just thinking about this.
comparing the Draft riots and the subsequent firestorm of combined military and arson burnings in the slum areas of New York at the time to 9-11...
the casualty count of an estimated 20k-40k people killed during the draft riots.
The fact that the union lost more men in one day at Gettysburg, then ten times what has been lost in four years of the Iraq occupation.
The civil war produced one of our country's most drunk, debatched, currupt and under educated presidents.
A large contention of people believe our current president to be drunk, currupt and undereducated....
Civil War vs. Current Crisis
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
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The Yosemite Bear
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Civil War vs. Current Crisis
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
Re: Civil War vs. Current Crisis
Where the hell are you getting your numbers from? Union killed (assuming we include all missing as KIA) during all three days of Gettysburg amounted to about 8,500, or a little under 3x U.S. military deaths in Iraq. As for the NYC draft riots, while hard counts are difficult to establish given the nature of the event, estimates range from a few hundred to a few thousands killed and injured; I have never seen anything approaching 20 thousand.
As for the differences, I would dispute that many in the Union during the Civil War saw their home as under threat. (Though that isn't true in the brutal fighting in the border states: Tennessee, WV, Kentucky, and Missouri in particular.) In the bulk of the Union, southern secession posed no threat, despite what neo-Confederates will tell you about the tariff. If the south left, then so what? My home in NY or New England or out west is not going to be affected. Union support in the ACW was very much based around a cause, saving the Union, and Lincoln's genius in getting the Confederacy to open hostilities by firing on Fort Sumter.
Though the patriotic music that came out after 9/11 was truly cringeworthy, the Union music of the early days of the Civil War was even more fervent.
The Battle Cry of Freedom (Union version):
We are springing to the call
Of our brothers gone before,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom;
And we'll fill our vacant ranks with
A million free men more,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.
Battle Hymn of the Republic:
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free;*
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.
* It wasn't until after the war that the line was changed to "let us live to make men free", which is the version most commonly used today.
Of course, support for both the Iraq and Civil Wars fell as time went on. There is a question of the degree to which Union support for the ACW fell in the last years, but the near victory of McClellan in the 1864 election suggests that all was not well with the Union public. We see a similar phenomenon even in WWII, where after the defeat of Germany the American public was getting antsy and wanted to bring the troops home. On the eve of the invasion of Japan, many divisions were stripped of their most veteran soldiers who were sent home to be replaced with raw draftees. There seems to be a very clear trend of 'war fatigue' in the American public, and I would imagine the same holds true in all countries, though to varying degrees of course. Given its location and the difficulty of making the American public feel threatened enough to continue fighting a war, I would put the US at the "quicker to get fatigued" end of the spectrum.
As for the differences, I would dispute that many in the Union during the Civil War saw their home as under threat. (Though that isn't true in the brutal fighting in the border states: Tennessee, WV, Kentucky, and Missouri in particular.) In the bulk of the Union, southern secession posed no threat, despite what neo-Confederates will tell you about the tariff. If the south left, then so what? My home in NY or New England or out west is not going to be affected. Union support in the ACW was very much based around a cause, saving the Union, and Lincoln's genius in getting the Confederacy to open hostilities by firing on Fort Sumter.
Though the patriotic music that came out after 9/11 was truly cringeworthy, the Union music of the early days of the Civil War was even more fervent.
The Battle Cry of Freedom (Union version):
We are springing to the call
Of our brothers gone before,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom;
And we'll fill our vacant ranks with
A million free men more,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.
Battle Hymn of the Republic:
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free;*
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.
* It wasn't until after the war that the line was changed to "let us live to make men free", which is the version most commonly used today.
Of course, support for both the Iraq and Civil Wars fell as time went on. There is a question of the degree to which Union support for the ACW fell in the last years, but the near victory of McClellan in the 1864 election suggests that all was not well with the Union public. We see a similar phenomenon even in WWII, where after the defeat of Germany the American public was getting antsy and wanted to bring the troops home. On the eve of the invasion of Japan, many divisions were stripped of their most veteran soldiers who were sent home to be replaced with raw draftees. There seems to be a very clear trend of 'war fatigue' in the American public, and I would imagine the same holds true in all countries, though to varying degrees of course. Given its location and the difficulty of making the American public feel threatened enough to continue fighting a war, I would put the US at the "quicker to get fatigued" end of the spectrum.
"Typical Canadian wimpiness. That's why you have the snowball and we have the H-bomb." Grandpa Simpson
Re: Civil War vs. Current Crisis
I think he may be equating casualties with Fatalities, of which there was certainly "ten times" the number of battlefield deaths, when compared to casualties, but not compared to deaths to deaths.acesand8s wrote:Where the hell are you getting your numbers from? Union killed (assuming we include all missing as KIA) during all three days of Gettysburg amounted to about 8,500, or a little under 3x U.S. military deaths in Iraq. As for the NYC draft riots, while hard counts are difficult to establish given the nature of the event, estimates range from a few hundred to a few thousands killed and injured; I have never seen anything approaching 20 thousand.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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Oni Koneko Damien
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Considering the most recent banning:
Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee
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Oni Koneko Damien
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And considering the fact that I completely failed to double-check what thread I was in before posting this, my face is a little red now, this was supposed to go in the motivational-poster thread. If a mod could cover my idiocy by splitting and/or moving I would be most grateful.
Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee