American deaths on Bush's watch

[Galvatron]

Is it fair to count not only the war because he started it, but also Katrina and 9/11 because of his ineptitude? If so, what does that raise his (American) body count to?

[The Spartan]

Arguably so. It might difficult for many victims, in the case of Katrina, to say which were the fault of the storm (and various administrations not fixing the goddamn levees), the fault of the current administration and the fault of state and local government, etc.

In the case of 9/11 you might also have to factor in blame on previous administrations but nonetheless I would lay the fault almost entirely at his feet.

That all said, if you give him complete culpability then the count is around 8000, if I'm not mistaken.

[Enforcer Talen]

If we want to play that game, we adding veteran suicides? I was reading earlier today that might have outdone deaths in the warzone by now.

[The Spartan]

If we want to play that game, we adding veteran suicides? I was reading earlier today that might have outdone deaths in the warzone by now.

I would argue that we should (or rather, over and above the "normal" rate). And if you're right and the suicides are that high then the count jumps to 12000 or more.

[Galvatron]

In the case of 9/11 you might also have to factor in blame on previous administrations but nonetheless I would lay the fault almost entirely at his feet.

I'd say the President's Daily Brief entitled "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US" that he was given in August 2001 lays the blame squarely at his feet. After all, he more time to prepare for 9/11 than he did for Katrina.

[Beowulf]

Was the article you read anything similar to this?

Post-War Suicides May Exceed Combat Deaths, U.S. Says (Update1)

By Avram Goldstein

May 5 (Bloomberg) -- The number of suicides among veterans of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan may exceed the combat death toll because of inadequate mental health care, the U.S. government's top psychiatric researcher said.

Community mental health centers, hobbled by financial limits, haven't provided enough scientifically sound care, especially in rural areas, said Thomas Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health in Bethesda, Maryland. He briefed reporters today at the American Psychiatric Association's annual meeting in Washington.

Insel echoed a Rand Corporation study published last month that found about 20 percent of returning U.S. soldiers have post- traumatic stress disorder or depression, and only half of them receive treatment. About 1.6 million U.S. troops have fought in the two wars since October 2001, the report said. About 4,560 soldiers had died in the conflicts as of today, the Defense Department reported on its Web site.

Based on those figures and established suicide rates for similar patients who commonly develop substance abuse and other complications of post-traumatic stress disorder, ``it's quite possible that the suicides and psychiatric mortality of this war could trump the combat deaths,'' Insel said.

Post-traumatic stress disorder, known as PTSD, is the failure to cope after a major shock, such as an auto accident, a rape or combat, Insel said. PTSD may remain dormant for months or years before it surfaces, and in about 10 percent of cases people never recover, he said.

Difficult to Predict

``We don't yet know how to predict who is going to be the person to be most concerned about,'' Insel said.

The Pentagon didn't dispute Insel's remark.

``The department takes the issue of suicide very seriously, and one suicide is too many,'' said spokeswoman Cynthia Smith in an e-mail.

The department has expanded efforts to encourage soldiers and veterans not to feel stigmatized if they seek mental health treatment, Smith said.

Soldiers who'd been exposed to combat trauma were the most likely to suffer from depression or PTSD, the Rand report said. About 53 percent of soldiers with those conditions sought treatment during the past year. Half of those who got care were judged by Rand researchers to have received inadequate treatment.

Failure to adequately treat the mental and neurological problems of returning soldiers can cause a chain of negative events in the lives of affected veterans, the researchers said. About 300,000 soldiers suffer from depression or PTSD, the report said.

Treatment Options

Researchers aren't sure whether it's appropriate to treat such patients with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, a class of medications that include Prozac, and other anti- depressants, Insel said. His institute is examining that question and novel treatments for PTSD, including using so-called virtual reality technology.

The psychiatric association reported last week that a survey of 191 military members and their spouses found 32 percent said their duty hurt their mental health, and six in 10 believed seeking treatment would damage their careers.

More than 15,000 psychiatrists are attending the professional group's meeting.

[Enforcer Talen]

Yep, thats the one. (Or a variant thereof)

[Darth Wong]

Of course, we're only talking about violent deaths here. One could make the case that Bush's economic policies have caused massive damage to America's impoverished lower class, and ... oops! They also have a sky-high infant mortality rate, not to mention worse survivability in case of disease than rich people.

Of course, it would take a rather detailed study to examine the effect of Bush's "fuck the poor" policies on premature deaths in the lower classes, because they're sort of a forgotten people. Nobody really cares when they die or their children die, as long as they appear to die of "natural causes" rather than violence. Actually, nobody really cares even if they die of violence.

[Elfdart]

The tally so far is around 8000 if you add up Katrina, 9/11 and the Iraq War.

[Galvatron]

If he hits 10,000 he gets his Corellian bloodstripes.

[dragon]

Do you think he could be charged with war crimes for the tens if not hundreds of thousand dead Iraqis that he caused as there was no need for us to go into Iraq. Especially since the evidence shows that there was no WMDs' And the intelligence community told him that repeatedly.

