Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[CaptainChewbacca]

I daresay Russia is playing Chess while the rest of the world is trying to play Monopoly.

[Ender]

If the Russians stay in Georgia for five years and install a democracy after digging Saakashvili out of a hole and hanging him for all the world to see, the United States still would have no grounds to bitch and whine about it.

But America's bitchiness isn't the only factor here. There are actual-factual human beings inside Georgia who are suffering, and that's bad. So as much as I love seeing Russia's Putindickery pissing off Dubya to the point where he sounds constipated for two weeks straight... yeah, I do hope the Russians eventually leave Georgia to rot by its own accord.

As for Turkey, good for them

What was that, America? You were sending US Navy ships to deliver humanitarian aid while sending a "strong" message to Russia?

Ah, the sweet sound of a deflating whoopie cushion. *sighs*

So the suffering of the populace is bad, but refusing to let others provide humanitarian aid is good? Which of these extremely contradictory statements is the empty platitude, and which is how you really feel?

[[R_H]]

Why are people refering to Special Battalions Vostok and Zapad as mercenaries? According to Wiki (couldn't find any English sources), Zapad servicemen were always loyal to Russia, and Vostok are former anti-Russian militants who were given amnesty and then swore allegiance to Russia. How the fuck are they mercenaries?

[Pelranius]

Why are people refering to Special Battalions Vostok and Zapad as mercenaries? According to Wiki (couldn't find any English sources), Zapad servicemen were always loyal to Russia, and Vostok are former anti-Russian militants who were given amnesty and then swore allegiance to Russia. How the fuck are they mercenaries?

Because the Bush Administration and the Murdoch Fox Nazi News says they are, that's why!

[Block]

Why are people refering to Special Battalions Vostok and Zapad as mercenaries? According to Wiki (couldn't find any English sources), Zapad servicemen were always loyal to Russia, and Vostok are former anti-Russian militants who were given amnesty and then swore allegiance to Russia. How the fuck are they mercenaries?

I'm just guessing here, since I have no idea, but it's possible that if they're not official Russian military units, even if they have a tradition of fighting for Russia, and they get paid to do it, they'd fit the definition?

[[R_H]]

I'm just guessing here, since I have no idea, but it's possible that if they're not official Russian military units, even if they have a tradition of fighting for Russia, and they get paid to do it, they'd fit the definition?

The Wiki entry (again, apologies for using Wiki as a source) states that

Special Battalions Vostok and Zapad (Russian: Специальные батальоны "Восток" и "Запад", lit. East and West) are units of the GRU based in Chechnya. The overwhelming majority of personnel are ethnic Chechens, while the command personnel are mixed (Russian/Chechen).

They were raised in 2003, initially as special companies of commandant's offices (established on the territory of the Chechen Republic in 2002). The Chechen personnel are of diverse origins. Zapad servicemen were always loyal to Russia, while many in Vostok are ex-militants who fought against Russian troops in the First and/or the Second Chechen War, handed over their weapons, were amnestied and subsequently swore allegiance to Russia.

These battalions are the only ethnic Chechen battalions in the structure of the Russian Ministry of Defence or Ministry of Internal Affairs, and are outside any control of the leaders of Chechen Republic.

The units are directly subordinate to the Russian Ministry of Defence and the GRU. Operationally, however, they are included in the structure of the 42nd Motor Rifle Division (Chechnya).

[[R_H]]

Found some more info about the Chechen Security Forces. The pages about Zapad and Vostok require registration and payment though.

[Shroom Man 777]

So the suffering of the populace is bad, but refusing to let others provide humanitarian aid is good? Which of these extremely contradictory statements is the empty platitude, and which is how you really feel?

There are other venues to providing humanitarian aid than doing so with the USN and flexing American military muscle strength.

[Pablo Sanchez]

So the suffering of the populace is bad, but refusing to let others provide humanitarian aid is good?

The straits are territorial waters of Turkey, and allowing a vessel flying the flag of a foreign navy the use of your territorial waters during an international crisis is a big step. Turkey didn't feel like making an obvious diplomatic gesture of support for Georgia and the USA, not to mention opposition to Russia, in this crisis. It was a bit of a dick move to try to put them in that possession in the first place.

If the USA was serious about just sending aid, it would have done so with a civilian ship, which Turkey would have allowed. Since the aim was more about sending a diplomatic message and maybe getting a little foothold in the Black Sea, they sent the USNS Comfort. This is really no different than if the US Army had pulled together a bunch of its mobile field hospitals in Iraq and asked Turkey for permission to march them right through Eastern Turkey to Tblisi, in uniform, with flags waving. They might be noncombat units, but letting them use your national territory as a highway isn't exactly an act of neutrality. It's worth remembering that the Ottoman Empire got sucked into the debacle of WWI because they allowed German ships to sail through the Straits and attack Russian positions.

