CO2 output must cease altogether, studies warn

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The Spartan
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CO2 output must cease altogether, studies warn

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The Link.
MSNBC.com wrote:Studies: CO2 output must cease altogether
Research points to years of warming even with ambitious emission cuts
By Juliet Eilperin
The Washington Post
updated 12:35 a.m. CT, Mon., March. 10, 2008

The task of cutting greenhouse gas emissions enough to avert a dangerous rise in global temperatures may be far more difficult than previous research suggested, say scientists who have just published studies indicating that it would require the world to cease carbon emissions altogether within a matter of decades.

Their findings, published in separate journals over the past few weeks, suggest that both industrialized and developing nations must wean themselves off fossil fuels by as early as mid-century in order to prevent warming that could change precipitation patterns and dry up sources of water worldwide.

Using advanced computer models to factor in deep-sea warming and other aspects of the carbon cycle that naturally creates and removes carbon dioxide (CO2), the scientists, from countries including the United States, Canada and Germany, are delivering a simple message: The world must bring carbon emissions down to near zero to keep temperatures from rising further.

"The question is, what if we don't want the Earth to warm anymore?" asked Carnegie Institution senior scientist Ken Caldeira, co-author of a paper published last week in the journal Geophysical Research Letters. "The answer implies a much more radical change to our energy system than people are thinking about."

Emissions continue to rise
Although many nations have been pledging steps to curb emissions for nearly a decade, the world's output of carbon from human activities totals about 10 billion tons a year and has been steadily rising.

For now, at least, a goal of zero emissions appears well beyond the reach of politicians here and abroad. U.S. leaders are just beginning to grapple with setting any mandatory limit on greenhouse gases. The Senate is poised to vote in June on legislation that would reduce U.S. emissions by 70 percent by 2050; the two Democratic senators running for president, Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) and Barack Obama (Ill.), back an 80 percent cut. The Republican presidential nominee, Sen. John McCain (Ariz.), supports a 60 percent reduction by mid-century.

Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.), who is shepherding climate legislation through the Senate as chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee, said the new findings "make it clear we must act now to address global warming."

"It won't be easy, given the makeup of the Senate, but the science is compelling," she said. "It is hard for me to see how my colleagues can duck this issue and live with themselves."

James L. Connaughton, who chairs the White House Council on Environmental Quality, offered a more guarded reaction, saying the idea that "ultimately you need to get to net-zero emissions" is "something we've heard before." When it comes to tackling such a daunting environmental and technological problem, he added: "We've done this kind of thing before. We will do it again. It will just take a sufficient amount of time."

Warming may continue despite CO2 cuts
Until now, scientists and policymakers have generally described the problem in terms of halting the buildup of carbon in the atmosphere. The United Nations' Framework Convention on Climate Change framed the question that way two decades ago, and many experts talk of limiting CO2 concentrations to 450 parts per million (ppm).

But Caldeira and Oregon State University professor Andreas Schmittner now argue that it makes more sense to focus on a temperature threshold as a better marker of when the planet will experience severe climate disruptions. The Earth has already warmed by 0.76 degrees Celsius (nearly 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit) above pre-industrial levels. Most scientists warn that a temperature rise of 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) could have serious consequences.

Schmittner, lead author of a Feb. 14 article in the journal Global Biogeochemical Cycles, said his modeling indicates that if global emissions continue on a "business as usual" path for the rest of the century, the Earth will warm by 7.2 degrees Fahrenheit by 2100. If emissions do not drop to zero until 2300, he calculated, the temperature rise at that point would be more than 15 degrees Fahrenheit.

"This is tremendous," Schmittner said. "I was struck by the fact that the warming continues much longer even after emissions have declined. . . . Our actions right now will have consequences for many, many generations. Not just for a hundred years, but thousands of years."


While natural cycles remove roughly half of human-emitted carbon dioxide from the atmosphere within a hundred years, a significant portion persists for thousands of years. Some of this carbon triggers deep-sea warming, which keeps raising the global average temperature even after emissions halt.

Researchers have predicted for a long time that warming will persist even after the world's carbon emissions start to fall and that countries will have to dramatically curb their carbon output in order to avert severe climate change. Last year's report of the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said industrialized nations would have to cut emissions 80 to 95 percent by 2050 to limit CO2 concentrations to the 450 ppm goal, and the world as a whole would have to reduce emissions by 50 to 80 percent.

Glimpse into the distant future
European Union Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas, in Washington last week for meetings with administration officials, said he and his colleagues are operating on the assumption that developed nations must cut emissions 60 to 80 percent by mid-century, with an overall global reduction of 50 percent. "If that is not enough, common sense is that we would not let the planet be destroyed," he said.

The two new studies outline the challenge in greater detail, and on a longer time scale, than many earlier studies. Schmittner's study, for example, projects how the Earth will warm for the next 2,000 years.

