Hillary Clinton and Sexism

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Hillary Clinton and Sexism

Post by UCBooties »

A lot of these articles have been popping up today. We saw some of this coming last week with the "sweetie" flap but it seems to have hit full steam today.

The Washington Post
The Sisters are Steamed

By Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 20, 2008; 9:06 AM



Women are pretty ticked off these days.

That's the clear message emerging from the latest round of media post-mortems on Hillary Clinton's losing candidacy, which journalists now frame as a fait accompli. (And maybe there's something to that, with Politico reporting that "Hillary Clinton's former campaign manager and confidante, Patti Solis Doyle, and Senator Barack Obama's top advisor have informally discussed the former Clintonite's going to work for the Obama campaign in the general election." Et tu, Patti?)

Numerous women -- journalists themselves and those interviewed by journalists -- believe the former first lady has gotten a raw deal, especially from the media. It's no accident that Hillary's positive ad in Oregon takes a swipe at Tim Russert, Chris Matthews and George Stephanopoulos--all men, last time I checked, and one of them her former White House colleague.

On an emotional level, it's easy to understand why many female voters feel they're been robbed. For the first time in their lifetimes, they could see one of their own occupying the Oval Office. And, in the space of a few weeks, that dream began to evaporate.

Had the contest gone the other way, certainly many African American voters would have felt they had been deprived of a historic chance to elect the first black president.

But there is a certain degree of identity politics in this narrative, one that the media haven't been shy about pushing this season. Should all women vote for Hillary because she's a woman, and assume that men who oppose her are sexist (and women who back Obama are traitors)? Should all African Americans support Obama because of his race and assume that whites who vote against him are racist? Doesn't that reduce both candidates to one-dimensional symbols and ignore the substance of what they have to say or how they would govern?

Somewhere in Hillary's inevitability phase, the trailblazing nature of her effort got lost. She became the establishment candidate, the return-to-the-'90s candidate, and the wow factor--which has always surrounded Obama--simply faded. (There are 16 female senators; Obama is the only black member of the Senate, and only the third African American since Reconstruction to serve in that body. But still, all of the 43 presidents have been--what's the word?--men.)

Look, I don't have any problem with women and blacks supporting their own, just as generations of Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Hispanics and Jews have tended to do. It's why Michael Dukakis was able to raise a lot of money from Greeks and Mitt Romney from Mormons. But there has to be more involved in picking a president. Or does there?

The NYT frames it this way:

"Mrs. Clinton's all-but-certain defeat brings with it a reckoning about what her run represents for women: a historic if incomplete triumph or a depressing reminder of why few pursue high political office in the first place.

"The answers have immediate political implications. If many of Mrs. Clinton's legions of female supporters believe she was undone even in part by gender discrimination, how eagerly will they embrace Senator Barack Obama, the man who beat her?"

The WP is on the same page:

"A Democratic race that a couple of months ago was celebrated as a march toward history -- the chance to nominate the nation's first woman or African American as a major-party candidate -- threatens to leave lingering bitterness, especially among Clinton supporters, whose candidate is running out of ways to win.

"Some women, like [Kathleen] Cowley, complain that Clinton has been disrespected and mistreated by the media and the political establishment. Many see Obama as equally condescending, dismissing Clinton's foreign policy role as first lady, pulling out her chair for her at debates and suggesting offhand during one debate that she was 'likable enough.'

" 'The sexist crap that comes out of people's mouths is really scary to me,' said Amilyn Lanning, 38, a Zionsville, Pa., voter who supported Clinton in last month's primary. 'There's a lot of the b-word being thrown about, even in jest by comedians. There's a lot of comments made about her pantsuits, and the way she dresses. There's a viciousness.' "

At HuffPost, Nina Burleigh has had enough:

"Whenever I start to think about the competing victimhood claims between blacks and women, I think about those guys. The fact is, for all the 'glass ceiling' and sexual harassment crap I endured, those guys started off a long ways behind where I was. Like others (including Erica Jong, under attack on this page right now for referring to Obama as a boy) I think Obama looks boyish. And by that I mean young - not 'bwah!' With his infectious grin and stick-out ears, he looks like a kid, and that's a good thing and a bad thing.