Turkey said no to the USNS Comfort, and they had every right and reason to do so.

[Ender]

So the suffering of the populace is bad, but refusing to let others provide humanitarian aid is good? Which of these extremely contradictory statements is the empty platitude, and which is how you really feel?

There are other venues to providing humanitarian aid than doing so with the USN and flexing American military muscle strength.

The Comfort is a hospital ship. It carries no troops and has no weapons. It is the opposite of military muscle. So we are back to your contradiction of saying how you feel for the people, but cheer them being denied aid.

[Ender]

So the suffering of the populace is bad, but refusing to let others provide humanitarian aid is good?

The straits are territorial waters of Turkey, and allowing a vessel flying the flag of a foreign navy the use of your territorial waters during an international crisis is a big step. Turkey didn't feel like making an obvious diplomatic gesture of support for Georgia and the USA, not to mention opposition to Russia, in this crisis. It was a bit of a dick move to try to put them in that possession in the first place.

If the USA was serious about just sending aid, it would have done so with a civilian ship, which Turkey would have allowed. Since the aim was more about sending a diplomatic message and maybe getting a little foothold in the Black Sea, they sent the USNS Comfort. This is really no different than if the US Army had pulled together a bunch of its mobile field hospitals in Iraq and asked Turkey for permission to march them right through Eastern Turkey to Tblisi, in uniform, with flags waving. They might be noncombat units, but letting them use your national territory as a highway isn't exactly an act of neutrality. It's worth remembering that the Ottoman Empire got sucked into the debacle of WWI because they allowed German ships to sail through the Straits and attack Russian positions.

Turkey said no to the USNS Comfort, and they had every right and reason to do so.

Firstly, name for me a single civilian ship that can match the capabilities of the Comfort or Mercy. Then name for me one that can surge out in under 5 days to be there and help. Could the US have done other things? Yes. Is this the most effective one? Yes. Does Turky have the right to do this? Yes. Is it still an incredible contradiction for Shroom to say he feels for the populace and then cheer on the fact that they can't get to a hospital? Yes.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Is this the most effective one? Yes.

First, this is only true if we accept the idea that it was ever likely for Turkey to allow the US military to transit it's national waters in an operation that would piss off Russia and serve absolutely no interest of Turkey's. It just wasn't going to happen. So either the decision-makers in the US arrogantly assumed that Turkey would bow to unreasonable demands on its sovereignty, or they knew that they wouldn't get through and sent the ship anyway as a political ploy. You pick.

Second, it's ridiculous to disregard the diplomatic and military dimension of this mission and pretend it was a purely humanitarian effort. The decision to send the Comfort was probably cynically calculated because it would accomplish several things.
It would directly involve Turkey in US aid to Georgia during the conflict, making it easier for the US to pressure Turkey for further assistance which Turkey did not want to give, because they had already decisively broken with Russia.
It would give the USN a "foot in the door" for the Black Sea. We could later claim that the Comfort was endangered and then demand that Turkey allow combat elements of the USN to transit their waters to defend it.
The Comfort itself could be used for non-humanitarian purposes, such as to deter Russian forces from carrying out operations against the Georgian coast or any port in which the Comfort was docked.

Third, it's obtuse to say that Shroom can't feel bad for the Georgians at the same time he appreciates the US diplomatic offensive getting a stern check from Turkey. Earlier in the thread Edi said that he hoped Russia sustained heavy casualties in the fighting; do you think he said so because of his deep and abiding hatred for individual Russians as human beings, or because he despises their aggressive foreign policy?

[Ender]

Is this the most effective one? Yes.

First, this is only true if we accept the idea that it was ever likely for Turkey to allow the US military to transit it's national waters in an operation that would piss off Russia and serve absolutely no interest of Turkey's. It just wasn't going to happen. So either the decision-makers in the US arrogantly assumed that Turkey would bow to unreasonable demands on its sovereignty, or they knew that they wouldn't get through and sent the ship anyway as a political ploy. You pick.

Well, seeing as how we've seen the SOP for this kind of situation is to send a carrier group laden with supplies in, and hey look at that they asked to send in a lone ship instead of a task force, I'm gonna go with they changed procedure to try and get some actual help in there. For a political ploy they could have just as easily sent in a task force like they did with the Lincoln after the tsunami and the Truman after Katrina and played the game you are saying they are now. Instead they sliced it down to the least offensive, most effective thing they have.