But some climate researchers who back major greenhouse gas reductions said it is unrealistic to expect policymakers to think in terms of such vast time scales.

"People aren't reducing emissions at all, let alone debating whether 88 percent or 99 percent is sufficient," said Gavin A. Schmidt, of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. "It's like you're starting off on a road trip from New York to California, and before you even start, you're arguing about where you're going to park at the end."

Brian O'Neill of the National Center for Atmospheric Research emphasized that some uncertainties surround the strength of the natural carbon cycle and the dynamics of ocean warming, which in turn would affect the accuracy of Caldeira's modeling. "Neither of these are known precisely," he said.

Although computer models used by scientists to project changes in the climate have become increasingly powerful, scientists acknowledge that no model is a perfect reflection of the complex dynamics involved and how they will evolve with time.

Still, O'Neill said the modeling "helps clarify thinking about long-term policy goals. If we want to reduce warming to a certain level, there's a fixed amount of carbon we can put into the atmosphere. After that, we can't emit any more, at all."

Caldeira and his colleague, H. Damon Matthews, a geography professor at Concordia University in Montreal, emphasized this point in their paper, concluding that "each unit of CO2 emissions must be viewed as leading to quantifiable and essentially permanent climate change on centennial timescales."

Steve Gardiner, a philosophy professor at the University of Washington who studies climate change, said the studies highlight that the argument over global warming "is a classic inter-generational debate, where the short-term benefits of emitting carbon accrue mainly to us and where the dangers of them are largely put off until future generations."

When it comes to deciding how drastically to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, O'Neill said, "in the end, this is a value judgment, it's not a scientific question." The idea of shifting to a carbon-free society, he added, "appears to be technically feasible. The question is whether it's politically feasible or economically feasible."
So much for stopping Global Warming.

Maybe we should just make a big ass ice cube and drop it in the tropics of one of the oceans...
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Post by Turin »

European Union Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas, in Washington last week for meetings with administration officials, said he and his colleagues are operating on the assumption that developed nations must cut emissions 60 to 80 percent by mid-century, with an overall global reduction of 50 percent. "If that is not enough, common sense is that we would not let the planet be destroyed," he said.

While I'm pretty sure the world will be just fine without us, I wish I had this guy's confidence in humanity's common sense.
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Post by Broomstick »

Wake up and smell the coffee - we've reached the point of no return. Really. There's no way in hell you're going to get 6 billion people to cooperate with the drastic curtailment of energy use required. Not. Going. To. Happen.

Truth is, no only will the world continue to exist after global warming, the human race will continue, too. We might well lose some other species, though, like polar bears and penguins. And a few cities.

Canada, though, keeps looking better all the time.
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Post by Aaron »

You guys can have Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Don't mind the bugs, there only around eight months out of the year.
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Post by fnord »

I suppose a start could be made by tackling underground coal fires - as far as I know, they just sit there and burn, not doing anything economically useful (like boiling water to spin a turbine).
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Actually, cutting all human CO2 emissions would solve the problem for us very effectively, since it would mean every single person on the planet would commit suicide. No people, no problem. :)
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Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:Wake up and smell the coffee - we've reached the point of no return. Really. There's no way in hell you're going to get 6 billion people to cooperate with the drastic curtailment of energy use required. Not. Going. To. Happen.

Truth is, no only will the world continue to exist after global warming, the human race will continue, too. We might well lose some other species, though, like polar bears and penguins. And a few cities.

Canada, though, keeps looking better all the time.
We're losing thousands of species every year already. The world is experiencing a rate of species die-off that normally occurs only after some sort of catastrophic event.

Yes, we will survive as a species, but I think we can look forward to some of the world's most populous regions descending into anarchy, with increasing numbers of genocidal actions as people fight over dwindling resources in drought-ridden areas as the water goes away.
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Post by wautd »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Actually, cutting all human CO2 emissions would solve the problem for us very effectively, since it would mean every single person on the planet would commit suicide. No people, no problem. :)
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Post by Crom »

Darth Wong wrote:We're losing thousands of species every year already. The world is experiencing a rate of species die-off that normally occurs only after some sort of catastrophic event.

Yes, we will survive as a species, but I think we can look forward to some of the world's most populous regions descending into anarchy, with increasing numbers of genocidal actions as people fight over dwindling resources in drought-ridden areas as the water goes away.
How much time do we have before all that starts happening in earnest? I can't help thinking of the future without a feeling of crushing despair.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Crom wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:We're losing thousands of species every year already. The world is experiencing a rate of species die-off that normally occurs only after some sort of catastrophic event.

Yes, we will survive as a species, but I think we can look forward to some of the world's most populous regions descending into anarchy, with increasing numbers of genocidal actions as people fight over dwindling resources in drought-ridden areas as the water goes away.
How much time do we have before all that starts happening in earnest? I can't help thinking of the future without a feeling of crushing despair.
One could argue that it's already starting to happen now. Luckily for you, it might not be that bad if you're far from the action, but it's certainly not something to feel good about.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

As a person from a Third World nation that has the potential to turn into a shithole, I am frightened of this. I am taking Nursing for college and will hopefully be in a position to immigrate for greener pastures in a couple of years.