[Wanderer]

Do you think he could be charged with war crimes for the tens if not hundreds of thousand dead Iraqis that he caused as there was no need for us to go into Iraq. Especially since the evidence shows that there was no WMDs' And the intelligence community told him that repeatedly.

Most definitely if someone with Balls is willing to arrest and try him and his entire Administration.

[Mr. Coffee]

Just out of curiosity, which president has the record for most Americans dead on their watch? I'm thinking it's Lincoln, but I'm not sure.

[Enforcer Talen]

Lincoln, most likely followed by FDR.

[The Spartan]

In the case of 9/11 you might also have to factor in blame on previous administrations but nonetheless I would lay the fault almost entirely at his feet.

I'd say the President's Daily Brief entitled "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US" that he was given in August 2001 lays the blame squarely at his feet. After all, he more time to prepare for 9/11 than he did for Katrina.

One might be able to argue that past administrations share some of the blame. Though Captain Chucklefuck should hang his head in shame over how out of his way he went to ignore the threat in order to wank to Iraq.

You know what? Fuck it. It's his goddamn fault. He's the one with the hard-on for Iraq since before getting into office and it's him that ignored warnings about Bin Laden in order to indulge his masturbatory fantasies about Hussein. On top of that, he's responsible for letting the rat faced bastard get away. tWat can burn in hell for all I care.

In all the hullaballoo with the election I had forgotten just how much I hate the little fuck. Now you got me thinking about him again and angried up the blood.

Mr. Coffee, I think you're right. Though it might have been Wilson with during the Flu Pandemic. I still lean towards Lincoln though. That said, I would hardly lay the blame at his feet. Certainly not the way I would blame Chimpus Caesar, The Emperor Who Would Be Clothed.

[Mr. Coffee]

Lincoln, most likely followed by FDR.

That's what I figured. I got curious and looked over on wiki and noticed that Iraq is the seventh costliest war we've been in terms of combat deaths and thenth in total deaths. First place for combat deaths goes to WWII followed by the Civil War, and total deaths goes the reverse.

Not saying that makes Iraq any less of a free range goatfuck or Bush the head Goat Herd, but it does kinda put shit in perspective.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Of course, we're only talking about violent deaths here. One could make the case that Bush's economic policies have caused massive damage to America's impoverished lower class, and ... oops! They also have a sky-high infant mortality rate, not to mention worse survivability in case of disease than rich people.

Of course, it would take a rather detailed study to examine the effect of Bush's "fuck the poor" policies on premature deaths in the lower classes, because they're sort of a forgotten people. Nobody really cares when they die or their children die, as long as they appear to die of "natural causes" rather than violence. Actually, nobody really cares even if they die of violence.

Couple that with highly perverse social policies like the Drug War, wholesale dismantling of all safety nets in sight, fucking up everyone's diets with floods of cheap junk food, privatization and monetization of vital state functions, anti-science crusades, and abstinence-only sex ed, I have no reason to discount the possibility Bush has a hand in a hundred thousand American dead.

[K. A. Pital]

Couple that with highly perverse social policies like the Drug War

Indeed. That shit resulted in people being thrown in jail for nonviolent crimes, in numbers that would maek Stalin blush, and god knows how many of them died by now of prison violence.

[Beowulf]

Yep, thats the one. (Or a variant thereof)

Well, d'ooh. Welcome to the magic of bad statistics. If the 1.6 million troops who have been to Iraq or Afghanistan during this war have exactly the same rate of suicide as the general population for the rest of their lives - more of them will die than died in the war. The national rate of suicide in 2005 for ages 15+ was 13.14/100000. Assume that the average age of the soldiers is 30, this gives them ~40 years of exposure to the risk of suicide - so 1.6 million * 13.14/100,000 * 40 years = 8,409 suicides. The issue is that the rate of combat deaths is so low that by comparison to other low-probability events - they seem remarkably high.

Men apparently have a 1:34 lifetime chance of dying of prostate cancer (it's dropping now, thankfully); that means some 40,000 of the returning troops will probably die of prostate cancer. If you look at the CDC's 'cause of death by age' table, suicide ranks 11th for all ages - and it's doubtless lower for veterans who have a lower suicide rate than the average population. The article suggests that we should spend more on counseling - and we doubtless should. But shouldn't we balance that consideration against the consequences for our veterans of - say - better prostate cancer screening?

So, no shit is the death toll from suicides going to be higher than combat deaths. Is it actually going to be higher than the normal suicide rate for a population of the same demographic? *shrug*

[Darth Wong]

I don't see why you should directly compare death rates over a 5 year period to death rates over a 40 year period. Also, speaking for myself, if you gave me the choice between dying of an IED two weeks from now and dying of prostate cancer 30 years from now, I'd take door #2. You can't really equate the two.

[Beowulf]

Right. But the argument is that more will die from suicide (eventually) than combat. Which is of course true. Veterans would have to have a suicide rate far lower than the average population for that to be the case.

[Flagg]

You guys are forgetting the 'civilian' contratcors that have been killed. Of course, we don't actually have numbers for them...