Second, it's ridiculous to disregard the diplomatic and military dimension of this mission and pretend it was a purely humanitarian effort. The decision to send the Comfort was probably cynically calculated because it would accomplish several things.
It would directly involve Turkey in US aid to Georgia during the conflict, making it easier for the US to pressure Turkey for further assistance which Turkey did not want to give, because they had already decisively broken with Russia.
It would give the USN a "foot in the door" for the Black Sea. We could later claim that the Comfort was endangered and then demand that Turkey allow combat elements of the USN to transit their waters to defend it.
The Comfort itself could be used for non-humanitarian purposes, such as to deter Russian forces from carrying out operations against the Georgian coast or any port in which the Comfort was docked.

So a bunch of maybes that are dependent on your first assumption, which is itself contradicted by previous operations, being correct. All of which dodges the point that we don't have another ship close to being able to do what the Comfort can do. Again, what ship should we have sent to help them, seeing as how this and the Mercy are the only ones we have?

Third, it's obtuse to say that Shroom can't feel bad for the Georgians at the same time he appreciates the US diplomatic offensive getting a stern check from Turkey.

No, laughing that people can't get medical treatment while claiming you feel bad for their suffering makes it pretty fucking clear that either he doesn't actually feel bad about all those people, or he is just trying to hop on the band wagon here yet again.

Earlier in the thread Edi said that he hoped Russia sustained heavy casualties in the fighting; do you think he said so because of his deep and abiding hatred for individual Russians as human beings, or because he despises their aggressive foreign policy?

A combination of both, which he admitted and retracted the statement. If you want to cite past history, try citing all of it.

[Edi]

So, the Finnish foreign minister Alexander Stubb was in Georgia today trying to gather information on just how feasible it would be to send OSCE observers into the conflict area. Didn't quite go as planned. The Russians blocked their access almost everywhere and basically just threw them out of Gori, which is still fully occupied along with all of its environs.

The Russian troops are also forcibly removing ethnic Georgians living in South Ossetia, putting them on trucks, driving them south and dumping them by the side of the road in Georgia. So I suppose ethnic cleansing is universally bad, except when Russia and its friends do it.

Fuck them.

Before you ask, no, I don't have direct links to English language articles, as this lot is based on what Mr. Stubb said in an interview to Finnish TV news (Channel 4), though his phrasing was not nearly as blunt as mine. I expect we'll see something soon enough.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Comfort is a hospital ship.

Oh.



Err... my mistake.

[K. A. Pital]

The Russian troops are also forcibly removing ethnic Georgians living in South Ossetia

Minor correction, our regular Army aren't doing it - the Ossetians are. We already told them to stop this.

Though it's fairly obvious for any Western observer the difference between Russian soldiers and the Ossetian militia would be nonexistent as both are combatants on the same side.

Incidentally, this is a complete repeat of the 1990s war, when Gamkhasurdia's soldiers brutally cleansed people in Tshinvali, for which the Ossetians later replied with cleansing Georgian villages in the region.

The Russians blocked their access almost everywhere and basically just threw them out of Gori, which is still fully occupied along with all of its environs.

Gori itself isn't occupied, we already transferred control over the city to Georgian police. It's environs are, however, especially the parts where Georgian military was located. The Russian army is intent on destroying all Georgian military hardware which it can lay hands on, and clearly stated it.

[Guardsman Bass]

Don't they realize that the US will probably just sell the Georgians more shit after this all blows over?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Don't they realize that the US will probably just sell the Georgians more shit after this all blows over?

Well, someone has to cough up the money to buy them ....

[Guardsman Bass]

I was being slightly facetious, but that's more or less right. Of course, they could always give Georgia more "military aid" to be used to buy American weapons, or just the weapons directly.

Not that I approve of this.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I was being slightly facetious, but that's more or less right. Of course, they could always give Georgia more "military aid" to be used to buy American weapons, or just the weapons directly.

Not that I approve of this.

Well, your country is known to fling money around as military aid.

Though I suspect it's more collusion with the contractors to fill their pockets.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Well, seeing as how we've seen the SOP for this kind of situation is to send a carrier group laden with supplies in, and hey look at that they asked to send in a lone ship instead of a task force, I'm gonna go with they changed procedure to try and get some actual help in there. For a political ploy they could have just as easily sent in a task force

No, they couldn't have, because Turkey would never have allowed military vessels to transit its national waters. Are you fucking illiterate or what?

So a bunch of maybes that are dependent on your first assumption, which is itself contradicted by previous operations, being correct.

Contradicted, bullshit. It's clear that you're just incapable of understanding the situation.

