Most Ready for "Green Sacrifices"

[Alerik the Fortunate]

According to the BBC

Last Updated: Monday, 5 November 2007, 12:22 GMT
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Most ready for 'green sacrifices'
Earth from space
The poll suggests the public are more ready than politicians
Most people are ready to make personal sacrifices to address climate change, according to a BBC poll of 22,000 people in 21 countries.

Four out of five people indicated they were prepared to change their lifestyle - even in the US and China, the world's two biggest emitters of carbon dioxide.

Opinion was split over tax rises on oil and coal - 44% against, 50% in favour.

Support would rise if the cash was used to boost efficiency and find new energy sources, the poll suggested.


Americans talk about how to address climate change

In pictures
BBC environment reporter Matt McGrath says the poll suggests that in many countries people are more willing than their governments to contemplate serious changes to their lifestyles to combat global warming.

Overall, 83% of respondents throughout the world agreed that individuals would definitely or probably have to make lifestyle changes to reduce the amount of climate-changing gases they produce.

In almost all countries in Europe, and in the US, most people said they believed the cost of fuels that contribute most to climate change would have to increase.


Graphs showing how many people think lifestyles need to change, and how many people think energy costs will have to increase

Green lesson for politicians

The only exceptions were Italy and Russia, where significant numbers of people believed that increases in the price of energy would not be needed.

The pollsters suggested that high energy costs in both countries could have put people off the idea of increasing prices even further.

Attitudes to rising energy costs in Asia and Africa were more varied.

Large majorities in China said higher energy costs were necessary - although the BBC's Dan Griffiths, in Beijing, pointed out that people interviewed over the telephone were unlikely to contradict official policy.

In South Korea and India, the majorities in favour of higher prices were much smaller.

And in Nigeria, 52% of the respondents said they did not think higher fuel costs would be necessary to combat global warming.

Green China?

Opinions were divided on proposals to increase taxes on fossil fuels.


READ THE FINDINGS

BBC World Service poll results in full [1.40MB]
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Worldwide, 50% are in favour and 44% are opposed.

The Chinese are the most enthusiastic when it comes to energy taxes - 85% of those polled saying they were in favour, 24 percentage points more than in the next most-supportive countries.

In the rest of the world, narrow majorities - and sometimes minorities - favoured higher energy taxes.

However, when people opposed to energy taxes were asked whether their opinion would change if the revenue from the taxes were used to increase energy efficiency or develop cleaner fuel, large majorities in every country were in favour of higher taxes.

And when those opposed to higher taxes were asked whether they would change their minds if other taxes were reduced in order to keep their total tax burden the same, the survey again discovered large majorities in every country in favoured of higher green taxes.

"This poll clearly shows that people are much more ready to endure their share of the burden than most politicians grant," said Doug Miller, director of Globescan, the polling company that conducted the survey on behalf of the BBC.

Globescan interviewed 22,182 people in the UK, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Chile, China, Egypt, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Italy, Kenya, Mexico, Nigeria, the Philippines, Russia, South Korea, Spain, Turkey, and the United States.

Interviews were conducted face-to-face or by telephone between 29 May 29 and 26 July 2007.

This is good, I suppose. But I wonder how many really suspect the magnitude of the change that will be needed, or the immediacy of that need. We shall see.

[Alerik the Fortunate]

Ghetto edit: Title should say "Green Sacrifices" rather than G"reen Sacrifices.

Also, on the BBC page, their little chart at the bottom indicates that support for higher fuel taxes is highest in China, while support for "lifestyle changes" is highest in Brazil.

[Sarevok]

Well my family had to make a few adjustment due to rising electricity prices. We had to give up running ACs all the time. Like others our car is now converted to run on CNG instead of petrol. Also this summer a blackout rule was imposed on large shopping malls running centralized ACs and extravagant lighting. Not sure if it is related to peak oil phenomena but this may a sign of things to come.

[Broomstick]

Some of us started modifying our lifestyles long ago, even in the US.

