Female Muslim medics 'disobey hygiene rules'
By Julie Henry and Laura Donnelly
Last Updated: 1:51am GMT 04/02/2008
Muslim medical students are refusing to obey hygiene rules brought in to stop the spread of deadly superbugs, because they say it is against their religion.
Women training in several hospitals in England have raised objections to removing their arm coverings in theatre and to rolling up their sleeves when washing their hands, because it is regarded as immodest in Islam.
tUniversities and NHS trusts fear many more will refuse to co-operate with new Department of Health guidance, introduced this month, which stipulates that all doctors must be "bare below the elbow".
The measure is deemed necessary to stop the spread of infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile, which have killed hundreds.
Minutes of a clinical academics' meeting at Liverpool University revealed that female Muslim students at Alder Hey children's hospital had objected to rolling up their sleeves to wear gowns.
Similar concerns have been raised at Leicester University. Minutes from a medical school committee said that "a number of Muslim females had difficulty in complying with the procedures to roll up sleeves to the elbow for appropriate handwashing".
Sheffield University also reported a case of a Muslim medic who refused to "scrub" as this left her forearms exposed.
Documents from Birmingham University reveal that some students would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms, and warn that it could leave trusts open to legal action.
Hygiene experts said last night that no exceptions should be made on religious grounds.
Dr Mark Enright, professor of microbiology at Imperial College London, said: "To wash your hands properly, and reduce the risks of MRSA and C.difficile, you have to be able to wash the whole area around the wrist.
"I don't think it would be right to make an exemption for people on any grounds. The policy of bare below the elbows has to be applied universally."
Dr Charles Tannock, a Conservative MEP and former hospital consultant, said: "These students are being trained using taxpayers' money and they have a duty of care to their patients not to put their health at risk.
"Perhaps these women should not be choosing medicine as a career if they feel unable to abide by the guidelines that everyone else has to follow."
But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam.
"No practising Muslim woman - doctor, medical student, nurse or patient - should be forced to bare her arms below the elbow," it said.
Dr Majid Katme, the association spokesman, said: "Exposed arms can pick up germs and there is a lot of evidence to suggest skin is safer to the patient if covered. One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows."
There comes a time when we seriously have to consider invalidating certain religions from working in certain fields because this is not just a matter of respecting differences. This is about not following rules that can kill people because you don't want to be immodest. Go be immodest in another profession.
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If they refuse to follow hygiene rules, they should be kicked off the course, no question.
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You say it is your custom to not roll up your sleeves in the presence of men, regardless of reason. Very well. We also have a custom. When medical students disobey hygiene rules, we dismiss them with a failing grade. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.
Feil wrote:You say it is your custom to not roll up your sleeves in the presence of men, regardless of reason. Very well. We also have a custom. When medical students disobey hygiene rules, we dismiss them with a failing grade. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.
It's just a shame that this doesnt involve Napier university, that in a press release from them would kick a great deal of ass.
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There is even a discussion ongoing whether this hazardous behaviour can be tolerated ? Proper procedures should not even be considered to be discussed. I doubt this class is the first to include muslims, what did previous students do ? Not wash or wash without complaint ? Seems someone just wants to cause trouble, and I'm not thinking of the teaching staff.
Feil wrote:You say it is your custom to not roll up your sleeves in the presence of men, regardless of reason. Very well. We also have a custom. When medical students disobey hygiene rules, we dismiss them with a failing grade. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.
Seconded, violations of safety procedures should not be tolerated. A lab supervisor once sent a female student home because she wore high heels.
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wautd wrote:
Dr Majid Katme, the association spokesman, said: "Exposed arms can pick up germs and there is a lot of evidence to suggest skin is safer to the patient if covered. One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows."
Strip his medical license.
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Apparently, it escaped them that a doctor's first priority is to protect the patient and not the other way around. Aren't there guidelines that must be vigoriously enforced?
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Part of what's so ridiculous about this is that some Muslims like to claim that it was Muslim physicians who first recognized the importance of cleanliness in the medical field...
...male Muslim physicians, I guess.
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wautd wrote:
Dr Majid Katme, the association spokesman, said: "Exposed arms can pick up germs and there is a lot of evidence to suggest skin is safer to the patient if covered. One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows."
Particularly brilliant, since they currently have long, sterile gloves that they put on for operations... after they're done scrubbing their arms . Does he think they operate with their bare hands? Of course, what else can you expect from some guy that's also advocating against vaccinations because they are "unclean".
The only correct response to such a refusal is to tell them to get out and not come back unless they can comply with the rules because those rules are in place for a very good, objective reason.
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I wonder at the potential liability exposure for a hospital that would choose to "honor" charming Muslim retrograde bullshit like this.
Patient succumbs to peritonitis, family sues hospital, lawyer sez "hey, can't intrude upon precious religious sentiments of scrub nurses who don't like to wash before surgery..."
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I'm looking at "ban religious practices from certain professions" option with a yet kinder look.
Kick all of those fuckers out, and make their asses roll all the way down Dumbfuck Street.
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wautd wrote:But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam.
Bullshit.
NOWHERE in the Koran does it prescribe this rule - it says that one must dress "modestly" but does not specify in detail.
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NOWHERE in the Koran does it prescribe this rule - it says that one must dress "modestly" but does not specify in detail.
That's just the kicker, now isn't it? Seeing that the Koran is distinctly moored in 7th century Arabic cultural ideas "modestly" means covered up. The debate that I've seen centers around what means "covered up". Does it mean only hands and face exposed, or full on veil?
I'm reminded of those Christian Science nuts who don't believe in getting professional medical treatment because their health is in God's hands, and if He intended for them to live, he'd magically heal them.
Kanastrous wrote:I wonder at the potential liability exposure for a hospital that would choose to "honor" charming Muslim retrograde bullshit like this.
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
"Equal treatment under the law" means just fucking that. Treat them just like anyone else who doesn't want to follow the rules of hygiene; if they don't want to be doctors, then nobody's forcing them to.
Unfortunately, Christian judges have set past precedents for making exceptions to medical procedures due to religious objections, and those precedents might come back to bite them in the ass. It's time for someone to finally grow some balls and contradict those old precedents.
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Whats really bad is from what i understand in cases like this the rules are waved.
If your starving and with nothing to eat the pork and enjoy. If you need to scrub up to save a life and it means exposing your arms roll up your sleeves.
Good lord. They can cross-contaminate victims simply because they don't want to roll up their sleeves? That's beyond idiotic. On the job, they ought to do their jobs. If they don't want to do their jobs, well, there's the door!
Geez, I think I am going to invent myself a religion saying I have the God-given right to ride skateboards, dirtbikes, shopping carts and all-terrain vehicles in the school hallways.
What's that? You won't obey basic sanitation protocol and you want to be a medical practitioner? That's too bad. You could have made something of it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
