Over Reaction to High School Project

[The Star Marshall]

Please read this news article on a class project being performed by a senior Spanish V class in Columbus OH.

Article

Seems like a good way to get students involved and thinking about an important issue.

Well, look what happened when the rightwing bloggers get a hold of it. You can just type Erica Vieyra into Google and you'll find dozens of blogs with hundreds to thousands of comments. Almost all from people attacking her as a left wing nutjob. Here's one example

I've known Ms. Vieyra and her family for probably fifteen years, I heard about this earlier today from her father and brother, and I also heard she's received hundreds of pieces of hate mail attacking her and even a few death threats.

I'd just like to let those interested take a look at the article, maybe do a little research if you feel so inclined. I've just started reading those attack blogs and already see several inaccurate statements and even outright lies in them. I'll list some of them at a later date when I've got more time to go through it all.

But if anyone has any questions about whats going on I can probably answer some of them based on what I already know or by asking her. Her school district has asked her to ignore the blogs and negative comments and to try and stay above it.

I don't feel its fair to let these people attack one of the nicest people I've ever met. So I'm just trying to get her side of this out, she doesn't deserve to be treated as a bullseye for bloggers and their ilk.

Just two quick points;.

One: this a Spanish V class so Spanish speaking culture and society are part of the lesson plan not just learning the language.

Two: the parents were aware of this project and not one of them has complained about it.

Thanks for reading.

PS: Yes this is officially my first post but I'm actually an older member who moved, changed ISPs and e-mail accounts and stayed off the board for sometime. A few months ago I started lurking again and tried to log into my account but couldn't remember what the password was, so I created this one. Which I prefer any way since I'd rather not use my real name anymore, for employment related reasons that could theoretically pop up in the future.

[The Star Marshall]

And I'm an idiot. This should have been in News and Politics. Just blame it on Jetlag, sorry.

[Mr Bean]

Don't worry of to N&P it goes.
FYI I think the teacher had a brilliant idea in the subject of her own class.

[Darth Wong]

Right-wingers apparently feel that only a "left-wing nutjob" would see any benefit in showing kids how difficult it is to immigrate to the United States? Oh well, I guess they've had a problem with letting kids learn about reality ever since Darwin.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Well they might actually start thinking...

you know fundy nut jobs have had a problem with science since Brother Oakham posted his Razor.

[PeZook]

So...the main complaint of idiot bloggers is that children should be learning Spanish, rather than doing a project like that?

At least that's what they're claiming, but I have a sneaking suspicion they just plain don't like people showing that the US is not the Perfect Land Where All Is Jolly And Good (TM) to children.

And, of course, they don't like Mexicans as a rule.

[Zablorg]

Unlimited immigration to the US should be frustrated. Foreigners have no right to immigrate to the US.

Immigration is a privilege that should be granted to a select few whose presence will prove beneficial to the community. Immigration is a tool that should be used to further the national interests of the US, not the individual interest of each and every individual who dreams of a higher standard of living.

Each applicant should be able to answer the question: what do you bring to the table, other than an appetite?

From one of the fucked up bloggers. Disgusting.

[Zablorg]

Has anyone noticed how they are all assuming that they don't learn how to speak Spanish? One interesting activity and suddenly everything else is overlooked. Fuckers.

[PeZook]

Each applicant should be able to answer the question: what do you bring to the table, other than an appetite?

Who wants to bet he's a no-conservation, SUV-driving asshole up to his ass in debt? Last I checked, things in the US costted money just as anywhere else, so it's not like the immigrant can just magically get a high standard of living by the virtue of just being inside the country.

Has anyone noticed how they are all assuming that they don't learn how to speak Spanish? One interesting activity and suddenly everything else is overlooked. Fuckers.

Heh...immigration is an issue, and every issue tends to get people concentrated on it (and especially the idiots). It's a good point, though: If they did the excercise in Spanish, then what's the problem, really?

[Zablorg]

Who wants to bet he's a no-conservation, SUV-driving asshole up to his ass in debt? Last I checked, things in the US costted money just as anywhere else, so it's not like the immigrant can just magically get a high standard of living by the virtue of just being inside the country.

