Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[Netko]

Yes, they would. And then Russia would get a nice casus belli based on the fact that they killed Russian citizens, and could legitimately invade. Funny how that's exactly what happened.

The point you're missing is that even if Georgia was fully within its rights, that doesn't mean the action should be pursued and that nobody has a right to oppose it. Hell, legally speaking, Serbia still has a legitimate casus belli against Kosovo (it hasn't got UN recognition and as such is still technically a break-away province), yet I wonder how the west would side and react if they started shelling it, killing some western troops in the process. I'm guessing it won't consider it an expression of Serbia's legal rights to remove foreign invaders.

[K. A. Pital]

Yes, they would. And then Russia would get a nice casus belli based on the fact that they killed Russian citizens, and could legitimately invade. Funny how that's exactly what happened.

Exactly.

The point is that both parties have legitimate (more or less) excuses for action, but starting a fullscale conflict which inevitably will bring Russia to war with you is... well, stupid to say the least.

[RogueIce]

Yes, they would. And then Russia would get a nice casus belli based on the fact that they killed Russian citizens, and could legitimately invade. Funny how that's exactly what happened.

Exactly.

The point is that both parties have legitimate (more or less) excuses for action, but starting a fullscale conflict which inevitably will bring Russia to war with you is... well, stupid to say the least.

Which brings me to a question I had earlier.

What if, instead of shelling, Georgia had just driven some trucks into South Ossetia, told everyone with Russian citizenship they were there illegally, throw their belongings on the back of the truck, and drive them all to the Russian border and say "Have fun in your new home!"

That would have been technically legitimate, right? And wouldn't the Russian peacekeepers have to help them clearing out illegals, at least insofar as preventing seperatists from shooting at the Georgian troops?

[Beowulf]

Yes, they would. And then Russia would get a nice casus belli based on the fact that they killed Russian citizens, and could legitimately invade. Funny how that's exactly what happened.

Exactly.

The point is that both parties have legitimate (more or less) excuses for action, but starting a fullscale conflict which inevitably will bring Russia to war with you is... well, stupid to say the least.

Which brings me to a question I had earlier.

What if, instead of shelling, Georgia had just driven some trucks into South Ossetia, told everyone with Russian citizenship they were there illegally, throw their belongings on the back of the truck, and drive them all to the Russian border and say "Have fun in your new home!"

That would have been technically legitimate, right? And wouldn't the Russian peacekeepers have to help them clearing out illegals, at least insofar as preventing seperatists from shooting at the Georgian troops?

But don't you see? That's genocide!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

But don't you see? That's genocide!

Won't that be Ethnic cleansing rather? (Yeah, I know, people that in the same breath as genocide)

[Ender]

But don't you see? That's genocide!

What a marvelous strawman.

Won't that be Ethnic cleansing rather? (Yeah, I know, people that in the same breath as genocide)

There is no international legal definition of ethnic cleansing, but the international legal definition of genocide covers what is usually called ethnic cleansing, making those who use the term genocide in that context correct.

And no, forcible expulsion of Georgian citizens who share Russian citizenship would be neither ethnic cleansing nor genocide. It would however still be a crime against humanity under article 7, paragraph 1, section (d) and section (h) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, with clarification of 7.1.d in 7.2.d

[RogueIce]

It would however still be a crime against humanity under article 7, paragraph 1, section (d) and section (h) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, with clarification of 7.1.d in 7.2.d

"Deportation or forcible transfer of population" means forced displacement of the persons concerned by expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in which they are lawfully present, without grounds permitted under international law;

Emphasis mine. If they gave up their Georgian citizenship in favor of Russian, wouldn't that mean they're no longer lawfully allowed to be there? If they were there illegally, Georgia had every right to want them gone. It wouldn't have made it an automatic "crime against humanity" then, depending on how it was done.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Emphasis mine. If they gave up their Georgian citizenship in favor of Russian, wouldn't that mean they're no longer lawfully allowed to be there? If they were there illegally, Georgia had every right to want them gone. It wouldn't have made it an automatic "crime against humanity" then, depending on how it was done.