"Like many women, I feel the visceral draw to vote for a female. The nasty sexist crap Clinton has had to endure only makes me want to support her, even though I don't even like her, and I don't think she's a good leader. She doesn't have that warm, follow-me, sun-god quality that leaders in a democracy must have. In politics personality does matter, and it doesn't matter how many disastrous frat boys we elect, that'll never change . . . Calling female reporters 'sweetie' is not -- ahem -- a step in the right direction."

Columnist Marie Cocco is looking forward to the campaign's end:

"I will not miss seeing advertisements for T-shirts that bear the slogan 'Bros before Hos.' The shirts depict Barack Obama (the Bro) and Hillary Clinton (the Ho) and they are widely sold on the Internet.

"I will not miss walking past airport concessions selling the Hillary Nutcracker, a device in which a pantsuit-clad Clinton doll opens her legs to reveal stainless steel thighs that, well, bust nuts. I won't miss television and newspaper stories that make light of the novelty item.

"I won't miss episodes like the one in which the liberal radio personality Randi Rhodes called Clinton a 'big [expletive] whore' . . .

"I won't miss Citizens United Not Timid (no acronym, please), an anti-Clinton group founded by Republican guru Roger Stone . . .

"I won't miss political commentators (including National Public Radio political editor Ken Rudin and Andrew Sullivan, the columnist and blogger) who compare Clinton to the Glenn Close character in the movie 'Fatal Attraction.' . . . The airwaves will at last be free of comments that liken Clinton to a 'she-devil' (Chris Matthews on MSNBC, who helpfully supplied an on-screen mockup of Clinton sprouting horns). Or those who offer that she's 'looking like everyone's first wife standing outside a probate court' (Mike Barnicle, also on MSNBC)."

But there'll be another woman making a strong White House run, right? Not according to this Times Week in Review piece: "Asked to name a potential first woman as president, though, even the shrewdest political strategists said they couldn't think of anyone."

The media, meanwhile, are largely adopting the Obama outlook about today's contests in Kentucky and Oregon:

"By day's end," says the L.A. Times, "Obama expects to have locked up a majority of the pledged delegates to the party's national convention. Though not assuring Obama of the nomination in August, the achievement would signal that victory is near in his hard-fought battle with Hillary Rodham Clinton."

But one person isn't buying that, says the Boston Globe:

"Clinton, who ushered in her historic campaign 16 months ago on the slogan, 'I'm in it to win it,' insisted yesterday she was not planning on going anywhere until all the votes were counted in every state and territory. 'This is nowhere near over,' the senator from New York said at a rally in Kentucky."

Of course, it's been apparent for weeks that Obama would finish ahead in pledged delegates, so making a semi-declaration of victory is an interesting maneuver on his part.

Another hot issue is Obama, on "GMA," telling critics to lay off his wife, Michelle, after a Tennessee GOP Web ad that challenges her first-time-I'm proud-of-my-country remark. (Here's the video.) Uh-uh, says Hot Air's Ed Morrissey:

"If Obama doesn't want his wife to receive criticism, then he shouldn't use her as a surrogate on the campaign trail. Whatever she says on the stump at campaign events is fair game for criticism, just as it has been with Bill Clinton. Obama's camp has unloaded on the former President for statements he made about Hillary's loss in South Carolina and several other incidents in which they believe Bill [Clinton] played the race card to explain Obama's success. Bill's not running for anything this year, but he has made himself a public figure in this primary race, and his statements are also legitimate targets for attack.

"The whininess factor has become a real problem for Obama. Presumably, we'd like a President who doesn't play a perpetual victim on the national stage. What happens when he has to tangle with Congress over policy, or more to the point, when he has to represent America on the world stage? If he can't deal with legitimate political criticism now, what will we get for a response when Obama runs the federal government?"

I do think that campaign-trail statements by Michelle Obama are fair game, since she's in the arena.