With the American economy tanking, the biggest and most viable "greener grassy field" has withered and died. Where should I go next if I don't want to get Hotel Rwanda'd?
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Post by Resinence »

Well, pretty much everywhere is going to get fucked up somehow, just stay away from China and India I guess. And the likelihood of anyone reading this article and doing anything at all is slim to nil. I love how people have ignored these issues for decades, thanks for fucking everything up, assholes. I think I'll be somewhat glad to see the "I'll be dead before then, fuck the younger generations!" attitude come back to bite these people in the ass, too bad everyone else has to pay for their mistakes as well.
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Post by Dartzap »

Well, all islands are fethed six ways from sunday, so I guess its time to colonise Ben Nevis and Snowdonia!

By this time in a hundred years, I would be living in the lands of Atlantis! :lol:
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Post by Broomstick »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:With the American economy tanking, the biggest and most viable "greener grassy field" has withered and died. Where should I go next if I don't want to get Hotel Rwanda'd?
As a good rule of thumb, I'd say somewhere medium to populated that isn't in a desert - in other words, somewhere where it would be practical to grow some of your food and maybe keep some rabbits or chickens, with access to safe water. Also, towards the poles. From the human standpoint the climate will improve in the higher latitudes.
Darth Wong wrote:We're losing thousands of species every year already. The world is experiencing a rate of species die-off that normally occurs only after some sort of catastrophic event.
True. The modern world qualifies as a mass extinction event, and would still be such even if we stopped losing species immediately.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

We better hope Hansen isn't also right about the positive feedback loops, else you can forget the rather conservative IPCC scenarios.
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Post by Broomstick »

Regrettably, the notion of positive feedback loops does make a lot of sense....
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Post by ArmorPierce »

what happened to that idea of shooting up chemicals in the air that would counter the global warming aspects of CO2 in the atmosphere?
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Post by The Spartan »

ArmorPierce wrote:what happened to that idea of shooting up chemicals in the air that would counter the global warming aspects of CO2 in the atmosphere?
Was that ever a serious consideration? I had the impression that it was just an idea they came up with while brainstorming and that got more press than it was really meant to.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
With the American economy tanking, the biggest and most viable "greener grassy field" has withered and died. Where should I go next if I don't want to get Hotel Rwanda'd?
To the country that holds 20% of the entire worlds fresh water supply. And the second largest country in the world. Also extremely low population per square mile. Loads of farmland and even more opening up when the temperature rises.

God's country. Canada. All races, creeds and orientations welcome with minimum bigotry. :D

I actually am a lucky bastard for being born in this country. Canada is going to have HUGE pressure on it to let in high amounts of immigration. The government better be careful though because they have already soured some people's attitudes on helping others when they have been more generous to people 'off the boat' then their own citizens. Especially after the exorbitant amount of taxes we generally pay.
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Post by DaveJB »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Actually, cutting all human CO2 emissions would solve the problem for us very effectively, since it would mean every single person on the planet would commit suicide. No people, no problem. :)
There was someone here on the TV a while ago saying that the human race probably won't survive much longer due to climate change, peak oil and/or the likelihood of a nuclear war, and that the upstanding thing to do would be for every single human to commit suicide before we can make things much worse for the other species on the planet.

I can't quite remember what his answer was when they asked why he hadn't killed himself - something like "it would achieve nothing if I ended my life and no-one else followed."
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Post by Darth Wong »

Justforfun000 wrote:I actually am a lucky bastard for being born in this country. Canada is going to have HUGE pressure on it to let in high amounts of immigration. The government better be careful though because they have already soured some people's attitudes on helping others when they have been more generous to people 'off the boat' then their own citizens. Especially after the exorbitant amount of taxes we generally pay.
They can't just open up the floodgates. A quota system or something similar will be necessary.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

They can't just open up the floodgates. A quota system or something similar will be necessary.
Definitely. They have to be careful they don't go overboard on the refugee issue. There is only so much one country can do and it sounds like there are going to be a LOT of refugees...
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Post by Crom »

Darth Wong wrote:One could argue that it's already starting to happen now. Luckily for you, it might not be that bad if you're far from the action, but it's certainly not something to feel good about.
Well, I'm far from most of the action but that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me in the future. If we're talking a decade till the shit hits the fans, I'm not sure if I want to try and raise a family.
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Post by DrMckay »

I'm just wondering if and when California and the rest of the wester states will secede and form the Democratic Republic of Pacifica, or somesuch.

:wink:

Perhaps with President-for life Schwarzenegger...

Hey, we are between 10 and seventh in the world's economies, and contribute 13% of the United States' GDP...
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