High Court legalizes leaving bruises on your kids

[Cairber]

story

High court says parents can spank kids
By JEFF PARROTT, Tribune Staff Writer
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By Beth Boehne



A parent has the legal right to physically discipline a child, even if doing so leaves bruises, the Indiana Supreme Court has ruled.

The court’s 4-1 opinion, handed down Tuesday, overturns the Marion County trial court conviction of parent Sophia Willis for battery. Willis had whipped her 11-year-old son five to seven times with a belt or electrical cord after she caught him repeatedly lying about having stolen some of her clothing.

Contending that she had legal authority to discipline her son, Willis appealed her conviction. An Indiana Court of Appeals panel had affirmed the lower court’s ruling, while asking the state’s high court for guidance on when a parent crosses the line from permitted discipline to criminal battery.

The Supreme Court reversed, finding that Willis did not cross that line. Her son’s punishment was neither degrading nor disproportionate to the offense, and his bruises were neither "serious harm" nor permanent, the court ruled.

In charting this new territory, the Supreme Court said it was adopting a view contained in the "Restatement of the Law, Torts," a sort of legal textbook from which state courts can seek guidance.

Justice Frank Sullivan, a South Bend native, dissented from the majority opinion. Sullivan wrote that the ruling "increases the quantum of effort that the state will be required to expend in its efforts to protect children from abuse. Particularly given the commitment of time and resources that the legislative and executive branches have devoted to this subject for the last two decades and more, I believe that such a policy change should be made by the legislative and executive branches, not the judiciary."

St. Joseph County Probate Judge Peter Nemeth, who presides over child welfare cases, said Sullivan made a good point, but he thinks the ruling will help clarify the issue for judges. He said he likely would circulate a copy of the ruling to attorneys who represent Child Protective Services.

Nemeth said he believes that corporal punishment is still needed in society, despite it having largely fallen out of favor in recent years. He said he did not foresee the ruling changing much how he rules on child welfare cases involving abuse allegations.

Generally, CPS only substantiates child abuse if a mark or bruise is visible and brings those cases before the judge, but that doesn’t mean the judge will necessarily agree that the parental discipline went too far.

"I suspect that CPS will continue to err on the side of safety of the child, and still bring me the case to decide," Nemeth said. "I think (the opinion) articulates some factors judges already are considering but it’s nice to see it in black and white by the Supreme Court ... and if a case like this goes down the line, they will affirm you rather than reverse you."

I don't agree with spanking; however, I realize many people will still do it. I always felt the "open hand and no bruises" rules talked about by the AAP and most CPS publications at least created some barriers. Apparently not anymore...

[Dark Hellion]

While I don't agree with method that the woman used (a weapon seems excessive against a child of 11 unless he is quite developed and she exceedingly small [and even then seems unnecessary]) there seemingly needs to be some precedent sent that removes the paranoid fear that many parents have of being seen disciplining their kids. I don't think spankings should even be necessary, but I remember as a child that the threats of grounding or time outs had none of the effectiveness that the threat of a spanking had. Even if undelivered, that threat of physical disciplining was enough to get me to stop misbehaving in public.

Note, this won't improve bad parents, who practice bad parenting, let their children run amok or those who are over-strict and wish to indoctrinate their kids into illogical belief systems, but it allows a latitude for effective parents to have a threat that just 15-20 years ago was allowable, but now seems loath to be used, regardless of their children's actions.

I should note that I am not a parent, and those with children, especially Cairber who I respect greatly as a mother, are going to have their own opinions, and for those with children they should refer to those and not the musings of some 23 year old.

[Keevan_Colton]

Read a little closer and put on your fundie filters and you might notice one or two minor details that might explain the ruling and the use of a weapon by the mother....

[Keevan_Colton]

Also, of course, there is the interesting point, does that mean that whipping for petty theft will be upheld as constitutional?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Is it just me, or does it seem odd that an 11 year old is stealing mom's clothes. Something about this stinks of a thinly veiled hate-crime.