The White House launched a campaign against NBC News yesterday over the handling of a presidential interview granted to chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel. This prompted a sternly worded letter from President Bush's counselor Ed Gillespie:

"NBC's selective editing of the President's response is clearly intended to give viewers the impression that he agreed with Engel's characterization of his remarks when he explicitly challenged it. Furthermore, omitted the references to al Qaeda, Hezbollah and Hamas and ignored the clarifying point in the President's follow-up response that U.S. policy is to require Iran to suspend its nuclear enrichment program before coming to the table, not that 'negotiating with Iran is pointless' and amounts to 'appeasement.'

"This deceitful editing to further a media-manufactured storyline is utterly misleading and irresponsible and I hereby request in the interest of fairness and accuracy that the network air the President's responses to both initial questions in full on the two programs that used the excerpts."

NBC News President Steve Capus responded thusly:

"We appreciated President Bush's decision to do the interview with NBC News, and believe Mr. Engel's reporting accurately reflects the discussion with the President.

"Let me assure you, there was no effort to be 'deceptive,' as you suggest. Furthermore, the notion this was, 'deceitful editing to further a media-manufactured storyline,' is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

"In fact, the entire interview was posted Sunday on our website, MSNBC.com, thus allowing everyone to draw their own conclusions about it, the subject matter and our editing. In addition, the entire section in dispute has already aired, unedited, on NBC's Today program and in edited form on other NBC News broadcasts. Editing is a part of journalism."

Remember Vito Fossella, the congressman with the love child? He's been hanging tough, but not for long, says the New York Post:

"Staten Island Rep. Vito Fossella has decided not to seek re-election in the wake of his DWI bust and revelations about his long-term extramarital affair with a woman who bore his child, sources told The Post."

I'm sure his chances would have been great. He could have campaigned with both families and reached more voters!

Plenty of bloggers weighing in on my piece yesterday about how Bill O'Reilly has escalated his feud with Keith Olbermann to attack Jeffrey Immelt, the chief executive of NBC parent General Electric, and how Rupert Murdoch, Roger Ailes, Jeff Zucker, Steve Capus and Immelt have all had talks about a possible cease-fire. Some pointed out that while Fox disputes the notion that Ailes suggested he would could call in the Murdoch-owned New York Post for backup artillery, Page Six just happened to run a grab-bag negative item on him yesterday. Mostly, though, liberals and conservatives are choosing up sides depending on which cable commentator they like.

Blogger Gary Fouse isn't a Keith fan:

"This is clearly a man with issues. Aside from Bush, almost every night, Olbermann engages in attacks against Bill O'Reilly and Fox News. How [unseemly] and unprofessional is that? What is it that O'Reilly did to you in the past, Mr Olbermann? There is clearly bad blood between the two. Why it has to be dragged onto the airwaves is beyond me."

Firedog's Attaturk challenges O'Reilly charge that Immelt and GE are responsible for U.S. deaths in Iraq (because they did business in Iran before a phaseout that is about to end):

"Yeah, because the Bush administration and its enabler, Bill O'Reilly, have absolutely no responsibility of any kind for deaths in Iraq. Heck, Bush even promised Pat Robertson there would be no casualties. And we all know, Bush is never wrong . . . in Bizarro World.

"But O'Reilly's usual level of disconnect is being exceeded in this case because he has the thinnest skin in the world."

Jossip focuses on the liberal blogger who took a video camera to O'Reilly's Long Island home (and was criticized by Olbermann):

"The most worthwhile takeaway from the O'Reilly/News Corp. vs Olbermann/GE feud story isn't the whiny phone calls from Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch to Jeff Zucker and Jeff Immelt complaining about Keith's attacks on Fox News, or the whiny phone calls from Steve Capus to Ailes complaining about O'Reilly's attacks on NBC News correspondent Richard Engel.

"It's that News Corp. wanted an lefty blog's Bill O'Reilly 'ambush video' to be off limits for Olbermann, even though O'Reilly's own use of ambush video cameras drive some of the show's highest ratings and YouTube views."

