Are we seeing a general breakdown of the international law protecting refugees rights? Certaqinly No-one seems to be wanting Darfur refugees.
Over here in the UK there's a constant attempt by the Home Office to sling out anyone on economic grounds, despite fleeing warfare and political persecution in places like Algeria, Western Sahara and others.
Israel turns away Darfur refugees
Israel will in future turn away all illegal entrants from Sudan's war-torn region of Darfur, a top official says.
The policy applies to new arrivals only, while some 500 people from Darfur already in Israel will be permitted to stay for "humanitarian reasons".
Israel is struggling to stem the flow of Africans entering the country via its southern border with Egypt.
Overnight, Israel handed 48 Sudanese people back to Egypt, according to Egyptian security officials.
Egypt's Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said Egypt accepted the refugees for "very pressing humanitarian reasons" but such a move "would not be repeated again".
At least 200,000 people are believed to have died and more than two million displaced in Darfur since fighting broke out in 2003 between rebels and pro-government militias.
Prospects of work
Israeli spokesman David Baker said on Sunday: "The policy of returning back anyone who enters Israel illegally will pertain to everyone, including those from Darfur."
Last month, Israel's interior ministry said a limited number of Darfuris would be allowed to remain in Israel as it was "clear that they have suffered the most".
As many as 50 asylum seekers arrive in Israel each day, lured by the prospect of employment, according to UN High Commissioner for Refugees estimates.
Israel estimates that 2,800 people have entered the country illegally in recent years - nearly all were from Africa, including 1,160 from Sudan.
However, some critics have said that Israel, which was created after the Nazi persecution of the Jews during WWII, is morally obliged to offer sanctuary to people fleeing persecution.
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I’m pretty sure that from a legal standpoint refuges are supposed to seek asylum in the closest nation, so passing through Egypt and then into Israel doesn’t leave them with a legal defense against being turned away. Being a refugee doesn’t grant you an automatic right to choose whatever nation in the world you want to go live in.
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— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
I don't see a problem here. Honestly is there any reason Israel, or indeed any country, has to accept refugees? Unless taking in these people would benefit the host nation why bother? A country's first responsibility should be towards its own people in my opinion, even if some say that's hypocritical.
Compared with the estimated death toll the Janjaweed and other assorted militia's have racked up in Darfur, the occasional suicide bombing or Hezbollah raid isn't so bad, and a marked improvement indeed...
Durandal wrote:It's scary to think that Israel is an improvement for these people.
Why wouldn't it be? I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's not a third-world shithole like Sudan.
The suicide bombings?
Uh excuse me? Ever lived here or even visited?
Contrary to CNN and other international media, you can easily go through the entire 7 year intifada without seeing anything outside of TV, I know it's possible because I did it in Jerusalem, which was the most bombed city in the country.
Honestly I'm more worried about getting run over by an angry Israeli driver then I am of an Pal gunning me down.
More relevent to the OP, the situation is fucked up but has been building up for months, the country is severly constricted in terms of what it can accept, but this doesn't change the moral lacking in turning them away. Though doesn't match a mayor saying they shouldn't be allowed to study in israel because they're black.
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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:You know, for a nation borne out of the aftermath of a genocide against its people, Israel being a pretty huge dick.
Or should the refugees just cut their dicks and convert to Judaism?
Speaking of dick moves, I just read in my newspaper that Jewish settlers are using drinking water that was meant for a Palestinian village named Deir Al-Khatab (sp?) to fill a goddamn swimming pool, while sending their used water to the Palestinian village
wautd wrote:Speaking of dick moves, I just read in my newspaper that Jewish settlers are using drinking water that was meant for a Palestinian village named Deir Al-Khatab (sp?) to fill a goddamn swimming pool, while sending their used water to the Palestinian village
I, for one, would prefer that you quote the actual source rather than just stating, "I just read in my newspaper that. . ."
Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776
I would prefer if there was not an attempt to hijack this into an IvP thread.
In regards to the Darfuri, they probably are victims of the Islamic militia, and feel that Israel would be sympathetic to anyone terrorized by angry Muslims, and that Egypt --as a place that's apparantly crawling with Muslims-- would be a bad place to stop and set up camp.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Coyote wrote:I would prefer if there was not an attempt to hijack this into an IvP thread.
In regards to the Darfuri, they probably are victims of the Islamic militia, and feel that Israel would be sympathetic to anyone terrorized by angry Muslims, and that Egypt --as a place that's apparantly crawling with Muslims-- would be a bad place to stop and set up camp.
Well, the article doesn't mention the religion of the refugees, it's quite possible some of them are Muslims as well.
As for the burden of accepting refugees, it's fairly easy to argue that the First World should accept everyone that wants to escape the Third World what with the various policies (subsidized agriculture, anyone?) keeping them poor. Israel less so, but considering all the money they get from the U.S. it would apply to them as well.
This ignores the axiom of 'government serves its peoples interests first', although I don't know how accepting refugees would be that detrimental.
Coyote wrote:I would prefer if there was not an attempt to hijack this into an IvP thread.
In regards to the Darfuri, they probably are victims of the Islamic militia, and feel that Israel would be sympathetic to anyone terrorized by angry Muslims, and that Egypt --as a place that's apparantly crawling with Muslims-- would be a bad place to stop and set up camp.
Well, the article doesn't mention the religion of the refugees, it's quite possible some of them are Muslims as well.