In any case that is just my suspicion. As for spanking, I find it very difficult to ever condone it, at least not with a weapon, during late childhood. The little ones might be able to benefit from a proverbial swat on the nose, but coming from the guy was was whipped with a willow branch, spanking with an implement is abuse. Flat out, abuse.

[Darth Wong]

So why is it considered "cruel and unusual punishment" to sentence an adult to a whipping, if you can legally whip a child with electrical cord?

[Keevan_Colton]

Is it just me, or does it seem odd that an 11 year old is stealing mom's clothes. Something about this stinks of a thinly veiled hate-crime.

Bingo. I figure that "not disproportionate to the crime" is fundie style speak for it being right to whip confused kids.

[Keevan_Colton]

So why is it considered "cruel and unusual punishment" to sentence an adult to a whipping, if you can legally whip a child with electrical cord?

Because adults are real people and children are their parents property.

Spare rod, spoil etc....

[Dark Hellion]

To amend my previous position, I do not support or condone that action of the woman. I think she is an overreacting bitch. Her son was most probably cross-dressing, and the fundy bitch beat him. I cannot have anything but the deepest loathing for this.

The only thing I supported was that a court has set a precedent (although poorly set it) that can alleviate the random fear that parents I know have expressed of any physical disciplining of their child in public (even simply pulling them out of a store during a tantrum). I think such precedent could be better set, although it is only necessary because of the dangerously litigious nature of America.

[Glocksman]

I think she is an overreacting bitch. Her son was most probably cross-dressing, and the fundy bitch beat him.

Why does getting angry at him cross dressing make her a Fundie?
Intolerance and stupidity don't require religion. It helps, but it's not required.


To me, the irony here is that by overreacting and whipping him with a belt and cord for his is that she's probably gone a long way towards screwing up his sexual development and creating a future customer for some dominatrix.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Why does getting angry at him cross dressing make her a Fundie?
Intolerance and stupidity don't require religion. It helps, but it's not required.

Given the location and the severity of the beating, I would bet about 5 bucks on it.

[Knife]

Meh, I want my cake and eat it too.

This bitch is a bad parent and I don't like the idea of using 'weapons' against your kids in discipline; however I think some slack in this area is needed considering there are scores of parents who don't discipline their kids from fear of CPS taking them away or an uppity teacher.

My daughter used to react horribly to mosquito bites, made her swell up something fierce. I lived in horror of her teachers asking her where or what did that to her and perhaps not believing her answer.

So why this bitch is a bad parent and I don't condone her use of a power cord to beat her kid, I do think the precedent set here gives some comfort in the law to those parents who try to do right and shit happens. I have a kid who does not respond to any punishment. Time out is a joke to him, he's grounded so much it's meaningless, and I don't spank him so that's out.

But since he's a teen and he storms away while I'm talking to him and a grab him to make him listen, I shouldn't have to worry about CPS coming if in the heat of the moment I grab too hard accidentally and he has limited bruising.

[Death from the Sea]

To amend my previous position, I do not support or condone that action of the woman. I think she is an overreacting bitch. Her son was most probably cross-dressing, and the fundy bitch beat him. I cannot have anything but the deepest loathing for this.

Read the article again, it says that she punished him for lying, not for stealing. The child was lying about the stealing of her clothes. Most parents realize that kids like to play dress up and would tolerate the "stealing" of the clothes. What most parents will not tolerate is their child lying to them.

Depending on the severity of the bruises left, I may or may not have a problem with that ruling. But then again this gets us into the territory of "what is a reasonable bruise?"... and that is very subjective.

[Keevan_Colton]

Alrighty then, whipping for perjury? Any takers?

[Singular Intellect]

My mother seems to have a very good system. We received physical discipline at a very early age, even as toddlers. Nothing severe or really harmful, but if we didn't listen we'd get a whack to let us know she meant it.

It paid off, since in our later years, our mother only had to tell us to behave, because we knew that if we didn't listen, she'd get our attention another way.

I can't say I recall any brusies of any sort from physcial discipline, but that doesn't mean anything. That said though, we had plenty just from being rough and tumble with eachother anyhow.