Radio Equalizer objects to the notion that the New York Post shouldn't weigh in on these matters:

"Does this mean criticism of MSNBC should be off-limits at the Post? Prohibiting discussion of topics based on corporate edicts would be just as alarming as solid evidence the paper is being used as a weapon against an enemy. In the end, Murdoch conspiracy theorists are going to believe what they want and Olbermann's ratings will remain in the tank, despite the support his media friends provide nearly every day."

I'm out of space (virtually speaking), but you may want to check out my report on how the McCain camp pushes back against negative media reports--using words like "scurrilous," "shameful" and "smear job."


While I do believe that this is just the latest kitchen sink attack from the Clinton campaign, it seems to have struck a very large nerve and I thought there might be something to this one. Clinton is being her usual shameless self in crying sexism in the same breath where she denies that race is (or could have been) a factor in the election. (Despite arguing that she should be the nominee because she could capture the "white" vote) Clearly the woman hasn’t a wit of integrity. But I wonder if this might be a case of even a broken clock being right twice a day. Has the media treated Clinton in a manner inherently different because she is a woman? Have they (as I'm beginning to hear many women claim) unfairly dismissed or patronized her during this campaign?

I don't buy her "if you didn't vote for me you're sexist" line any more than I accept that the only reason to vote against Obama is racism. But many of the women I work with are expressing some very real bitterness at the prospect of Hillary losing because they feel it is representative of a general struggle of women to be represented. With the feelings apparently being wide-spread, I'm forced to wonder if there is any validity to them. I'd specifically like to hear from the women on the board. Even if you are an Obama supporter, do you feel that Hillary has been handled differently than other candidates because of her gender?

As for my $0.02

Comments like these make me very angry because I feel they are selfish and short sighted. When I read comments on message boards complaining about Hillary's nomination being stolen, I can't help but think that what they are really saying is "But, it's her turn!" Also, even though I'm guessing it's my own cynicism, I wonder if there is some idea for women in this country that women's rights naturally precede minority rights. Women got the vote first, ie a woman should be President before a Black man etc.

Finally what makes me angriest is that I started out as a Clinton supporter, not a die-hard, but definitely on her side. After she repeatedly failed to adapt to the changed nature of the campaign, ran her campaign into the ground, and utterly failed to keep the civil war that is her campaign advisors in check (not to mention Bill), I decided that she was not qualified to be president. The women who are quoted in these articles and who I work with, make absolutely no attempt to address the way she has comported herself in this campaign. They ignore any valid criticism as sexist and the accusations are starting to be leveled as a matter of routine. I don't involve myself in political discussions at work but now I feel like I can't because I work with so many vocal Clinton supporters who make comments all day that make me feel like a bigot.
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Post by Galvatron »

She's a cunt.
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Post by SirNitram »

Was Hillary the victim of sexism in the media? Well, duh. The sexist bullshit out of the political media is really epic shit. But the question should never be 'Did she get attacked', but 'Did she get attacked more than other Democrats', and the answer is no. No one spent weeks trying to throttle her with a preacher. No one harps for endless periods on ties that barely exist to Weather Underground. At no point was she taken to task for elitism, despite being at least partly as wealthy as John "Do I have eight or nine houses?" McCain.
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Post by General Zod »

SirNitram wrote:Was Hillary the victim of sexism in the media? Well, duh. The sexist bullshit out of the political media is really epic shit. But the question should never be 'Did she get attacked', but 'Did she get attacked more than other Democrats', and the answer is no. No one spent weeks trying to throttle her with a preacher. No one harps for endless periods on ties that barely exist to Weather Underground. At no point was she taken to task for elitism, despite being at least partly as wealthy as John "Do I have eight or nine houses?" McCain.
Nobody's spent months harping on her for not wearing a flag pin on occasion either.
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Post by Galvatron »

My grandmother is so upset about it that she just told me the other day that Rush Limbaugh is telling his listeners to vote for Obama. :roll:

Not wishing to induce a coronary, I let it slide. But she's really fallen for the Muslim Manchurian Candidate smear campaign and actually prefers McCain over "that nigra" at this point.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

