Russia threatens Poland; Norway says also cuts ties to NATO

[Tiriol]

Source in Finnish Helsingin Sanomat news article, translated below to best of my ability.

Venäjä: Vastaus Puolan ohjuskilpeen ei jää diplomatian tasolle

Venäjä uhkaa kovasanaisesti Puolaa. Puola hyväksyi keskiviikkona Yhdysvaltain ohjustentorjuntaohjusten sijoittamisen maaperälleen.

"Venäjän vastaus Puolan ohjuspuolustusjärjestelmään menee pelkkiä diplomaattisia protesteja pitemmälle", Venäjän ulkoministeriö ilmoittaa.

Ministeriön mukaan kyseessä ei ole yksittäistapaus. Sen mukaan Yhdysvalloilla on parhaillaan käynnissä lukuisia "erittäin vaarallisia sotilaallisia projekteja", joiden osana se Puolan uutta ohjuspuolustusjärjestelmää pitää.

Ulkoministeriö katsookin, että Puola ja Yhdysvallat pyrkivät järjestelmällään tietoisesti heikentämään Venäjää.

Yhdysvallat on perustellut ohjuspuolustusjärjestelmää Iranin aiheuttamalla sotilaallisella uhalla. Venäjän mukaan järjestelmä ei pysty suojaamaan minkäänlaisilta Iranin aiheuttamilta uhilta.

Russia: The answer to Poland's missile defense shield won't stay on diplomatic level

Russia strongly threatens Poland. On Wednesday, Poland decided to allow the US missile defense missiles to be located on their soil.

"Russia's answer to Poland's missile defense system will go beyond mere diplomatic protests", Russia's Ministry of Foreign Relations informs.

According to the Ministry this is not a single incident. According to it there are currently "several extremely dangerous military projects" undergoing in the United States and it considers the new Polish missile defense system to be part of them.

The Foreign Ministry has taken the stance that Poland and the United States are deliberately using their system to weaken Russia.

United States has has justified the missile defense system with the military threat posed by Iran. According to Russia the system is incapable of defending against any kind of threat posed by Iran.

From other sources, the YLE Uutiset (News), also translated for reader's benefit.

Norja: Venäjä katkaisee suhteensa Natoon

Norjan puolustusministeriön mukaan Venäjä suunnittelee katkaisevansa kaikki sotilaalliset yhteydet Natoon.

Ministeriön tiedottajan Heidi Langvik-Hansenin mukaan Norjan Venäjän suurlähettiläs sai puhelun keskiviikkona Venäjän puolustusministeriöstä, missä ilmoitettiin Venäjän suunnitelmista. Niiden mukaan Venäjä aikoo keskeyttää kaiken sotilaallisen yhteistyön Naton ja sen jäsenmaiden kanssa.

Venäjän viranomaiset eivät ole vielä varmistaneet asiaa. Naton päämajasta kerrotaan, ettei heille ole tiedotettu Venäjän aikeista.

Norway: Russia cuts ties to NATO

According to Norway's Ministry of Defense Russia plans to cut all military connections to NATO.

According to Ministry's public informer, Heidi Langvik-Hansen, Norway's Russian ambassador received a phone call on Wednesday from Russia's Ministry of Defense, during which he was informed of Russia's plans. According to them Russia intends to halt all military co-operation with NATO and its members.

Russian officials have as of yet not confirmed the news. NATO's headquarters claim that it hasn't been informed of Russia's plans.

[Bounty]

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were posting articles from 1988.

Is there another source for the NATO claim?

[Ender]

I think I speak for everyone when I say "Fuck."

[Tiriol]

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were posting articles from 1988.

Is there another source for the NATO claim?

No, which is somewhat a good thing; it could end up being chalked up to some miscommunication or a Russophobic journalist if no other news source emerges.

[Tiriol]

BBC confirms the article about Russia's sour attitude towards Poland.

Russia condemns US missile deal

The US-Polish deal is yet to be ratified by the Polish parliament
Russia has warned that a US-Polish missile defence deal creates a new arms race in Europe and beyond.

A foreign ministry statement said that Moscow "will be forced to react, and not only through diplomatic demarches". It did not elaborate.

The comments came just hours after the US and Poland signed the deal to locate 10 US interceptor rockets in Poland.

The US says the system will protect the US and Europe against missiles from "rogue" states such as Iran.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice - who signed the deal in Warsaw - said Moscow's earlier warning that the base on Polish soil could become a target for a nuclear attack bordered on the bizarre.

Last month, the US signed an agreement with the Czech Republic to base tracking radars there as part of the defence system.

Washington wants the sites to be in operation by about 2012.

