, chief economist, Confederation of Swedish Enterprise
Jonas Frycklund, economist, Confederation of Swedish Enterprise

http://www.di.se/artiklar/2015/11/15/de ... gen-hotas/

Anyway, things are moving very fast. Before the next summers the borders will be closed and shut no matter what you think.
When the international borrowers realize how far out of control Swedens situation is they will hike the rates and our huge housing bubble will come crashing down.
If the goverment falls down and there is a re-election the anti immigration party will make a landslide victory and be impossible to ignore. They intend to scrap most of the benefits for the immigrants who currently live of them.

I think Sweden will look a lot like Argentina.

What do you think will happen to Sweden Eleas, give me a rough outline of how the next year will work out so I can see your world model.

[Eleas]

And another hearty helping of conspiracy bullshit and non-answers. I swear, this is like arguing with a spam bot.

Since the article still doesn't say anything about a "decision to close the bridge", that kinda makes you a fucking liar once more. Had the idea that they "changed their mind" been anything more than a mendacious invention, you would be able to quote something to that effect in the article you linked to. You can't.

You forgot to add that Peter Wolodarski is a famous pro-immigration populist,

I don't think I can put this nicely, so I'll just say it: the personal opinions of a truth-challenged xenophobic scumbag do not, in fact, a rebuttal make. Nor does an article that shows that wow, immigration isn't necessarily free, rebut Wolodarskis points, which we both know you barely even glanced at in the first place.

We need to rebuild the welfare state. For that, we need a system that works to go with our currently record-level profits. Such a system can actually be created; we did it before, back when we started at the level of bloody Gambia. We can handle immigration on a large scale. We did it before. We can (re)build a Sweden that serves the people and that doesn't funnel all the money to the top and out the door; we did it before.

On the other hand, we can also deny entrance to persecuted groups and watch them die, and only let in the occasional immigrant even though so many of them have education and could prove an asset. We did that, too, during the war. My grandfather, Frederik Paulsen, was one of the lucky who made it here. Like the people you want to keep out, he, too, was just a filthy foreigner with some education... who managed to jumpstart the Swedish fucking biotech business which is now one of our larger exports. Wow, look at those stinking immigrants ruining everything for the rest of us by making up large parts of our industry.

If not for immigration, my family would not have been here, and my grandfather would not have paid probably a billion or so in taxes. Not, of course, that he was alone on that score. No, he was only ever a footnote in the history of Jews, Poles, Turks and all the others who came and contributed while feckless entitled shitbirds derided them for it. So if you think you're somehow unique, you're really not.

In conclusion, I could talk a lot more about your various misconceptions, but that would require me to overlook the fact that you appear to lie compulsively. And that's where I draw the line in any conversation.

So to make the conclusion even terser: go fuck yourself, you lying, racist, scumbag piece-of-shit.

[fgalkin]

It was on the news, so no article. They are claiming that since many muslims hate Jews (true) their numbers need to be limited to limit dangers to Jewish citizens. Their concerns are definitely legitimate.

But I don't think they have a leg to stand on since the vast majority of current German news came here as refugees since the fall of the Soviet Union and they are openly partisan towards Israel and Israel's policies towards Palestinians. So in their eyes it is totally ok to accept Jewish refugees (who might hate muslims), but not muslim refugees (who might hate jews).

On the other hand, how many hate crimes were committed by Jews against Muslims in Germany and how does it compare to the inverse?

I know that in France, for example, Jews constitute something like half a percent of the population, but are targets in almost 50% of hate crimes, many of which committed by Muslims.

I'm not saying that it justifies the treatment of the refugees (nothing really justifies keeping them out), but it's not a frivolous or baseless concern.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[salm]

On the other hand, how many hate crimes were committed by Jews against Muslims in Germany and how does it compare to the inverse?

I know that in France, for example, Jews constitute something like half a percent of the population, but are targets in almost 50% of hate crimes, many of which committed by Muslims.

I'm not saying that it justifies the treatment of the refugees (nothing really justifies keeping them out), but it's not a frivolous or baseless concern.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The logic behind it is faulty. Just because a certain percentage of a group is bad doesn´t mean we should base our treatment of the individuals in this group on it.
Or else we should treat all men badly because most hate crimes are committed by men.
And we should also treat all women badly because I´m sure we can find at least one category of crime that is mainly committed by women.

[cosmicalstorm]

Looks like we will finally leave the crazy Schengen agreement behind. Much like the Euro it has been and will continue to be a disaster for a long time to come. This won't solve Swedens problem of mass-immigration but it's a first step on the way.

Denmark will introduce border controls with Germany on 4 January, as soon as Sweden formally introduces ID checks on the Øresund bridge, connecting Denmark and Sweden, Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen said on Monday (14 December).

In order to stem the flow of asylum seekers, Sweden introduced border controls on the Øresund bridge in November. Starting next year, the Scandinavian country wants to take things a step further by introducing ID checks, and sending those who are undocumented back to Denmark.