A few OP-ED columnists and analysts aside who haven't been getting as much ink or face-time on TV as the punditocracy, nobody has really pointed out how Hillary has bungled her campaign and how this reflects on her capacity to run a presidential administration —insisting upon keeping up the close-horserace pretense— while every smallest gaffe from the Obama camp has been inflated into major pseudo-crises supposedly plaguing his campaign.
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Post by UCBooties »

Patrick Degan wrote:A few OP-ED columnists and analysts aside who haven't been getting as much ink or face-time on TV as the punditocracy, nobody has really pointed out how Hillary has bungled her campaign and how this reflects on her capacity to run a presidential administration —insisting upon keeping up the close-horserace pretense— while every smallest gaffe from the Obama camp has been inflated into major pseudo-crises supposedly plaguing his campaign.
This has largely been my impression as well. So I have to wonder why so many women are taking this personally, so to speak. Being a white male, I don't get it. So is it the because of the impression the media has been giving? Is it personal? Why are so many willing to see the Democratic Party end in flames if they don't get their way?
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Post by SirNitram »

UCBooties wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:A few OP-ED columnists and analysts aside who haven't been getting as much ink or face-time on TV as the punditocracy, nobody has really pointed out how Hillary has bungled her campaign and how this reflects on her capacity to run a presidential administration —insisting upon keeping up the close-horserace pretense— while every smallest gaffe from the Obama camp has been inflated into major pseudo-crises supposedly plaguing his campaign.
This has largely been my impression as well. So I have to wonder why so many women are taking this personally, so to speak. Being a white male, I don't get it. So is it the because of the impression the media has been giving? Is it personal? Why are so many willing to see the Democratic Party end in flames if they don't get their way?
Frankly, I don't find it much more than the same attitude which has GOPers declaring they'll stay home if it's McCain. And I expect it to turn out to be as truthful.
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Post by Galvatron »

UCBooties wrote:This has largely been my impression as well. So I have to wonder why so many women are taking this personally, so to speak. Being a white male, I don't get it. So is it the because of the impression the media has been giving? Is it personal? Why are so many willing to see the Democratic Party end in flames if they don't get their way?
As a cynical man, I'm going to go out on a limb and just say: women.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I'm starting to tune out American politics at this point. I'm just so goddamned sick of all the bullshit.
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You'll keep following it and like it! :wink:
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Galvatron wrote:You'll keep following it and like it! :wink:
Tell you what, I'll start paying attention again when Billary is out of the picture. The mere sight of her makes me nauseous at this point.
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Post by Covenant »

I think that it's a lot of the whole Champion of the Downtrodden thing. Some of the comments you'll see in huge number relate to voting for Hillary to stick it to someone who was sexist to her in the past. A sort of "You didn't want women in the office, here's a woman in the white house!" reaction that is based on spite and revenge rather than policy. And women who might have been okay for Obama before, even with Hillary running, could have been easily turned off by the negative press. Hearing enough nasty statements like the ones mentioned and they start throwing in with Clinton just because they want to support the sisterhood. Like the woman in the article who said she didn't even really like Hillary, but was drawn to her because of the push against her.

It's an inherently greedy sort of vote, a vote for yourself by proxy. Maybe they don't know, but none of us White Males have a secret club that you need to have been the same race/gender as a president to get into, that they'll suddenly have access to. If a woman is elected president it will mean precisely nothing to women around America, just as Obama's victory will mean nothing to the blacks around the country, but it will be a source of pride and it would be some evidence that we've finally overcome a degree of sexism inherent in the system. And the obvious problem is that these people see these elements and say "Yeah, no kidding, it's sexism that's keeping her out so I'm going to continue to vote my spiteful way!" instead of actually looking at her statements, policies and so on and wondering why it is that so many of the democratic soldier-caste have turned against the Big C brand.