There is the issue of squatters' rights, especially when many generations probably lived there.

[RogueIce]

There is the issue of squatters' rights, especially when many generations probably lived there.

Maybe, but they voluntarily gave up their Georgian citizenship, right?

If tomorrow I said "I renounce my US citizenship" and went through the process of gaining Mexican citizenship (for example, and let's say I'm successful on both counts) wouldn't the US now have a right to deport me for being an illegal alien? I am, after all.

[Knife]

There is the issue of squatters' rights, especially when many generations probably lived there.

Maybe, but they voluntarily gave up their Georgian citizenship, right?

If tomorrow I said "I renounce my US citizenship" and went through the process of gaining Mexican citizenship (for example, and let's say I'm successful on both counts) wouldn't the US now have a right to deport me for being an illegal alien? I am, after all.

Indeed, we're not talking about squatters here, rather a large group of people that just renounced their citizenship, based off of this thread, because they wanted to be able to visit and move along a foreign boarder.

Very well, up past that boarder you go.

[[R_H]]

Nato cools relations with Russia

Nato foreign ministers have said they "cannot continue business as usual" with Russia, and demanded that Moscow pull troops from Georgia immediately.

The declaration followed talks in Brussels about the conflict between Moscow and Tbilisi over Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia.

Russia accused Nato of bias and of trying to save a "criminal regime".

Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said a withdrawal was possible within three or four days - if Georgia did likewise.

"The withdrawal will be determined by how effectively Georgia returns its forces to their permanent bases [held before the conflict]," Mr Lavrov said.

Some Russian troops have been seen leaving Gori, the largest Georgian town close to the South Ossetia border.

But BBC correspondents on the ground say there are still Russian artillery positions in place. In addition, there are Russian checkpoints about 35km (22 miles) from the capital, Tbilisi.

Georgia dismissed the move as a "show aimed at creating the illusion of a withdrawal".

The conflict broke out on 7 August when Georgia launched an assault to wrest back control of the Moscow-backed breakaway region of South Ossetia, triggering a counter-offensive by Russian troops who advanced beyond South Ossetia into Georgia's heartland.

A ceasefire was signed at the weekend, with Moscow pledging to begin pulling back its troops on Monday, but correspondents say there has so far been little sign of any large-scale withdrawal.

Both sides have accused the other of violating the EU-brokered peace plan.

Buffer zone

Following the crisis talks in Brussels, the 26 foreign ministers said in a joint statement that they could not have normal relations with Russia as long as Moscow had troops in Georgia.

"The Alliance is considering seriously the implications of Russia's actions for the Nato-Russia relationship," the statement said, read out by Nato Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer.

"We have determined that we cannot continue with business as usual."

Mr de Hoop Scheffer added that he could not see how the Nato-Russia Council - set up in 2002 as a framework for dialogue - could convene at this time.

But he said lines of communication would not be abandoned.

"The future of our relations with Russia will depend on the concrete actions Russia will take to abide by the words of President Dmitry Medvedev [regarding the peace plan], which is not happening at the moment," Mr de Hoop Scheffer said.

He also said that the member states had agreed to set up a Nato-Georgia commission to strengthen ties with Tbilisi, but stopped short of giving a timetable for Georgia's accession to Nato.

The Russian military has warned that the withdrawal process will be slow until the weekend at least, and that troops will remain in an undefined buffer zone around South Ossetia.

It says such a move is permitted under the ceasefire deal which allows Russia to take additional security measures until international peacekeepers are deployed.

But Georgia says Moscow is going much further and that Russian troops have seized control of a key commercial port in Poti in an attempt to cripple the Georgian economy.

