Scientology labeled a criminal organization in Belgium?w

[Superman]

Scientology faces criminal charges

By CONSTANT BRAND, Associated Press Writer2 hours, 49 minutes ago

A Belgian prosecutor on Tuesday recommended that the U.S.-based Church of Scientology stand trial for fraud and extortion, following a 10-year investigation that concluded the group should be labeled a criminal organization.

Scientology said it would fight the criminal charges recommended by investigating prosecutor Jean-Claude Van Espen, who said that up to 12 unidentified people should face charges.

Van Espen's probe also concluded that Scientology's Brussels-based Europe office and its Belgian missions conducted unlawful practices in medicine, violated privacy laws and used illegal business contracts, said Lieve Pellens, a spokeswoman at the Federal Prosecutors Office.

"They also face charges of being ... a criminal organization," Pellens said in a telephone interview.

An administrative court will decide whether to press charges against the Scientologists.

In a statement, Scientology's Europe office accused the prosecutor of hounding the organization and said it would contest the charges.

"For the last 10 years, the prosecutor has been using the media, trying to damage the reputation of the Church of Scientology and not being able to put a case in court," Scientology said. "As a consequence, this created a climate of intolerance and discrimination" in Belgium.

It added that the prosecutor's recommendations suggested Scientology was guilty even before a court could hear the charges, making it "difficult for the Church of Scientology to recover and properly defend (itself) before the court."

Scientology has been active in Belgium for nearly three decades. In 2003, it opened an international office near the headquarters of the European Union to lobby for its right to be recognized as an official religious group, a status it does not enjoy in Belgium.

A Belgian parliamentary committee report in 1997 labeled Scientology a sect and investigations were launched into the group's finances and practices, such as the personality tests conducted on new members.

Investigators have spent the past decade trying to determine how far Scientology went in recruiting converts after numerous complaints were filed with police by ex-members alleging they'd been the victims of intimidation and extortion.

Justice officials seized financial records, correspondence, bank statements and other papers in their decade-long probe to track the flow of money to Scientology. Police also raided the offices of several consultancy firms linked to the Church of Scientology.

Pellens said that prosecutors expect Scientology to mount a strong legal challenge to the charges at a court hearing, which could come in the next two to three months. She acknowledged that could delay the case for years.

Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations.

The German government considers Scientology a commercial enterprise that takes advantage of vulnerable people.

The Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology, which is seeking to expand in Europe and be recognized as a legitimate religion, teaches that technology can expand the mind and help solve problems. The church, founded in 1954, counts actors Tom Cruise and John Travolta among its 10 million members.

From yahoo news

GOOD! They need more of this.

Here in Sacramento, these fucking nutty assholes stand out in front of Wal Mart on the weekends and offer a free "stress test" to people walking by. I kind of got into it with them once, but my wife pulled me away. I say we as a society need to pull together more and shame these idiots. Society would be better off.

[Flagg]

That's nice. When are they planning on indicting the Vatican? Or are they only going after the unpopular religions?

[Andrew_Fireborn]

I'd always wondered why the powers that be hadn't done anything like that yet... What with sites like Clambake and such...

Good to know something's finally being done... even if it's only in one country so far...

[Superman]

That's nice. When are they planning on indicting the Vatican? Or are they only going after the unpopular religions?

I agree, but I think it's more realistic to pick some battles over others... at least at this point.

[Bounty]

I only have a link in Dutch, but Scientology is throwing a fit about the leaked details of their case, saying they constitute a violation of the "confidentiality of investigation" (what's that in English?) and that the prosecution is "out to get them".

The case itself is pretty impressive: the investigation has been running since 1999, going through Scientology with a fine tooth comb. Some of the crimes they will be prosecuted for:

-Formation of a criminal organisation
-Extortion
-Fraud
-Violation of trade codes
-Violation of privacy laws
-Unlicensed practice of medicine

If Scientology tries the "freedom of religion" defence, they might as well not bother: the former chairman of the parliamentary commission investigating cults has already stated that any prosecution does not violate freedom of religion since it punishes actions, not beliefs.

This will be interesting.

[K. A. Pital]

Wat? A dangerous mindbreaking cult which robs and otherwise harms it's members on a regular basis, steals money through massive frauds and breaks people's privacy is brought on criminal charges?

I think European judiciary system sets a landmark. We need more of this.