I can't imagine that these numbers are so wide because they favor mandates for children in healthcare that would be insured anyway under Obama's plan. I can't imagine so many women are voting for Hillary because they're terrified (foolishly) of the idea of scaling up our nuclear energy program. I can't imagine that we see this gender divide because so many more women prefer a pointless gas tax holiday. It's possible they support this now, but I'd say that's mostly falling in line behind a candidate rather than having been for it from the start. So I can only imagine that the gender divide IS sexism, but from a female perspective. Objectively I do believe that the few differences between Hillary and Obama's platform goes his way, and he's certainly run the more positive campaign, so why not support him? Because they want solidarity with their girl. I'd call that sexist too.

One could argue that if the media hadn't gone rabid on Hillary the way it went rabid on either candidate when they were the Democratic frontrunner, that these women wouldn't have felt the need to unionize and thus would be supporting Obama. I know lots of women who have said just that, but the problem is that it removes the responsibility for judgement on political stuff and puts it squarely in the hands of the media and your viscera. So that's no excuse. A bad candidate, even if there's sexism against her, is still a bad candidate. Plus, I'd say that these are nerves that were raw enough already without the media going at her. She didn't encounter that much abuse before cries of sexism came from her supporters.
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Post by Coyote »

There's a lot of women out there that just feel like it is time to have a female president, and basically they'd be willing to vote for Leni Riefenstahl just because she has ovaries (well, never mind the citizenship thing).
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Post by Galvatron »

Darth Wong wrote:
Galvatron wrote:You'll keep following it and like it! :wink:
Tell you what, I'll start paying attention again when Billary is out of the picture. The mere sight of her makes me nauseous at this point.
The most fascinating part of this whole thing for me will be after Hillary bows out and then has to swallow her pride and endorse Obama between then and the election. You know it's inevitable. And I can't wait to see how my grandmother reacts.
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Post by Glocksman »

Coyote wrote:There's a lot of women out there that just feel like it is time to have a female president, and basically they'd be willing to vote for Leni Riefenstahl just because she has ovaries (well, never mind the citizenship thing).
You aren't lying.

The latest line of bullshit from Susan Estrich
A few years ago, the National Abortion Rights Action League, as it was then called, or NARAL for short, changed its name to NARAL Pro-Choice America. The idea, as I understood it, was to put the emphasis on "choice" rather than "abortion." This week, the organization announced its own choice in the Democratic primary contest, and as best as I can tell, it had absolutely nothing to do with preserving abortion rights and everything to do with their own sense of self-importance. Many women I know who have given generously of their time and efforts and money to the organization over the years are furious, and I don't blame them.

If the issue is choice, and it should be for NARAL Pro-Choice America, there is absolutely no reason to prefer Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton. There's no reason to assume he will stand taller when it comes to legislative efforts to limit abortion rights or outlaw particular procedures. There's no reason to believe that he will appoint judges who will be more sympathetic to Roe v. Wade or more understanding of the plights of the poor, the young, of women from rural areas and those serving in the military (or married to men who are) and those who discover late in their pregnancies that the babies they very much wanted cannot survive. These are, of course, the women who have been targeted successfully by anti-abortion groups in recent years both in the legislatures, state and federal, and in the courts and for whom access to abortion is an abstract promise rather than a constitutionally guaranteed right. These are the women who should be the focus of all the energy, clout and attention a group such as NARAL Pro-Choice America has. That's the very reason the group exists.

But clearly, that wasn't enough for the leadership of NARAL. They wanted to be players in the presidential game. So they made a choice between two candidates who differ not at all on abortion rights, choosing to make themselves look important on a day when, having taken a thumping in West Virginia from precisely the sort of women NARAL should represent, Barack Obama was looking for friends to send a message to Hillary Clinton and the media that West Virginia didn't matter and that it was time for her to exit the race.

"What does NARAL get from Obama?" some of my friends keep asking me.
What could he have promised them that would lead them to turn their back on the first woman to make a serious run for the presidency, not to mention a woman who has stood with women's rights activists throughout her career, fought for health care for women and children, and whose help they desperately will need in future fights, even if, especially if, she ends up after this election, as she was before, as an influential senator? Was all this for a platform plank on abortion? No. We, and by "we," I mean Gloria Steinem, the late Bella Abzug, Eleanor Smeal and me, with some help from Sen. Ted Kennedy (whose team, which I was leading, didn't officially call the vote but encouraged our supporters to go for it), did that in 1980, and it's been there since.