'Imaginary' threat

The Russian foreign ministry said the planned missile shield was aimed at weakening Moscow, describing it as part of "US efforts to change the strategic balance of power in its favour".

Guide to US missile shield

It said the shield was "one of the instruments in an extremely dangerous bundle of US military projects involving the one-sided development of a global anti-missile system".

The statement also dismissed US claims of a missile threat from Iran as "imaginary".

However, the ministry said that Russia was still prepared to continue dialogue on the US missile shield with all parties involved.

'Aimed at no-one'

In Warsaw, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the negotiations had been "tough, but friendly", adding that the deal would make both Poland and the US more secure.

Ms Rice said the signing of the document was an extraordinary occasion.

She said the agreement would help Nato, Poland and the US respond to "the threats of the 21st Century".

Mr Rice also emphasised that the missile system was "defensive and aimed at no-one".

[Darth Wong]

If Russia does halt all co-operation with NATO, it wouldn't be much of a surprise. Condi Rice has been making noise about halting all NATO co-operation with Russia, after all. If she persists with that tactic, then why shouldn't the Russians say "OK fine, fuck you"?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Poor Russian babies. Our missile defense system is not a threat to their deterrent, and the fucking hypocrites have been upgrading their own next-door system around Moscow since the 1970s. They're just mad we don't bend over and hand them Poland on a plate to be bullied into their sphere of influence.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I agree with IP. Fuck Russia, but also fuck the White House. There never was a "good" or a "bad" side, just different variations of the same shit. The American and Russian whining over this whole debacle is getting old.

It would be a nicer world if we could get our so called leaders to duel at noon, rather than drag whole nations down with them.

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, given the astounding levels of racism in Polish society, I wouldn't shed too many tears if Russia somehow re-absorbed them, although I know this probably won't happen. They certainly don't belong in the EU.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Frankly, given the astounding levels of racism in Polish society, I wouldn't shed too many tears if Russia somehow re-absorbed them, although I know this probably won't happen. They certainly don't belong in the EU.

The Russians are just as racist; the Poles hate them for cutting up their country into pieces in the 17th century, and then trying to Russify them, pogroming their Jews, and trying to suppress their Roman Catholicism and Polish language.

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, given the astounding levels of racism in Polish society, I wouldn't shed too many tears if Russia somehow re-absorbed them, although I know this probably won't happen. They certainly don't belong in the EU.

The Russians are just as racist; the Poles hate them for cutting up their country into pieces in the 17th century, and then trying to Russify them, pogroming their Jews, and trying to suppress their Roman Catholicism and Polish language.

Why do think I figure they belong together? They deserve each other.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Maybe I'm a little sentimental. I've always had Western guilt over our cockslapping of the Polish government-in-exile in World War II since I was aware of how badly we fucked them in order to appease Uncle Joe.

[montypython]

Maybe I'm a little sentimental. I've always had Western guilt over our cockslapping of the Polish government-in-exile in World War II since I was aware of how badly we fucked them in order to appease Uncle Joe.

Considering how the worst things that happened in Eastern Europe were as much self-inflicted by egotism and nationalist wanking as it was by outside interventionism, the rest of the world shouldn't have to be dragged into their messes.

[Pablo Sanchez]

They're just mad we don't bend over and hand them Poland on a plate to be bullied into their sphere of influence.

They're in NATO as well as the EU, which shields them pretty well from Russian bullying already, so how exactly does making them a pawn in a USA-Russian shoving match benefit Poland?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

NATO-Russia cooperation has been in general non-existent anyway. So this latest deal is just making what was plain, even clearer.

[K. A. Pital]

"Sphere of influence"? "The AMD is not a threat to Russia"?

I suggest that people re-read some of the posts which Stuart made here earlier. The system is capable of acting against Russia, which is only a matter of priority.

All the talk about "defending our national interests" is fine, but someone should figure out that the US ABM is not in Russia's interests.

And please shut up about the Russian ABM from the 1970s. It broke the ABM treaty in no ways, and not only that, but it never i ncluded space & sea based elements, which the US system does, and which were explicitly prohibited. Let's be fucking honest - Russia is back behind the US in the whole ABM deal, while the US is constructing a world-encompassing system against any adversary.

As for "Russian sphere of influence", Russia had no problems with Poland before the whole ABM system talk. I guess someone is looking for false reasons. Not to mention that the current Russia is economically incapable of maintaining any sort of command over Eastern European nations, and much less is the populace concerned about it (more about post-Soviet space like Georgia/Ukraine).

As for NATO and/or the United States, fuck them and their interests - exactly the way their citizens speak about Russia and/or Russian interests. Russia should have sent this fuck you gesture far earlier, either during Yugoslavia or during the Iraq war, but for some reason it didn't.