Exactly. Surely if they were no good at doing anything then they would not get paid likewise?

And lawl at the retards who think that the whole exersize is invalid because it does not address each and every fucking issue with immigration.

[haard]

Unlimited immigration to the US should be frustrated. Foreigners have no right to immigrate to the US.

Immigration is a privilege that should be granted to a select few whose presence will prove beneficial to the community. Immigration is a tool that should be used to further the national interests of the US, not the individual interest of each and every individual who dreams of a higher standard of living.

Each applicant should be able to answer the question: what do you bring to the table, other than an appetite?

W. T. F.
I thought the US was build by immigrants who dreamed of a higher standard of living, and a basic guiding principle in the formation of the nation was to extend that chance to others.

[Flagg]

Unlimited immigration to the US should be frustrated. Foreigners have no right to immigrate to the US.

Immigration is a privilege that should be granted to a select few whose presence will prove beneficial to the community. Immigration is a tool that should be used to further the national interests of the US, not the individual interest of each and every individual who dreams of a higher standard of living.

Each applicant should be able to answer the question: what do you bring to the table, other than an appetite?

W. T. F.
I thought the US was build by immigrants who dreamed of a higher standard of living, and a basic guiding principle in the formation of the nation was to extend that chance to others.

Well yeah, but not those dirty spics.

[weemadando]

Why do I always get reminded of this:

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[The Grim Squeaker]

Unlimited immigration to the US should be frustrated. Foreigners have no right to immigrate to the US.

Immigration is a privilege that should be granted to a select few whose presence will prove beneficial to the community. Immigration is a tool that should be used to further the national interests of the US, not the individual interest of each and every individual who dreams of a higher standard of living.

Each applicant should be able to answer the question: what do you bring to the table, other than an appetite?

W. T. F.
I thought the US was build by immigrants who dreamed of a higher standard of living, and a basic guiding principle in the formation of the nation was to extend that chance to others.

Well yeah, but not those dirty spics.

Er, pardon my ignorance, but what's wrong with barriers to Immigration based on, well, skills/ability? I can understand a different view on this in America (LAnd of immigrants and all that, cultural favouring), but objectively, from the POV of those currently in the nation, it seems like a solid, objective idea..

Obviously I'm violently against discrimination, but what'w wrong with limiting immigration to people who will help the nation, and (Example) won't just serve as a cheap source of labour for corporations or agriculture by pushing down wages as they're exploited (Last part is an example).

[Flagg]

W. T. F.
I thought the US was build by immigrants who dreamed of a higher standard of living, and a basic guiding principle in the formation of the nation was to extend that chance to others.

Well yeah, but not those dirty spics.

Er, pardon my ignorance, but what's wrong with barriers to Immigration based on, well, skills/ability? I can understand a different view on this in America (LAnd of immigrants and all that, cultural favouring), but objectively, from the POV of those currently in the nation, it seems like a solid, objective idea..

Obviously I'm violently against discrimination, but what'w wrong with limiting immigration to people who will help the nation, and (Example) won't just serve as a cheap source of labour for corporations or agriculture by pushing down wages as they're exploited (Last part is an example).

They have certain skills that others in this country are unwilling to use. Namely, harvesting crops. They are also willing to take low paying jobs that many Americans don't want, like janitorial and housekeeping.

The problem is that they are willing to accept illegal wages and working conditions due to their illegal status, and most corporations would like to keep things that way. So their errand boys, (members of Congress and Lou Dobbs) exploit the racism, xenophobia, and ignorance of the Britney Spears crowd to get them all worked up. That makes it harder for illegals to gain legal sttus, and thus they continue to be ripe for exploitation.

[brianeyci]

The problem DEATH is immigration is by definition a loss of money for the government. Letting only skilled workers or technical workers in is a failure, precisely because these people do not deserve to be treated like shit.

And when you move to a new country you will be treated like shit, believe it or not. People do not know you, it's a new language, it's annoying even being around fresh off the boat who don't know the customs or language.