No, this wasn't about platform planks or future jobs, not as far as I can tell. It was about the Obama supporters on the board outnumbering the Clinton backers and forgetting which hats they were wearing, that they were supposed to be putting the organization ahead of their partisan pursuits, and doing what was best for the cause, not their candidate.

Does anyone care that NARAL endorsed Obama? I'm not sure voters in Kentucky or Oregon will care. I'm not sure how many uncommitted superdelegates will care. But I know this: NARAL members who support Hillary, of whom there are many, judging just from my e-mails, care a lot. They won't be supporting NARAL in the future. And if, as I fear, the major battles to come for abortion rights are likely to take place in the Senate, I sure wouldn't want to be the lobbyist from NARAL who is assigned to make sure that Hillary is willing to stand tall. Again. I know she will. But no thanks to them.

To find out more about Susan Estrich and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate website at www.creators.com.

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Shorter version: No matter that both candidates are equally pro-choice, we have to back Hillary! simply because she's a woman, and do this despite Obama's near certainty of capturing the nomination.
She's not outright threatening to support the well-known abortion rights advocate John McCain, but refusing to support Obama in the general election is virtually the same thing.

Looks like Estrich is doing what she accuses NARAL of; putting politics ahead of the organization's goals.

:wanker:
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CmdrWilkens
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Oddly enough I would half expect that after his speech on race in America that Obama could put out an equally truthful and painfully real statment about gender in America and American politics.

It boils down to this:

Were sexist things said about Hillary? Sure, absolutely. There is no doubt in my mind that sexit and gender dismissive comments were and still are being made about Clinton

Were rascist things said about Barack? Sure, absolutely. All one has to do is look back over the past two months of the campaign trail to see it littered with the wreckage of race relations and Obama's place in it.

The problem is that for those who are women, and I get this chatting with my sister all the time so pardon if it comes across porly in translation, it is INCREDIBLY easy to see the sexism directed towards her but, in paticular for white women, equally difficult to see the rascism going the other way. Moreover as a matter of identifying I think one would be hard pressed to find an american woman of the last 30 years who hasn't had some xperience with sexism. In turn this creates sympathy because you can understand and resent the sexism at a very base level.

In turn for the minority communities int he US it is very easy to see the rascism that has pervaded the last 2-3 months (and even before that with the quesitons of whether Obama was "Black" enough). Again it is harder to see the sexism and, agian, it is easy to identify and respond on a very base level to the rascism.

The fault here is that there is no netural referee willing, or able even, to step in and point out that arguing over who got shated the worst by "-isms" won't change anything. We could literally spend months arguing over whether the sexist assualts on Hillary were worse or less than the rascist assaults were on Obama. Unfortunately its ALL a zero sum game. Every rascist and sexist assault is degrading not just to those two individuals but it degrades an already tarnsihed electoral process that, for just a brief moment in January and February, still had a chance to be about the issues and who could be the better President.

I think Obama was right to try and move past rascism, to acknolwedge it exists but focus more so on what remains positive about race relations in this country to try and build a dialouge. however this is tough with both rascism and sexism because of how pervasive and subtle they can be. It si REALLY hard not to get into the blame game. Even when folks are deserving of rebuke doing so with raised voices just turns the issue into a shouting match (witness the last 30 years of US politics) over who said something more offensive. We can say that the racism and sexism in this contest was wrong but once we start laying blame instead of trying to work to prevent it in the future we have already lost and THAT is the sad statement on this campaign.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Susan Estrich wrote:"What does NARAL get from Obama?" some of my friends keep asking me.
What could he have promised them that would lead them to turn their back on the first woman to make a serious run for the presidency, not to mention a woman who has stood with women's rights activists throughout her career, fought for health care for women and children, and whose help they desperately will need in future fights, even if, especially if, she ends up after this election, as she was before, as an influential senator? Was all this for a platform plank on abortion? No. We, and by "we," I mean Gloria Steinem, the late Bella Abzug, Eleanor Smeal and me, with some help from Sen. Ted Kennedy (whose team, which I was leading, didn't officially call the vote but encouraged our supporters to go for it), did that in 1980, and it's been there since.