[Melchior]

My mother seems to have a very good system. We received physical discipline at a very early age, even as toddlers. Nothing severe or really harmful, but if we didn't listen we'd get a whack to let us know she meant it.

"I turned out good" is not a valid argument. And it is still dangerous: among other things hyaline cartilage (prevalent in toddlers) has rather awful mechanical properties, for example CPR is often enough to cause fractures, even in adults..

[Alyrium Denryle]

To amend my previous position, I do not support or condone that action of the woman. I think she is an overreacting bitch. Her son was most probably cross-dressing, and the fundy bitch beat him. I cannot have anything but the deepest loathing for this.

Read the article again, it says that she punished him for lying, not for stealing. The child was lying about the stealing of her clothes. Most parents realize that kids like to play dress up and would tolerate the "stealing" of the clothes. What most parents will not tolerate is their child lying to them.

Depending on the severity of the bruises left, I may or may not have a problem with that ruling. But then again this gets us into the territory of "what is a reasonable bruise?"... and that is very subjective.

And the kid had to lie about it...why?

Point still stands.

[Melchior]

Most parents realize that kids like to play dress up and would tolerate the "stealing" of the clothes. What most parents will not tolerate is their child lying to them.

It still looks extremely petty to me. Especially in since the kid probably lied in an attempt to avoid abuse.

[Darth Wong]

Depending on the severity of the bruises left, I may or may not have a problem with that ruling. But then again this gets us into the territory of "what is a reasonable bruise?"... and that is very subjective.

Why not simply outlaw striking a kid with a closed fist or any kind of object? Honestly, if a slap or a spank isn't enough, the parent is incompetent. My kids listen to me whenever I give an instruction, and I've never had to do anything remotely like that.

And yes, I've seen really bratty kids before, of the sort who are often held up as proof that you need to physically batter your kids. However, their parents usually administer more harsh physical discipline than I do, not less. The problem is that they're arbitrary, inconsistent, and unfair. If you're an incompetent parent, adding more violence won't make you a good one.

It's a lot like dog training. You can't train a dog without being fair and consistent and firm, regardless of the level of violence you employ. In fact, excessive use of violence when training a dog will only make it seriously maladjusted. So why the fuck do we think it will work better on children? You would never see a dog trainer saying "sometimes, you need to whip your dog with an electrical cord", yet I'm seeing morons say exactly that about raising human kids. Pure horseshit.

[Death from the Sea]

To amend my previous position, I do not support or condone that action of the woman. I think she is an overreacting bitch. Her son was most probably cross-dressing, and the fundy bitch beat him. I cannot have anything but the deepest loathing for this.

Read the article again, it says that she punished him for lying, not for stealing. The child was lying about the stealing of her clothes. Most parents realize that kids like to play dress up and would tolerate the "stealing" of the clothes. What most parents will not tolerate is their child lying to them.

Depending on the severity of the bruises left, I may or may not have a problem with that ruling. But then again this gets us into the territory of "what is a reasonable bruise?"... and that is very subjective.

And the kid had to lie about it...why?

Point still stands.

why do kids lie about anything? because they think it will help them to from being caught doing something that they were not supposed to be doing. Shouldn't matter what the kid had been lying about.

I think the members of this board are so afraid to be seen as homophobes or gaybashers that ya'll look for other possible examples too hard to denounce them.

DW, I agree that shitty parenting is not going to be counterbalanced by corporal punishment. But when used properly, it can be an effective tool for parents to use. And I find it amusing that you made the dog analogy. I often tell parents the same thing when I am at work and they call because their child is out of control. Yes, people call the police to come handle their 12 year old child that is "out of control". I usually tell the parent that I cannot fix in 10 minutes what took 10 years to screw up and then give them the dog analogy. Some it helps, others were just never meant to be parents and the fact that their reproductive organs work is a shame.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I used to believe in corporal punishment (despite being beaten with a shovel as a child, which scarred me both physically and emotionally and still affects me to this day), but someone close to me put up sufficiently eloquent arguments against it that I now regard it as the ultimate form of inhumanity. Children should be continuously watched over and guided and coddled into obedience--made to want to do what their guardians want them to do, in short--but all of this requires enormous skill and wisdom and compassion, and who needs to cultivate those when you can just grab some electrical cord and start whaling away?