Earlier, in an apparent goodwill gesture Russia exchanged 15 Georgian prisoners for five of its own troops at a Russian checkpoint in Igoeti, about 30km (18 miles) from Georgia's capital.

Georgian officials told the BBC's Helen Fawkes, who was at the scene, that two of the Russian prisoners were airmen who had been shot down by Georgian forces about two weeks ago.

Meanwhile, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said Russia and Georgia had agreed to allow 20 extra military observers to be deployed in and around South Ossetia.

In total, the OSCE said it would send up to 100 additional monitors to join the handful it already has in Georgia.

The OSCE has had a presence in South Ossetia since the end of a civil war there in the early 1990s, which resulted in de facto independence for the region.

It also supports a UN-led peace process in Georgia's other separatist region of Abkhazia.

[[R_H]]

Russia's response

Russia hits back at Nato warning

Russia has dismissed a warning by Nato that normal relations are impossible while its troops remain inside Georgia.

Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov accused Nato of bias and of trying to save the "criminal regime" in Tbilisi.

He insisted Moscow was not occupying Georgia and had no plans to annex the separatist region of South Ossetia.

Earlier, Nato demanded that Russia pull out its troops from Georgia as agreed in an EU-brokered ceasefire plan signed by both parties at the weekend.

Russian President Dmitri Medvedev told his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy in a phone call that the pull-out would be complete by 21-22 August, with the exception of some 500 troops, who will be installed in peacekeeping posts on either side of South Ossetia's border.

Some Russian troops have been seen leaving Gori, the largest Georgian town close to the South Ossetia border.

But BBC correspondents on the ground say there are still Russian artillery positions in place. In addition, there are Russian checkpoints close to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi.


The conflict broke out on 7 August when Georgia launched an assault to wrest back control of the Moscow-backed breakaway region of South Ossetia, triggering a counter-offensive by Russian troops who advanced beyond South Ossetia into Georgia's heartland.

Both sides have accused the other of violating the peace plan, and correspondents say there has so far been little sign of any large-scale withdrawal.

Buffer zone

Following crisis talks in Brussels, Nato's 26 foreign ministers said in a joint statement that they could not have normal relations with Russia as long as Moscow had troops in Georgia.

"The Alliance is considering seriously the implications of Russia's actions for the Nato-Russia relationship," the statement said, read out by Nato Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer.

"We have determined that we cannot continue with business as usual."

Mr de Hoop Scheffer added that he could not see how the Nato-Russia Council - set up in 2002 as a framework for dialogue - could convene at this time.

But he said lines of communication would not be abandoned.

He also said that the member states had agreed to set up a Nato-Georgia commission to strengthen ties with Tbilisi, but stopped short of giving a timetable for Georgia's accession to Nato.

In a televised address, Russia's foreign minister underlined Moscow's view that Russian troops only entered South Ossetia after Georgia tried to reintegrate the breakaway region by force.

Sergei Lavrov accused Nato of being "unobjective and biased".

"It appears to me that Nato is trying to portray the aggressor as the victim, to whitewash a criminal regime and to save a failing regime," he said.

Earlier, the Russian military warned that the withdrawal would be slow until the weekend at least, and that troops would remain in an undefined buffer zone around South Ossetia.

It said such a move was permitted under the ceasefire deal which allowed Russia to take additional security measures until international peacekeepers were deployed.

But Georgia accused Moscow of going much further, saying Russian troops have seized control of a key commercial port in Poti in an attempt to cripple the Georgian economy.

In an apparent goodwill gesture Russia exchanged 15 Georgian prisoners for five of its own troops at a Russian checkpoint in Igoeti, about 30km (18 miles) from Georgia's capital.

Georgian officials told the BBC's Helen Fawkes, who was at the scene, that two of the Russian prisoners were airmen who had been shot down by Georgian forces about two weeks ago.

Meanwhile, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said Russia and Georgia had agreed to allow 20 extra military observers to be deployed in and around South Ossetia.