No, this wasn't about platform planks or future jobs, not as far as I can tell. It was about the Obama supporters on the board outnumbering the Clinton backers and forgetting which hats they were wearing, that they were supposed to be putting the organization ahead of their partisan pursuits, and doing what was best for the cause, not their candidate.
Riiiiiight, Susie. It just CAN'T possibly be due to anybody with more than two braincells to rub together figuring that Obama stands the better chance of winning in November.
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Post by Terralthra »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Susan Estrich wrote:"What does NARAL get from Obama?" some of my friends keep asking me.
What could he have promised them that would lead them to turn their back on the first woman to make a serious run for the presidency, not to mention a woman who has stood with women's rights activists throughout her career, fought for health care for women and children, and whose help they desperately will need in future fights, even if, especially if, she ends up after this election, as she was before, as an influential senator? Was all this for a platform plank on abortion? No. We, and by "we," I mean Gloria Steinem, the late Bella Abzug, Eleanor Smeal and me, with some help from Sen. Ted Kennedy (whose team, which I was leading, didn't officially call the vote but encouraged our supporters to go for it), did that in 1980, and it's been there since.

No, this wasn't about platform planks or future jobs, not as far as I can tell. It was about the Obama supporters on the board outnumbering the Clinton backers and forgetting which hats they were wearing, that they were supposed to be putting the organization ahead of their partisan pursuits, and doing what was best for the cause, not their candidate.
Riiiiiight, Susie. It just CAN'T possibly be due to anybody with more than two braincells to rub together figuring that Obama stands the better chance of winning in November.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

I am saddened, though not surprised, by people's inability to think past the inauguration in January. Nobody ever takes the long view, which is this, Clinton would be a minor disaster of a President. Just look at the way she has run this campaign, gone from the presumptive nominee to can't win short of a coup d'etat; and from a flush in money to $11 million in the hole and digging. Do the women of this country want that? Do they really want future generations to look back upon the first woman president, then roll their eyes and say "what a cunt"?
Darth Wong wrote:Tell you what, I'll start paying attention again when Billary is out of the picture. The mere sight of her makes me nauseous at this point.
I'm starting to feel the same way. It's interesting how one's opinion of a person can affect one's perception of their appearance. As of late, any picture of Hillary Clinton has given me bad vibes, they're all a bit... creepy. This didn't happen before, I suspect it's because I now see her as being power-hungry with no integrity whatsoever.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Adrian Laguna wrote:I suspect it's because I now see her as being power-hungry with no integrity whatsoever.
And I note, that's something coming from someone who quotes Stalin in his sig and has considered using his face as an avatar.
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Post by Galvatron »

Adrian Laguna wrote:Do the women of this country want that?
Yes. Hillary is to dumb women as Bush was to the "I'd have a beer with him" crowd. They relate to her and they think someone just like them is just what this country needs.
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Post by Fire Fly »

People seem to equate equal criticism with warranted criticism; in the former, if one person has more to be critical of than the other, you have to make shit up to give both people equal criticism. In the latter, you criticize things which are noteworthy of the situation, be it the person applying for a job application or making a cake.
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Post by Mr. T »

The ridiculous things about the claims of chauvanism and telling her to "shut up and get out" is that just 4 years ago in 2004 the media declared Howard Dean's campaign over after Iowa even though at that point he had the most pledged delegates. Yet we've been putting up with Hillary and her occasional 1% "victories" for months now.

She's been given break after break after break to the pont where it makes my head want to explode when anyone claims the media has been treating her unfairly due to her womanhood.
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Post by Galvatron »

Mr. T wrote:She's been given break after break after break to the pont where it makes my head want to explode when anyone claims the media has been treating her unfairly due to her womanhood.
I've seen it referred to as "electoral affirmative action."
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