All of which dodges the point that we don't have another ship close to being able to do what the Comfort can do. Again, what ship should we have sent to help them, seeing as how this and the Mercy are the only ones we have?

What ship should we have sent? The more important question is "could we have sent a ship?" Sending a vessel flying USN colors through Turkish waters to undertake an operation guaranteed to piss off Turkey's most powerful neighbor and yield absolutely no benefits for Turkey while at the same time we'd pissing on Turkey via the Iraqi Kurds for years was not remotely a possibility. I can't believe I have to keep saying this. The only real possibility is to send aid through civilian channels, which will take longer and be less effective in theory, but would actually be feasible.

It would have been most effective for the US government to teleport the Mayo Clinic or Johns Hopkins directly to Tbilisi with the power of magic. Why didn't they try to do that?

A combination of both, which he admitted and retracted the statement. If you want to cite past history, try citing all of it.

Fine.

[Edi]

The Russian troops are also forcibly removing ethnic Georgians living in South Ossetia

Minor correction, our regular Army aren't doing it - the Ossetians are. We already told them to stop this.

Though it's fairly obvious for any Western observer the difference between Russian soldiers and the Ossetian militia would be nonexistent as both are combatants on the same side.

Incidentally, this is a complete repeat of the 1990s war, when Gamkhasurdia's soldiers brutally cleansed people in Tshinvali, for which the Ossetians later replied with cleansing Georgian villages in the region.

The Russians blocked their access almost everywhere and basically just threw them out of Gori, which is still fully occupied along with all of its environs.

Gori itself isn't occupied, we already transferred control over the city to Georgian police. It's environs are, however, especially the parts where Georgian military was located. The Russian army is intent on destroying all Georgian military hardware which it can lay hands on, and clearly stated it.

Thanks for the clarification on the regular army vs Ossetian militia issue, Stas. As far as Gori etc, the situation has changed quite a bit in the last 24 hours, but yesterday when I wrote that, Gori was still under Russian control with Russian troops in the city. That was during Stubb's visit, but I guess they started removing troops after it.

[Ender]

Well, seeing as how we've seen the SOP for this kind of situation is to send a carrier group laden with supplies in, and hey look at that they asked to send in a lone ship instead of a task force, I'm gonna go with they changed procedure to try and get some actual help in there. For a political ploy they could have just as easily sent in a task force

No, they couldn't have, because Turkey would never have allowed military vessels to transit its national waters. Are you fucking illiterate or what?

Ah, being intentionally obtuse now. Gotcha. Yes, they never would have allowed military ships through. That is why, instead of sending a big task force to play politics like you claim, we sent a non commissioned ship capable of no warfare actions at all. As you pointed out, they should have let it through, because it is not a combat vessel.

Contradicted, bullshit. It's clear that you're just incapable of understanding the situation.

This situation being that the US is the big bad guy and should have sent a civilian ship in, instead of a civilian ship like they did?

What ship should we have sent? The more important question is "could we have sent a ship?" Sending a vessel flying USN colors through Turkish waters to undertake an operation guaranteed to piss off Turkey's most powerful neighbor and yield absolutely no benefits for Turkey while at the same time we'd pissing on Turkey via the Iraqi Kurds for years was not remotely a possibility. I can't believe I have to keep saying this. The only real possibility is to send aid through civilian channels, which will take longer and be less effective in theory, but would actually be feasible.

Do you even fucking understand that the Comfort is not a USN ship? What part of USNS is un-fucking-clear? It is not a military vessel. It is operated by civilians. You keep arguing we should have sent some of the merchant marine ships in, except that as part of Military Sealift Command, the Comfort is part of the fucking Merchant Marine. You keep contradicting yourself here.

It would have been most effective for the US government to teleport the Mayo Clinic or Johns Hopkins directly to Tbilisi with the power of magic. Why didn't they try to do that?

Oh good, when you can't actually defend your nonexistent point, just throw in some bullshit.

[Lonestar]

So Pablo, do you actually understand the difference between a USNS vessel and USS vessel? Or are you intentionally being stupid?

The absolute, most warlike thing you can say about an Americna Hospital ship is that they had some comms guys and some hospital corpsman(In practice, civilian docs come aboard and the junior corpsman find themselves mess cranking). No collection gear, no weapons. They don't even have USN-standard compartmentalization, because you need to push gurneys around.

But hey, they do have a Helo pad!

Is that the qualification for "warship" for you?

[K. A. Pital]

So what did you say about "hospital ships" again?

USS McFaul is and some other battleships soon will be travelling to the Black Sea, as I see, and doing it through the Bosphoros.