Would be good to see this in the US... although I guess it will never happen.

[Superman]

If Scientology tries the "freedom of religion" defence, they might as well not bother: the former chairman of the parliamentary commission investigating cults has already stated that any prosecution does not violate freedom of religion since it punishes actions, not beliefs.

This will be interesting.

A few countries don't recognize them as an actual religion. As silly as that is (as all religions are wacky), they have this coming.

[chitoryu12]

That's nice. When are they planning on indicting the Vatican? Or are they only going after the unpopular religions?

It's like that old joke.

What's the difference between a religion and a cult? About 2,000 years.

[salm]

Yeah, but it´s the only practically possible way to get rid of at least some of these fuckers.

[Superman]

I don't think nailing Scientology, as opposed to say Catholicism, is hypocritical, at least in this case. The government in Belgium says that they have hard evidence to prosecute these idiots, and it should be an interesting case.

As much as I would love to live in my atheistic paradise and go after all religions equally, that's not reality. We have to start with the more blatant screwballs, and in this case the Scientologists deserve whatever they get. If just 10% of what ex members say is true, it's probably time for this cult to get smacked down a few notches.

Personally, I'd love to see their main headquarters stormed and trashed by Feds , but eh... this country seems to think that Freedom of religion applies to something as wacky as Scientology.

[Jadeite]

I only have a link in Dutch, but Scientology is throwing a fit about the leaked details of their case, saying they constitute a violation of the "confidentiality of investigation" (what's that in English?) and that the prosecution is "out to get them".

Isn't that just stating the obvious?

[Darth Wong]

That's nice. When are they planning on indicting the Vatican? Or are they only going after the unpopular religions?

It's like that old joke.

What's the difference between a religion and a cult? About 2,000 years.

I've heard the variation: "One man is a lunatic. A hundred men are a cult. A million men are a religion."

[Flagg]

I dunno, I just find this incredibly disturbing. Well, not this, so much as the shit the Germans pulled last month with Tom Cruise. I mean am I the only one who finds it disturbing that countries with fucking state religions who don't exactly have a great history of tolerance when it comes to religious minorities are essentially persecuting a very small group of people because they disagree with their beliefs?

[Darth Wong]

I dunno, I just find this incredibly disturbing. Well, not this, so much as the shit the Germans pulled last month with Tom Cruise. I mean am I the only one who finds it disturbing that countries with fucking state religions who don't exactly have a great history of tolerance when it comes to religious minorities are essentially persecuting a very small group of people because they disagree with their beliefs?

Not so much disturbing as sadly typical of religious hypocrisy. Any accusation you level against scientology can be used against the "legitimate" religions as well, but nobody dares to do so. Yes, these actions are unethical and harmful to others, and should therefore be outlawed. But for some reason, nobody notices until a non-mainstream religion does it.

[Plekhanov]

I dunno, I just find this incredibly disturbing. Well, not this, so much as the shit the Germans pulled last month with Tom Cruise. I mean am I the only one who finds it disturbing that countries with fucking state religions who don't exactly have a great history of tolerance when it comes to religious minorities are essentially persecuting a very small group of people because they disagree with their beliefs?

The Belgian government isn't 'persecuting' them 'because they disagree with their beliefs' it's putting them on trial for allegedly breaking the law, there is a difference.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I dunno, I just find this incredibly disturbing. Well, not this, so much as the shit the Germans pulled last month with Tom Cruise. I mean am I the only one who finds it disturbing that countries with fucking state religions who don't exactly have a great history of tolerance when it comes to religious minorities are essentially persecuting a very small group of people because they disagree with their beliefs?

1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but Germany has been magnitudes more tolerant of plurality than a non-state-religion country like, say, the US ever has been ever since those regrettable World War 2 days.

2) You have considered the fact that maybe, just maybe, they're prosecuting these people not because they disagree with the majority, but rather because it's objectively verifiable that they're breaking the law and dangerous to society, right? I don't pay much attention to Hollyrot, but from what little I've heard, if Tom Cruise weren't part of the american-aristocracy class, he'd be forcibly institutionalized by now for his actions.

3) From what I've heard, most countries in Western Europe, despite having state-religions, are far more irreligious and tolerant in general.