In total, the OSCE said it would send up to 100 additional monitors to join the handful it already has in Georgia.

The OSCE has had a presence in South Ossetia since the end of a civil war there in the early 1990s, which resulted in de facto independence for the region.

It also supports a UN-led peace process in Georgia's other separatist region of Abkhazia.

[Ender]

It would however still be a crime against humanity under article 7, paragraph 1, section (d) and section (h) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, with clarification of 7.1.d in 7.2.d

"Deportation or forcible transfer of population" means forced displacement of the persons concerned by expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in which they are lawfully present, without grounds permitted under international law;

Emphasis mine. If they gave up their Georgian citizenship in favor of Russian, wouldn't that mean they're no longer lawfully allowed to be there? If they were there illegally, Georgia had every right to want them gone. It wouldn't have made it an automatic "crime against humanity" then, depending on how it was done.

You are allowed dual citizenship, which is why they are lawfully present. If they did not have it, they would be subject to immigration law and can be bounced without the ICC getting involved. But since they were originally Georgians, they are there legally, unless they went through the rigmarole of officially filing to renounce citizenship. If they didn't file the paperwork, it would be about the same as Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy on The Office simply by stating it in a loud voice. If they did officially file through whatever process they need to, then Georgia could load them up in INS vans or whatever their laws all for.

[CJvR]

You are allowed dual citizenship...

Doesn't that depend on the national laws?

[Stargate Nerd]

You are allowed dual citizenship...

Doesn't that depend on the national laws?

I would say so. Germany doesn't allow it for instance.

[Beowulf]

You are allowed dual citizenship...

Doesn't that depend on the national laws?

I would say so. Germany doesn't allow it for instance.

Yes it does. You can be a citizen of both Germany and the US. You can live all your life in the US, visit Germany on vacation, end up drafted (thanks to universal conscription), and have to serve your entire stint, regardless of the fact that you're an American citizen.

[Adrian Laguna]

You are allowed dual citizenship...

Doesn't that depend on the national laws?

Indeed it does, some nations automatically remove your citizenship if you get approved for another. Spain was one of these countries for a while, so my father was technically not a Spanish citizen in between the time he got his Venezuelan citizenship and the time he recuperated the Spanish one.

[TimothyC]

Nightwatch Updates for the 18th:

Russia-Georgia: Update. Deputy Chief of the General Staff General Colonel Anatoly Nogovitsin told the press at the daily briefing that Russia has begun withdrawing is troops in South Ossetia, according to Itar-Tass. However, no sources have reported withdrawals by Russian forces.

Georgian authorities reported signs the Russians are still expanding their occupation of Georgia. Russian military vehicles remained at Ingueti today, about 22 miles from Tbilisi, according to a BBC report. Russian forces also remain positioned to control the entry and exit roads to the town of Gori, just south of South Ossetia Province, and reportedly are advancing deeper into Georgian territory west of Gori, from the central city of Khashuri.

Georgian Deputy Interior Minister Eka Zhguladze told Bloomberg in a telephone interview that an armored Russian column was moving southward toward the city of Borjomi and another was moving to the city of Sachkhere, both west of Gori. She added that there are unexplained forest fires in the country.

The Russian military positions enable them to control all of north central and north western Georgia. That appears to constitute the security zone the Russians intend to enforce to prevent Georgian counter attacks. No forces have returned to barracks. Low level skirmishing continues. The Russians cannot be forced out.

A report attributed to US official sources stated the Russians have deployed SS-21 mobile tactical ballistic missiles into South Ossetia today. These missiles can easily range Tbilisi from South Ossetia.

It is important to stress that China has in no way criticized the Russians. Russia is not isolated as long as China sides with it.

No matter who started it, the Russian are not playing by the same rules as everyone else, I would even venture to say we are playing different games altogether.

And:

-Turkey: The government has refused permission for USNS Comfort to pass the Straits of Bosporus and the Dardanelles to enter the Black Sea in order to provide relief assistance to Georgia.