For example, the Other Half and I have always opted for high-mileage, efficient vehicles. Our current car gets 42 miles per gallon - the only thing with a better rating would be a hybrid. We keep our vehicles until they wear out - 13 years for my first car. We still have vehicles 2 and 3 and probably will for years to come, so we're not adding to clutter/consumption by buying every 2-3 years as many Americans do.

I have been riding mass transit to work for over 20 years. Yes, at present I do have to drive to the train station, but that's still a considerable savings over driving all the way into work, over 40 miles each day.

We have converted all but two lights in our house to either fluorescent bulbs or LEDs. Our landlord has noticed the drop in electrical consumption and thanked us.

We only air condition one room of the house in summer, the bedroom, to give us a cool place to sleep. The coolness seeps into the rest of the house, making it quite bearable without needing to refrigerate the whole place.

We don't have a mechanical dishwater - we do it the old fashioned way, with human power.

Which is not to say we're perfect, and we do have a few indulgences, but just the above means we leave a smaller carbon footprint than most Americans. If everyone here did the same there would be a noticeable dent in consumption.

[Colonel Olrik]

We don't have a mechanical dishwasher - we do it the old fashioned way, with human power.

I don't have an article to show, but I've been told several times that dishwashers actually save energy, since they reuse/spend less water and the heating of the water is more efficient. Provided that you fill them properly before use, naturally.

[Broomstick]

We don't have a mechanical dishwasher - we do it the old fashioned way, with human power.

I don't have an article to show, but I've been told several times that dishwashers actually save energy, since they reuse/spend less water and the heating of the water is more efficient. Provided that you fill them properly before use, naturally.

Depends, doesn't?

Since we have a well, the water I use doesn't require purification (yes, we DO check the well water regularly to make sure it is safe and healthy) or long-distance transport. So I may use a little more water, but still consume less energy overall. We use a septic system, so our waste water isn't contributing to polluting local open waterways. There are trade-offs, of course, but I suspect our dishwashing is less of a burden than that of some other people.

Also, since I have to clean everything myself there is some incentive to not dirty excessive amounts of dishes.

[Darth Wong]

Trust me, this is bullshit. People have always responded positively to environmental polls, but when push comes to to shove, they do nothing.

One excellent example of this phenomenon in the Marathon lightbulb. I read an article once about the Marathon lightbulb; it was initially marketed by Philips as the "Earth Light" lightbulb, and it was a dismal failure. Why? Because the packaging emphasized its environmental credentials.

When Philips re-branded it as "Marathon" and emphasized its long life and cost savings, it suddenly became a success. But as "Earth Light", it failed completely. The moral of this story is that people may talk a good game on environmentalism, but when it comes time to belly up at the checkout counter, that disappears. If they don't perceive personal financial interest, then they won't do it.

It's like Wal-Mart. Everyone says they hate it, yet they will still go there if they need something cheap.

[Alerik the Fortunate]

Part of it is that the positive response was just to the vague "lifestyle changes". Other than the idea of raising fuel taxes to fund alternative energy research, there weren't a lot of specifics. I suppose if they asked specifics like, would you be willing to stop using your car or sell your house in the suburbs to move to the inner city or give up long hot showers, people would have a markedly different response.

That being said, most people seem clueless as to decisions that affect their day-to-day lives. Local planning and zoning laws and development standards dictate what kind of built environment people live in, yet most are totally ignorant of local decisions, except developers with big investments and cranky old seniors who want to make sure there are enough secure mobile home parks without young people or poor families around. At least this has been my experience in meetings here. Mostly things are proposed along the lines of what's already being done because "it's what people want." Only because they don't know any better, and the "American dream" is sold pre-packaged to the masses.

I know I need to reduce my driving, but at least I live in walking distance of a train station, most bus routes (for what that's worth here in Southern California), and most of my shopping and related needs. It just takes a bit more discipline than I've been mustering to make the best use of the situation. And we grow our own veggies and dry our laundry on a clothesline ::: )

[[R_H]]

Four out of five people indicated they were prepared to change their lifestyle - even in the US and China, the world's two biggest emitters of carbon dioxide.

Opinion was split over tax rises on oil and coal - 44% against, 50% in favour.