As for the burden of accepting refugees, it's fairly easy to argue that the First World should accept everyone that wants to escape the Third World what with the various policies (subsidized agriculture, anyone?) keeping them poor. Israel less so, but considering all the money they get from the U.S. it would apply to them as well.
This ignores the axiom of 'government serves its peoples interests first', although I don't know how accepting refugees would be that detrimental.
Accepting large numbers of refugees into a somewhat small country could have quite a nasty effect on the infrastructure. You would probably find things like hospitals overwhelmed. Housing would be a massive issue as well...
It's a bugger that's for sure, but a balance has to be made, somehow
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Dartzap wrote:
Accepting large numbers of refugees into a somewhat small country could have quite a nasty effect on the infrastructure. You would probably find things like hospitals overwhelmed. Housing would be a massive issue as well...
It's a bugger that's for sure, but a balance has to be made, somehow
Well, I was aware of that, but I didn't think the 2,800 refugees would make that much of a dent in the infrastructure. I could be wrong about that, of course, it just seems too small to affect the country very much.
Israel is also a desert country, which doesn't make it the best place for more people. I'm not sure why they couldn't be redirected to Europe or something, but I imagine they'd find similar problems there.
Dartzap wrote:
Accepting large numbers of refugees into a somewhat small country could have quite a nasty effect on the infrastructure. You would probably find things like hospitals overwhelmed. Housing would be a massive issue as well...
It's a bugger that's for sure, but a balance has to be made, somehow
Well, I was aware of that, but I didn't think the 2,800 refugees would make that much of a dent in the infrastructure. I could be wrong about that, of course, it just seems too small to affect the country very much.
Israel is also a desert country, which doesn't make it the best place for more people. I'm not sure why they couldn't be redirected to Europe or something, but I imagine they'd find similar problems there.
Quite a few European nations have a hard enough time with their own populations, let alone other people coming in. Where exactly do you plonk 2000 people if they drop out of the sky? I certainly know it would be very hard in the UK to find them somewhere.
Of course, the question you need to ask is Why are these people fleeing their homeland, and how can it be stopped?. You have to take an Holistic approach to such things
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Days Unstabbed, Unabused, Unassualted and Unwavedatwithabutchersknife: 0
wautd wrote:Speaking of dick moves, I just read in my newspaper that Jewish settlers are using drinking water that was meant for a Palestinian village named Deir Al-Khatab (sp?) to fill a goddamn swimming pool, while sending their used water to the Palestinian village
I, for one, would prefer that you quote the actual source rather than just stating, "I just read in my newspaper that. . ."
Gigaliel wrote:
Well, I was aware of that, but I didn't think the 2,800 refugees would make that much of a dent in the infrastructure. I could be wrong about that, of course, it just seems too small to affect the country very much.
Israel is also a desert country, which doesn't make it the best place for more people. I'm not sure why they couldn't be redirected to Europe or something, but I imagine they'd find similar problems there.
Remember the problems people had finding housing and medical care in the US when Katrina hit and suddenly made a few thousand people homeless? Yep, it'd be like that. Combine the fact that Israel is not the most ideal country as you said and it would be much worse.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Dartzap wrote:Quite a few European nations have a hard enough time with their own populations, let alone other people coming in. Where exactly do you plonk 2000 people if they drop out of the sky? I certainly know it would be very hard in the UK to find them somewhere.
Of course, the question you need to ask is Why are these people fleeing their homeland, and how can it be stopped?. You have to take an Holistic approach to such things
General Zod wrote:
Remember the problems people had finding housing and medical care in the US when Katrina hit and suddenly made a few thousand people homeless? Yep, it'd be like that. Combine the fact that Israel is not the most ideal country as you said and it would be much worse.
Bleh, you're quite right then. I suppose infrastructure is never designed for massive spikes in demand by definition. The only way to pull this off would be continued investment in specific areas where the refugees would presumably settled (preferably scattered about so they don't congregate into ethnic ghettos). It should pay off eventually as immigrants are usually positive investments in the economy due to their work ethic.
Now the tricky part would be convincing people to vote for such ideas.
Hmm. I believe Sikon mentioned that any country that could perform massive integration efforts would become the strongest country in the world by shear force of numbers. Mind you, easier said and done.
At any rate, even if the Darfur crisis settles down, living standards aren't going anywhere very soon since the place is a desert. Any agrarian efforts will have to use extensive irrigation of their nearby river. Said river is a major tributary to the Nile River and Egypt has threatened war over its water rights several times. This is totally going to end well.
Gigaliel wrote:At any rate, even if the Darfur crisis settles down, living standards aren't going anywhere very soon since the place is a desert. Any agrarian efforts will have to use extensive irrigation of their nearby river. Said river is a major tributary to the Nile River and Egypt has threatened war over its water rights several times. This is totally going to end well.
Are you still talking about Israel? The Jordan river doesn't go anywhere near Egypt, much less the Nile (the Jordan is along Israel's eastern border, while Egypt is to the west). However, getting more water out of the Jordan river is a problematic issue (especially since the water is shared with Jordan) - desalination is probably a better bet.
In any rate, though, the living standards in Israel proper (excluding the Palestinians) are, AFAIK, comaprable to European ones.
I think he means in Sudan, their homeland, where the Nile runs through from Lake Victoria as the "White Nile".
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Just an quick thought, I'm sure that even Isreal's infrastructure could handle two thousand people added suddenly, just not as a monolithic block. If those people were spread around by families instead of just...here's two thousand people, they need their own apartment complex and two thousand jobs near there..... most countries could handle the influx.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