So "bring to the table" is an utterly worthless argument. That guy who says "bring to the table" is a fucking retard. There needs to be roofers, maids, drycleaners, manual labourers, and immigration solves this problem. Let in people who want a higher quality of life and aren't afraid to work hard for it, and they can advance the next generation. But let only those with an advanced education and all you get are Ph.D. driving taxicabs.

Immigration should happen based on quotas, and they should let in people with basic competence in the English language and basic physical fitness. That should be it. Also, if a man who meets these requirements comes, they should automatically let in immediate family (wife and children) as long as he can support himself. Asking for a highly qualified immigrant is just asking for trouble: it didn't work in Germany during the IT boom, and it doesn't work in any other country. The "skilled" immigrants just end up getting pissed and moving back home, because they expect an immediate catapult into posh white collar jobs when they stick out like a sore thumb and those jobs are for native speakers and natively trained only.

The immigrants who do not know this are sorely disappointed and end up getting angry at the government for not giving them white collar jobs.

[brianeyci]

ghetto edit: This is also why in general, the "immigrants are taking jobs from the natives" is bullcrap. The accusation goes like this: natives would have a far higher standard of living, getting paid 12 or 14 bucks an hour, if there weren't so much fucking immigrants.

That's so much bullshit it's not even funny. Corporations and businesses will pay the least they can to retain their personnel, and they would still be fucking over the manual workers if they had a chance. Immigrants used to come here with nothing but shoelaces and the clothes on their back, so obviously they are going to work the shit jobs. If natives are complaining so much, maybe they should work on entering that > 20 buck an hour job range or salaried job range, because those jobs are completely inaccessible in general to a first generation immigrant, as proven by Ph.D's driving taxicabs or working at McDonalds. Natives have nothing to fear: unless there is too much immigration, which isn't true because in many first world nations the only population growth is from immigrants.

A person who complains about immigrants taking jobs is probably a fucking failure in life.

[Covenant]

I'll come at it from the other side. Nothing is wrong with admission by qualification, but in such a case all the migrant workers would be legal immigrants anyway, since we need the labor--that or we need to ship kids from burnt out urban ghettos in Detroit to pick strawberries in California. I think controlled immigration is certainly a soverign right, but you can't punish people for wanting jobs that you're offering them, which is where things are at the moment. Yes, America could do the labor on it's own without all the migrant labor, but it isn't and it's not going to. The immigration policy shouldn't be an ideological tool to make some stupid whitebread hick feel better about himself just because he was born here to parents who got born here, it should indeed benefit a country. And if it's laborers you need, then maybe we should open the gates.

[Flagg]

I'll come at it from the other side. Nothing is wrong with admission by qualification, but in such a case all the migrant workers would be legal immigrants anyway, since we need the labor--that or we need to ship kids from burnt out urban ghettos in Detroit to pick strawberries in California. I think controlled immigration is certainly a soverign right, but you can't punish people for wanting jobs that you're offering them, which is where things are at the moment. Yes, America could do the labor on it's own without all the migrant labor, but it isn't and it's not going to. The immigration policy shouldn't be an ideological tool to make some stupid whitebread hick feel better about himself just because he was born here to parents who got born here, it should indeed benefit a country. And if it's laborers you need, then maybe we should open the gates.

I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who would be perfectly willing to go and pick oranges for $10/hr with benefits. The problem is that that's just not going to happen. Meanwhile you have plenty of illegal immigrants willing to not only pick oranges for less than an American would, they're willing to do it for less than the legal wage. And even if they weren't what are they gonna do? They call job services and their ass gets deported.

The problem isn't illegal immigration, it's companies that are willing to break the law in order to exploit people with no legal status.

[brianeyci]

The funny thing is, those kids from burnt out urban ghettos could get on a train and take those jobs right away: if only the American immigration policy wasn't so restrictive. The prevalence of illegal immigration is precisely due to the fact that legal immigration is so difficult.