Support would rise if the cash was used to boost efficiency and find new energy sources, the poll suggested.

Other than the tax increases on oil and coal, what were the other proposed "Green sacrifices"? People will just bite the bullet and continue shelling out to keep their vehicles on the road. And what's with the alternative energy wank? Alternatives to what, driving? Not much research needed for that alternative, it's called mass transit. Alternatives to fossil fuel power plants? Again, not much research needed, the alternative is nuclear power.

[Ryan Thunder]

Four out of five people indicated they were prepared to change their lifestyle - even in the US and China, the world's two biggest emitters of carbon dioxide.

Opinion was split over tax rises on oil and coal - 44% against, 50% in favour.

Support would rise if the cash was used to boost efficiency and find new energy sources, the poll suggested.

Other than the tax increases on oil and coal, what were the other proposed "Green sacrifices"? People will just bite the bullet and continue shelling out to keep their vehicles on the road. And what's with the alternative energy wank? Alternatives to what, driving? Not much research needed for that alternative, it's called mass transit.

But people need their gas-guzzling retard cars to drive for an hour through traffic to work in the morning.

Alternatives to fossil fuel power plants? Again, not much research needed, the alternative is nuclear power.

Yes, but the stupider greeners say they're "dangerous" and produce Evil Nuclear Waste (TM), even though it's easier to deal with than air pollution.

Never mind that all some idiot has to do is point at Chernobyl and ask "But what if there's a meltdown?"

Even citing the utter impossibility of something like that happening at a modern nuclear facility is completely ineffective on the impenetrably dense mind of a terrified and ignorant human...

[MKSheppard]

My car gets 16 MPG at best. I love it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

My car gets 16 MPG at best. I love it.

I can't wait til you're a fucking serf or cannon fodder.

[Aaron]

I can't wait til you're a fucking serf or cannon fodder.

Unfortunately the military doesn't take the deaf, which is too bad because from what I've seen and experianced the military will severely alter your views on life. It would probably be pretty good for him.

[MKSheppard]

I can't wait til you're a fucking serf or cannon fodder.

Can you feel the love here?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I can't wait til you're a fucking serf or cannon fodder.

Can you feel the love here?

Like your +1 post wasn't placed with the intent to irritate and thumb your nose at the discussion because your pin-sized testicles and walnut-sized brain deny you both the courage and the intelligence or education required to meaningfully refute or respond to the concepts you disagree with.

But never fear! We have Sheepfucker Analysis (TM). Just "feel" your way through subjects you don't understand, rejecting them on the basis of "feeling" insufficient cargo-cult patriotism. I'm glad we have your Conservative Gut-Instinct (tm) to lead us along complex societal questions.

[Lonestar]

I can't wait til you're a fucking serf or cannon fodder.

Fortunately, I am so wedged into the MIC as to not worry too much about being a serf and/or cannon fodder.

[MKSheppard]

We have Sheepfucker Analysis (TM).

Who are you, and what did you do with Illuminatus Primus? That's a copyrighted trademark of ElfDart Enterprises, LTD.

And yes, my car gets 16 MPG. It's what the onboard computer says the average gas mileage is, and it's a relatively new car; a Mercury Sable, which is massively superior to the old Nissan 1987 Maxima shitbox I used to drive -- hint, watching the engine come dangerously close to overheating as you go up a 3.8% grade near Frederick is not Fun (TM).

[MKSheppard]

Fortunately, I am so wedged into the MIC as to not worry too much about being a serf and/or cannon fodder.

You're a tick, sucking the life blood from good honest climate-fearin' people!

Secondly, I love the entire "serf/cannon fodder" argument. If things get so bad that they're reduced to using me as cannon fodder, where's that going to leave Mr economics major? At least Lonestar can live high off the reams of classified paperwork that will be generated post-peak oil....

[Illuminatus Primus]

So I appropriated an amusing nickname for you. Are you going to start harping on originality on my part when 95% of your content is just aping actual educated experts with like...degrees who read...dunno... books 'n shit?