Can you say pressure from Russia?

Finally:

Libya: For the record. Libyan leader Qadhafi called on ethnic Tuaregs to stop their revolts in Mali and Niger, saying the insurgent leaders are harming the sensitive Islamic demographic area, Reuters reported citing Libya's Jana news agency. He told the insurgent leaders not to "cause hardships for children and women in the Sahara without need" and said the Tuaregs should recognize the Islamic heritage they have in common with other peoples in the region.

Qadhafi said Niger, Mali, Mauritania, Chad, Libya and Algeria represent "the Islamic weight of Africa" and that insurgents should not destroy it. If there was a need to bear arms, Qadhafi told the insurgent leaders, he would be the first to arm them and fight alongside them.

Touaregs in Niger announced they will lay down their arms in response to Qadhafi’s call and mediation and say those in Mali will do so as well.

Looks Like Qadhafi is watching the response from the rest of the world, and doing what he does best - be a shrewd politician

[Gil Hamilton]

Heh, Glenn Beck is such a tool. I was flipping channels tonight and caught a whiff of his program where he was interviewing a guy talking about how Putin was punishing Georgia for their love of democracy and the West, with a picture of the Kremlin with the words "Evil Empire" written next to it and the headline "Red Menace Returns?"

Seriously? God, there are such bozos in the media.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

No matter who started it, the Russian are not playing by the same rules as everyone else, I would even venture to say we are playing different games altogether.

It will be a really big stretch to say everyone is playing even the same game.

-Turkey: The government has refused permission for USNS Comfort to pass the Straits of Bosporus and the Dardanelles to enter the Black Sea in order to provide relief assistance to Georgia.

Can you say pressure from Russia?

How would you know? For all we know, the Turkish government wants nothing to do with the problem in Georgia. It's not like the Turkish government has consistently agreed with American policy, like their bombing of the Kurds.

[K. A. Pital]

We can't pressure Turkey - a NATO member for all it's worth - into anything. Turkey just doesn't want to have anything to do with the Caucasus war, and I can't blame them for it.

Why risk your relations and reputation for some shithole conflict?

Also, Turkey-US relations were already rather cool since the US constantly stopped Turkey from conducting anti-PKK raids into Iraq since the US loves the Kurds so much.

[CJvR]

...since the US loves the Kurds so much.

You can't blame them for that. The Kurds are the only Iraqi faction that doesn't shoot at them, regulary.

[CJvR]

Yes it does. You can be a citizen of both Germany and the US.

IIRC Germany only changed the law recently, mainly in an attempt to assimilate some of the millions of Turks living there.

[Shroom Man 777]

If the Russians stay in Georgia for five years and install a democracy after digging Saakashvili out of a hole and hanging him for all the world to see, the United States still would have no grounds to bitch and whine about it.

But America's bitchiness isn't the only factor here. There are actual-factual human beings inside Georgia who are suffering, and that's bad. So as much as I love seeing Russia's Putindickery pissing off Dubya to the point where he sounds constipated for two weeks straight... yeah, I do hope the Russians eventually leave Georgia to rot by its own accord.

As for Turkey, good for them

What was that, America? You were sending US Navy ships to deliver humanitarian aid while sending a "strong" message to Russia?

Ah, the sweet sound of a deflating whoopie cushion. *sighs*

[Dahak]

Doesn't that depend on the national laws?

I would say so. Germany doesn't allow it for instance.

Yes it does. You can be a citizen of both Germany and the US. You can live all your life in the US, visit Germany on vacation, end up drafted (thanks to universal conscription), and have to serve your entire stint, regardless of the fact that you're an American citizen.

You can only be citizen of Germany and another nation under very limited circumstances.
If you are US American, for instance, you cannot become German without renouncing your American citizenship. The law tries to avoid dual citizenships due to naturalization as much as possible.