[Shroom Man 777]

Um. Duchess arguments actually convinced me of the application of corporal punishment on adult criminals.

Have you changed your mind on that too, Duchess?

[The Grim Squeaker]

but all of this requires enormous skill and wisdom and compassion, and who needs to cultivate those when you can just grab some electrical cord and start whaling away?

This might be me being uncharacteristically optimistic, but most people are not sadists, they don't enjoy inflicting pain and corporal punishment for its own sake, and this goes fivefold for our modern western "liberal", humanistic society which regards physical violence as permanently avoidable and a very bad thing.

Most parents wouldn't want to beat their children with electric cords, frankly, if someone wanted to beat, mutilate, or otherwise treat their child shamefully, they can do so with immense ease without getting caught. (Mental torture for example, or being absolutely ruthless in the pain and domination inflicted on the child to ensure it doesn't inform anyone else).
Commiting crimes is a fair bit easier than people like to think, especially inside the tightest social unit of all, that of a caregiver and child.

As a sidenote, I do think that a parent who slaps a child who commited some severe act should not be punished, but this is a matter of immense grey lines - Is a parent who slpas a child for running ahead at a mall a monster? for running ahead in a forest? And so on.
There's no "Zero tolerance" friendly (If such a thing exists, which in my opinion, it does not) policiy when it comes to rearing, raising and educating children.

I'm of the opinion that people such as myself (Or you too Duchess, you 20 something pillock ) really have no room to criticize parents on how they raise their children, when we have experienced no comparable situation ourselves. (Ever had younger siblings, for example? ).

[Darth Wong]

Um. Duchess arguments actually convinced me of the application of corporal punishment on adult criminals.

Have you changed your mind on that too, Duchess?

Her argument regarding adult criminals is that long-term imprisonment is actually more cruel and less effective than corporal punishment. Since it is already illegal to lock children in a cage as a form of parental discipline, this is a totally irrelevant form of logic when applied to parenting.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm of the opinion that people such as myself (Or you too Duchess, you 20 something pillock :P ) really have no room to criticize parents on how they raise their children, when we have experienced no comparable situation ourselves. (Ever had younger siblings, for example? ).

This is like that infinitely retarded "only soldiers have the right to talk about war" meme that circulates infinitely in popular culture. No, I don't have any person experience on the giving end, but you'd damned well better fucking hope that you are ready to have children and raise them properly before you actually start, or else you should never start in the first place. There ARE objectively better ways of raising children which can be scientifically determined based on what sort of interactions with children promote the healthiest and most stable emotional and mental development. Why is raising children some kind of magic?

And I also severely resent the comment, anyway. I'm second to the youngest of my father's ten children, and my younger sister was born four years after me. So I'm not quite the youngest daughter of the lot, as a matter of fact, and I know my sister ended up a suicidal depressive, too, from watching and experiencing all the violence in the home, so please do not grandly proclaim that my parents could have been right; they weren't.

And I have Amy to compare against, anyhow, as well. It's a rather dramatic difference between how the two of us were raised, and she's proved the more resilient and functional of the two because of it.

Anyway, when it comes to raising children younger than the age of three or so, women have an objective advantage due to evolutionary adaptation for the role in terms of how our brains are wired to react to a baby's cries of distress and how we naturally respond and so on. So I don't expect a young buck like you to really have the slightest clue about parenting, but then, don't get upset over that, either. After that point, though, it's all about attitude and skill. In an ideal world, I'd ban anyone under the age of 30 from having kids, which would help immensely, but certainly not help enough. We really just need to make the education process for prospective parents much more involved and scientific. I really don't think very many parents at all raise their children in an ideal fashion.

So, take your "hur-hur, I don't think we can know" and stuff it, or better yet, I hope, start reading up on the subject of how researchers have begun to delve into the process of the development of the human brain at young ages, and take it seriously.