That aside, its missing the forest for the trees; your 16 mpg car will be unaffordable to use probably within the decade. If you must deal with it - you and others - for now I neither blame you personally nor insult you for that alone: the system was set up to make us all dependent on an unsustainable way of life. But that's no excuse for showing enthusiasm for a very - one could say the most - socially irresponsible aspect of modern life.

Oh, wait, I forgot. Magic Siberia will come to the rescue. Carry on building Box Boxes and starting wars and building suburbs.

[MKSheppard]

Are you going to start harping on originality on my part when 95% of your content is just aping actual educated experts with like...degrees who read...dunno... books 'n shit

That's kind of funny, considering you've been doing a lot of aping of experts the last year or so; with the entire shmetroleum angle.

That aside, its missing the forest for the trees; your 16 mpg car will be unaffordable to use probably within the decade.

Irrevelant, as I need reliable transportation now.

But that's no excuse for showing enthusiasm for a very - one could say the most - socially irresponsible aspect of modern life.

I guess it's not a good idea to say that my family uses styrofoam plates a lot?

Oh, wait, I forgot. Magic Siberia will come to the rescue.

Hmm? You've been yammering on about this for the last week or so.

Carry on building Box Boxes and starting wars and building suburbs.

Gotcha, you're just another angsty youngster who is drifting aimlessly in life, and is looking for some values issue to latch onto to make their life meaningful and purposeful. So you're pining for TEOTAWKI, something which never comes.

[Darth Wong]

That's kind of funny, considering you've been doing a lot of aping of experts the last year or so; with the entire shmetroleum angle.

If one is going to ape others, at least it's better to ape experts than political hacks, which seems to be your preference whenever environmental issues come up.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That's kind of funny, considering you've been doing a lot of aping of experts the last year or so; with the entire shmetroleum angle.

You're a moron. I wasn't criticizing you simply for quoting experts, I was saying you're a hypocrite for making a big deal of originality when you lack any.

Gotcha, you're just another angsty youngster who is drifting aimlessly in life, and is looking for some values issue to latch onto to make their life meaningful and purposeful. So you're pining for TEOTAWKI, something which never comes.

Drifting aimlessly in life? Okay, ex-con electrician. Let me know when you lose your (with women) virginity, find companionship, or get an education. Again, plenty of sophisticated evidence has been provided regarding the state of the planet WRT resources, demand growth, overshoot, etc. Do you have access to arguments and evidence to refute those claims? Or are you just feeling your right-wing way toward a conclusion that doesn't hurt your worldview?

[Lord Pounder]

And Sheps virginity with men or women has what to do with the point at hand? Do you fancy shep or something, I really wish you'd just get it on with him your angst bores me? Every thread Shep makes an appearance in you appear not to soon after baratting him for being a virgin, if this was a playground in a school, you'd be pushing him over or pulling his hair.

[Colonel Olrik]

Gotcha, you're just another angsty youngster who is drifting aimlessly in life, and is looking for some values issue to latch onto to make their life meaningful and purposeful. So you're pining for TEOTAWKI, something which never comes.

I work in a corporate research department of one of the biggest companies in the world. My colleagues are highly educated and accomplished professionals, and energy and peak oil has been more and more a back ground worry for the last year - how to face it, and how to make Siemens profit from it.

If you think this crisis is an angsty teen thing, you're very mistaken.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Excuse me. Shep ran in here tossing grenades just to be a little bitch (everyone knows this and is hardly under serious dispute, and the only difference is some just ignore him like the barking dog outside or the drug addict hobo on the street corner), and I pointed it out.Then rather than take the offer of debating why he thinks these concerns are stupid, he replies with the worthless drivel from that I'm a "lost youngster." Well, that's just asking for it when you're an ex-con with no life.

I really do want to see this supposed evidence that he alludes vaguely to in several threads when one does manage to coax a claim out of him that Siberia has endless oil and nothing is wrong, but never puts it up. I'd really like to see this common allusion amongst anti-peakists, but I've yet to be so lucky. I would sharpen my rhetoric and the comprehensiveness of my responses on the subject if I could refute the vague claim in detail.