Denmark's Minister for Migration, Inger Støjberg, estimates that eight out of ten asylum seekers who want to go to Sweden would then have to stay on Danish soil. Rasmussen is therefore considering introducing border controls at the Danish-German border, in order to discourage asylum seekers from travelling to Denmark in the first place.

Over the past months, border controls have been introduced in all of Denmark's neighbours: Norway, Sweden and Germany.

>>Read: Sweden checks trains for migrants at its border with Denmark

Internal border controls are not allowed under the EU's Schengen rules, but many member states have recently introduced the measure temporarily, referring to a special emergency situation due to the refugee crisis.

At a press conference, the Danish prime minister said Denmark "now has to deal with this unfortunate situation which Sweden has brought us".

"This is a very sad situation. The Swedes have decided to introduce ID checks on top of the border controls they have already put in place. There is a reason to be unhappy about this," he said.

Apart from likely increasing the number of asylum seekers in Denmark, ID controls on the Swedish side of the Øresund bridge will also damage the cooperation which the two neighbours have built up in the 'Øresund region' which includes Denmark's capital, Copenhagen, and the third biggest city in Sweden, Malmö, according to Rasmussen.

"We have spent billions to build up the infrastructure of the Øresund region and branded Copenhagen and Malmö as a coherent city area. By introducing the ID checks, the Swedes are now dividing this region up in two halfs again," Rasmussen added.

Around 30,000 people cross the Øresund bridge on a daily basis. As the new border control measures will increase the time of crossing the bridge, there is a risk, according to Rasmussen, that the traffic system will collapse.

Sweden made a U-turn on its foreign policies in November, when the country said it would now only grant temporary residence permits for asylum seekers and only live up to the minimum standards under international and EU laws when it comes to dealing with refugees.

>>Read: Poll: Swedish support for refugees falls

The change of policy came after the Swedish Migration Agency estimated that Sweden will receive almost 200,000 asylum seekers in 2015, making the country the most preferred destination in the EU per capita.

Sweden's change in policy has led 395 asylum seekers to withdraw their application in October, a figure which rose to 627 in November.

Recent data from the UN Refugee Agency suggests that 50% of Syrian refugees who arrive in Greece say they would prefer going to Germany as their most preferred destination. The second-highest number (13%) wanted to go to Sweden, followed by Denmark (5%).

In Denmark, Norway and Finland, where the governments are in favour of strict migration rules, Sweden is blamed for having attracted refugees to the Nordic region as a whole. The region now accepts the highest number of asylum seekers in the EU.

In Sweden, however, the government says EU countries have largely refused to take their responsibility in the refugee crisis, including Denmark.
Background

The European Union has agreed on a plan, resisted by Hungary and several other ex-Communist members of the bloc, to share out 120,000 refugees among its members, a small proportion of the hundred thousands of refugees the International Organization for Migration (IOM) estimates will reach Europe's borders from the Middle East, Africa and Asia this year.

The EU is also courting Turkey with the promise of money, visa-free travel, and new accession talks if Ankara tries to stem the flow of refugees across its territory.
Timeline

4 January 2016: Sweden to introduce ID checks

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/justic ... ols-320437



The next year will be the final year of the Swedish welfare state, schools, hospitals, police are all set to collapse at free fall speed:

That it is now in a panic trying to set things when the damage is already done, gives little comfort. And we also have an unmanageably large volume of arrivals to handle, and it continues to arrive thousands of new ones every day (just because you do not hit new records, it does not mean that it has become quiet). These poor people have been duped to come here by the Swedish (and German) politicians. They will probably cry most in 2016, when they discover that Sweden is not the Utopian that its politicians have given the impression. What happens when those who live in tents understand that they will be accommodated in tents for years?

Nothing in Sweden is working as it should. The two sills, unions have raised so that very few come over them. The housing market is totally broken regulated for environmental reasons and tenant association perverted fairness and therefore build too little. The welfare system gives everyone in the country entitled to benefits even if one is not helped at all. The battle for these benefits will harden between vulnerable groups and the elderly and the sick will draw the short straw.

http://erixon.com/blogg/2015/12/fler-an ... rata-2016/

The anti-immigrtion party Sweden Democrats founded by nazis in the 90's is now the largest or the second largest party in several polls, here is one from the norweigan Sentio:

Moderaterna 17,8 (19,3)
Liberalerna 5,3 (5,2)
Centerpartiet 7,3 (7,4)
Kristdemokraterna 3,0 (2,9)

Socialdemokraterna 23,5 (22,0)
Vänsterpartiet 6,9 (6,5)
Miljöpartiet 5,6 (5,5)

Sverigedemokraterna 26,6 (26,8)

Feministiskt Initiativ 1,7 (2,5)
Piratpartiet 0,7 (1,2)

One from Inizio, three largest parties:

SD 26%

S 24%

M 20%

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article21952120.ab

The conspiracy theory that Eleas raised earlier in this thread hinting that their polling numbers are the result of fraud must be considered very implausible in the light of this.