Now the counter argument is: make them citizens and they will demand all the benefits of the natives. Make them worker class and there will be an underclass. Hogwash. As I said in my other posts, immigration by definition is losing money, at least in the short term, for long term stability of the country. If too many people are coming in to overburden the healthcare system, let in less legals.

If the restriction is the minimum wage, then consider abolishing the minimum wage yet maintaining health, safety and labor standards. Crack down hard on businesses which hire illegals, but at the same time let in enough legal immigrants to fill the jobs necessary.

This "at the same time" caveat is crucial. If it isn't there, you'll put people out of business. A crackdown on illegals can't happen without increasing legal immigration, perhaps by orders of magnitude.

There can be discussion with the business community about this. And the minimum labor standards can be: maximum 10 hours a day working, 15 minute break every five hours, with a 30 minute lunch and minimum 8 hours in between shifts. Minimum safety and health standards, with massive penalties to crush the corporations and businesses who try and hurt people.

If the concern is these migrants are coming just for a job and have no interest in investing in the country, have them put their children in proper schools with mixed populations, and have them go to American history classes on the weekend for a year or something. Don't shut off the valve because the natives are paranoid about some kind of invasion.

In fact, businesses should be able to go to a website, say they need ten legal guys, and the government finds them for the business. And not just worker's permit bullshit either. Put them on some kind of probation, and if they don't break any laws and they're able to support themselves, swear them in as citizens.

[brianeyci]

I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who would be perfectly willing to go and pick oranges for $10/hr with benefits. The problem is that that's just not going to happen. Meanwhile you have plenty of illegal immigrants willing to not only pick oranges for less than an American would, they're willing to do it for less than the legal wage. And even if they weren't what are they gonna do? They call job services and their ass gets deported.

The problem isn't illegal immigration, it's companies that are willing to break the law in order to exploit people with no legal status.

What comes first, chicken or the egg? Companies exist to make profit, and expecting them to not is treating the symptom, not the cause. The idea that companies can be pressured to be "nationalistic" is completely incompatible with capitalism. The problem is lack of government regulation and enforcement, not the companies themselves. Too strict immigration policy, too lax crackdown on companies which hire illegals, combined have created this problem.

What gives an American an intrinsic right to a ten dollar an hour wage with benefits? You realize that immigrants in the past have worked for pathetic amounts of money, and this will never change.

If the wage is the problem, abolish it, but maintain very high labor standards and crack down on companies which violate labor standards. Meanwhile, create a registry where a company can just go and get some people, whenever they want, with little hassle.

The idea that 100% of the native population has to be hired before letting a single immigrant to do the job doesn't wash. If the natives aren't worth it to the company, the company should easily find someone else. If this means 5 bucks an hour or 1 buck an hour, then so be it. At least they would stay in the country rather than moving their operations abroad.

[Glocksman]

Just two quick points;.

One: this a Spanish V class so Spanish speaking culture and society are part of the lesson plan not just learning the language.

Indeed it is, but there's more than just Mexicans who speak Spanish.
If this is one in a series of cultural activities WRT various Spanish speaking countries and regions, I don't have much of a problem with it.

However if this is the only roleplay project she assigns, then it looks more suspicious.

And lawl at the retards who think that the whole exersize is invalid because it does not address each and every fucking issue with immigration.

It doesn't have to address each and every issue as you could spend an entire semester doing nothing but learning about illegal immigration and its consequences, but it should at least acknowledge that there are other views WRT illegal immigration and that it's not all about empathy for the poor downtrodden illegal immigrant.

As for illegal immigration itself, I'm sure most everyone here knows how I feel.
The ones I've met and talked to at work are mostly decent individuals, and I perfectly understand why they're here. Hell, in their situation I'd probably do the same thing.
But as a group, illegals impose a huge cost on society that not many people recognize exists. From their heavy use of hospital ER's driving many hospitals bankrupt, to the depressant effect that illegals have on blue collar wages, to the costs of educating their children, to dealing with the criminals that are among them, and the fact that many of them use private charitable services (such as food banks), thus depleting the amount available for those here legally, illegal alien labor bears some really heavy costs to society at large.