[Icehawk]

I suggest that people re-read some of the posts which Stuart made here earlier. The system is capable of acting against Russia, which is only a matter of priority.

So why doesn't Russia stop making bullshit, ignorant warmongering threats against something that wouldn't actually do much of anything against it and just go and causually develop a counter to the oh so scary missile defense shield then hmm? Or better yet, go fucking build your own missile shield, or better yet, why didnt you become an equal partner in the current shield plan?

[K. A. Pital]

So why doesn't Russia stop making bullshit, ignorant warmongering threats

Which threats, saying that we will target ABM installations as prime strategic objects? We have said such for a long time and it makes perfect sense in case of war. Disagree?

...against something that wouldn't actually do much of anything against it and just go and causually develop a counter to the oh so scary missile defense shield then hmm?

Why should we NOT put every possible stick into the wheel of the US missile shield? This gives us more time to develop our counters, while the US lags here or there trying to make other countries accept it's proposals.

Or better yet, go fucking build your own missile shield, or better yet, why didnt you become an equal partner in the current shield plan?

"Equal partner"? We proposed a joint ABM plan, to give the US a huge RLS from Gabalinsk for the purpose of tracking Iran's launches, but the US declined. That is understandanble, the US ABM should be US controlled.

But don't chastise or accuse us for pursuing our interests. We have every right to make EVERY attempt to slow down the US ABM system. Just as the US uses the carrot-and-stick or scaremongering to make other nations accept it's military plans.

Deal with it and stop bitching. Poland was a target anyway, but ABM installations only mean more missiles will be re-oriented on it to act as a missile sponge. Any reasonable planner would do so, I'm sure Stuart would agree.

[Pelranius]

Well, I don't think that the Shanghai Pact, I mean Shanghai Cooperation Organization (honestly do not know why that typo happened) is going to get stronger because of this. There's really not much China or Russia could do for each other if one got embroiled in a war.

[Vympel]

I expect Russia to reintroduce some MRBMs to target Europe and save its ICBMs for the US, in the forseeable future. ICBMs against Poland would be a waste. It'd be relatively easy to introduce a "-M" of the SS-20. Belarus will build the TELs, as always.

[Sidewinder]

But don't chastise or accuse us for pursuing our interests. We have every right to make EVERY attempt to slow down the US ABM system. Just as the US uses the carrot-and-stick or scaremongering to make other nations accept it's military plans.

It works both ways; if Russia claims the right to make every attempt to slow down the US ABM system's entry to service, the US can also claim the right to pump more money into R & D and speed up the system's entry to service, as a way of saying, "Fuck me? Why don't you go fuck yourself!"

[Sidewinder]

Well, I don't think that the Shanghai Pact, I mean Shanghai Cooperation Organization (honestly do not know why that typo happened) is going to get stronger because of this. There's really not much China or Russia could do for each other if one got embroiled in a war.

There's also the possibility China and Russia will go to war against each other. If that happens, the million dollar question is "Which side is the US on?"

[Coyote]

I hate to say it, but let's face it, Russia was in a pit of chaos for quite awhile in the '90's, and when it came out they tried to play well with NATO and the West... pretty much all they got out of it was NATO encroachment; their concerns largely ignored in Yugoslavia; and this missile system which they said was a point of discontent that needed serious discussion-- which was ignored.

Now, some of these concerns may or may not be totally valid, or at least open to interpretation (I mean, let's face it, if Russia was so full of brotherly Slavic love for Eastern Europe, why did everyone jump ship and bolt to NATO when given a chance), but right or wrong, they basically got treated like a bitch who's concerns were laughed off.

More wonderful foreign-policy-fuckup crows coming home to roost. I mean, shit, a Junior High School history class teaches kids that Russia has always been concerned about foreign encirclement and access to warm-water ports. NATO expansion into traditionally Russian territory (not Poland or Hungary, but Georgia) would be an obvious poke in the eye that will provoke a response.

I'm reminded of those dumb kids that kept teasing that tiger at the San Diego zoo last year. Sooner or later, tiger's gonna swipe back at ya.

[K. A. Pital]

It works both ways; if Russia claims the right to make every attempt to slow down the US ABM system's entry to service, the US can also claim the right to pump more money into R & D and speed up the system's entry to service, as a way of saying, "Fuck me? Why don't you go fuck yourself!"

Of course it does. Isn't this what the US is actively doing, actually, regardless of Russia's actions?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I don't see what the hoo-haa over targeting Poland is about. The United States has similar plans for the ABM around Moscow so why not some other city who is allied with your enemy?