[Bounty]

The catholic church is clever enough not to break the law...much. In Belgium, there isn't anything you can persecute the church *as an organization* for, not to mention that the backlash would be tremendous. There is a fine sort of equilibrium between the state and the church at the moment, where the former tolerates the latter while the latter doesn't push it's ideologies - upsetting that balance would not be a smart idea.

[K. A. Pital]

From what I've heard, most countries in Western Europe, despite having state-religions, are far more irreligious and tolerant in general.

That is true. Hell, Germany or Belgium arу magnitudes more secular than the US. Besides, read the fucking article. They are tried for law-breaking which is crime, not for "their belifs". Do you suggest a gangster is also tried for his "beliefs"? I mean, he believes in breaking the law, so clearly he must be set free.

[Flagg]

I dunno, I just find this incredibly disturbing. Well, not this, so much as the shit the Germans pulled last month with Tom Cruise. I mean am I the only one who finds it disturbing that countries with fucking state religions who don't exactly have a great history of tolerance when it comes to religious minorities are essentially persecuting a very small group of people because they disagree with their beliefs?

The Belgian government isn't 'persecuting' them 'because they disagree with their beliefs' it's putting them on trial for allegedly breaking the law, there is a difference.

And declaring the entire fucking religion a "criminal organization". I don't care how many alter-boys get impaled on clergy cock while the Vatican willfully obstructs justice, you will never see that church be declared a criminal organization.

[salm]

I mean am I the only one who finds it disturbing that countries with fucking state religions who don't exactly have a great history of tolerance when it comes to religious minorities are essentially persecuting a very small group of people because they disagree with their beliefs?

State and church have been separated in Germany since 1919. There is no state religion.

[Bounty]

I mean am I the only one who finds it disturbing that countries with fucking state religions who don't exactly have a great history of tolerance when it comes to religious minorities are essentially persecuting a very small group of people because they disagree with their beliefs?

No one can be obliged to contribute in any way whatsoever to the acts and ceremonies of a religion, nor to observe the days of rest.

We don't have a state religion. Predominantly catholic, yes, but the church has no official preferential status; it's recognized, that's all.

[Flagg]

I mean am I the only one who finds it disturbing that countries with fucking state religions who don't exactly have a great history of tolerance when it comes to religious minorities are essentially persecuting a very small group of people because they disagree with their beliefs?

State and church have been separated in Germany since 1919. There is no state religion.

Ahh, understood. I was under the impression that most European countries still had an "official" religion, even if it was just ceremony.

[Superman]

And declaring the entire fucking religion a "criminal organization". I don't care how many alter-boys get impaled on clergy cock while the Vatican willfully obstructs justice, you will never see that church be declared a criminal organization.

Well, one of the charges is the practice of medicine without a license (something they should be charged with here too). You don't see the Vatican issuing orders to "treat" suicidal people and deny them proper psychiatric care (and even allow them to die).

I see your point, and I think the Catholics are as goofy as the next bunch, but in this case it sounds as if the government officials have information that the higher-ups in Scientology are involved in criminal activity. Maybe they have information that says the Scientology headquarters in Belgium IS a criminal organization.

[Flagg]

And declaring the entire fucking religion a "criminal organization". I don't care how many alter-boys get impaled on clergy cock while the Vatican willfully obstructs justice, you will never see that church be declared a criminal organization.

Well, one of the charges is the practice of medicine without a license (something they should be charged with here too). You don't see the Vatican issuing orders to "treat" suicidal people and deny them proper psychiatric care (and even allow them to die).

I see your point, and I think the Catholics are as goofy as the next bunch, but in this case it sounds as if the government officials have information that the higher-ups in Scientology are involved in criminal activity. Maybe they have information that says the Scientology headquarters in Belgium IS a criminal organization.

Well I'm fully willing to admit that there may be specifics that differentiate what the Scientologists get up to compared with other bullshit factories, but I highly doubt that more mainstream churches would be targetted in this way even if they engaged in far worse activity.

[Superman]

Well I'm fully willing to admit that there may be specifics that differentiate what the Scientologists get up to compared with other bullshit factories, but I highly doubt that more mainstream churches would be targetted in this way even if they engaged in far worse activity.

I agree. They're not even taxed properly here in the States. From what I've seen, though, I think Scientologists are more dangerous than your average fundies or Catholics. All religions are full of crap, like you said, but some are definitely more dangerous than others.