But since their employers aren't paying anything but a tiny fraction of those costs, it's to the employer's advantage to keep things the way they are.

I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who would be perfectly willing to go and pick oranges for $10/hr with benefits. The problem is that that's just not going to happen. Meanwhile you have plenty of illegal immigrants willing to not only pick oranges for less than an American would, they're willing to do it for less than the legal wage. And even if they weren't what are they gonna do? They call job services and their ass gets deported.

The problem isn't illegal immigration, it's companies that are willing to break the law in order to exploit people with no legal status.

It won't happen as long as the bastards have illegal labor to exploit.
Start by seriously enforcing (and adding heavy criminal penalties) the immigration laws on the employers of illegal labor and I'll bet most of the jobs would dry up as few businesspeople will risk 5 years in PMITA prison in order to save $5/hr on labor.

But like you said It'll never happen regardless of who is in office both parties have a vested interest in screwing over the blue collar worker.

[SirNitram]

But as a group, illegals impose a huge cost on society that not many people recognize exists. From their heavy use of hospital ER's driving many hospitals bankrupt, to the depressant effect that illegals have on blue collar wages, to the costs of educating their children, to dealing with the criminals that are among them, and the fact that many of them use private charitable services (such as food banks), thus depleting the amount available for those here legally, illegal alien labor bears some really heavy costs to society at large.

Could we have some honesty here? Whenever the numbers get crunched, it's net-profit, not net-loss. New argument please.

[Glocksman]

Strayhorn's study has come in for it's share of criticism.
Linky

The Texas study documents that illegal aliens are, indeed, a billion dollar annual net liability to the state's taxpayers - even after accounting for taxes paid, but suggests that Texas benefits from their output in goods and services. This makes sense only if the assumption is that the jobs now being done by illegal aliens would not otherwise be done by legal workers. If not for the availability and exploitation of cheap illegal labor, employers would recruit Americans to do the work at higher wages with little reduction of output and currently unemployed and underemployed Texans would benefit, many rising out of poverty. Welfare and other social services expenditures would be expected to decrease and tax collections increase.

Other mistaken assumptions of the Texas State Comptroller's report include:

* The study's estimate of the illegal alien student population is artificially low, because it assumes that the illegal alien population has grown only at the rate of the state's overall population growth rather than at the much higher rate of estimated growth in the illegal alien population.
* The state chose to estimate the cost of public education only for students who are illegal aliens themselves while ignoring the costs of their siblings who are considered to be U.S. citizens by virtue of having been born in this country.
* The study ignores the flow of an estimated $5.2 billion in earnings in Texas that are sent out of the country in remittances.

If business can't hire cheap illegal labor, they'll hire legal labor and pay more to attract it.

[brianeyci]

Could we have some honesty here? Whenever the numbers get crunched, it's net-profit, not net-loss. New argument please.

I think Glocksman is being honest. At this point I would rather concede the entire cost argument, mainly because this is what the pro-immigration lobby has been doing for years: making graphs and trying to compile statistics to prove their point that immigrants don't cost the government money. And it hasn't worked, mainly because in the short term immigration does cost money and it takes a bit for returns on investment to come. A generation, to be honest.

Glocksman, if hospitals are going bankrupt from illegals, then there's a serious problem with healthcare itself. If your healthcare system wasn't so fucked it wouldn't be a problem in the first place. If they are coming over with serious problems that require hundreds of thousands of dollars in treatment, you don't have to give it to them. But if they are working in your country your country's government should provide them with healthcare, end of story.

Think about opening the flood gates to legal immigration, then all of a sudden the numbers of illegals join the ranks of the legal Americans. And revamp your healthcare to support the workers who are needed, and bail out hospitals if you have to. This fear mongering about the richest nation on earth being unable to afford basic healthcare for its workers, migrant or not, doesn't make any sense. If the problem is regional variations and a deadlocked government, then all I have to say is it's one big clusterfuck and hope Obama gets to the White House.