Responses to the 700 Billion Blank Check.

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Responses to the 700 Billion Blank Check.

Post by SirNitram »

This post will have whatever I can drag out from the various folks in positions of either lawmaking, or influence over those.

ABC's 'This Week' was on, and had this quote.
DODD: I think there’s going to be a strong interest to deal with the Main Street aspects of this.

BOEHNER: But we’ve already dealt with that, when we passed the housing bill last summer. I didn’t vote for it because of the $300 billion bailout for scam artists, and speculators, and others around the housing industry. But there are a lot of tools in there to help the Federal Housing Administration deal with the foreclosures problems that’s out there. We need to rise above partisan politics…and deal with this as adults.
Boehner is against anything but the Wall Street Bankers getting aid, Dodd wants aid across the economy.

Obama shows good leadership after an incomplete early statement. Here's the statement..
As of now, the Bush Administration has only offered a concept with a staggering price tag, not a plan. Even if the U.S. Treasury recovers some or most of its investment over time, this initial outlay of up to $700 billion is sobering. And in return for their support, the American people must be assured that the deal reflects the basic principles of transparency, fairness, and reform.
First, there must be no blank check when American taxpayers are on the hook for this much money.
Second, taxpayers shouldn't be spending a dime to reward CEOs on Wall Street.
Third, taxpayers should be protected and should be able to recoup this investment.
Fourth, this plan has to help homeowners stay in their homes.
Fifth, this is a global crisis, and the United States must insist that other nations join us in helping secure the financial markets.
Sixth, we need to start putting in place the rules of the road I've been calling for for years to prevent this from ever happening again.
And finally, this plan can't just be a plan for Wall Street, it has to be a plan for Main Street
And then, according to ABC's 'Political Radar'(Link), he grabs the phone.
ABC's Sunlen Miller reports: Since yesterday, Sen. Barack Obama has spoken on the phone with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Senate Banking Committee chairman Chris Dodd, Rep. Barney Frank, Sen. Chuck Schumer, Rep. Ralph Emmanuel, former President Bill Clinton and Sen. Hillary Clinton about the economic situation and the plan for dealing with it.

Spokesperson Linda Douglass says that the conversations were about devising a "quick, bipartisan solution" to the economic crisis and they touched on the principles that Obama laid out in a speech in Charlotte, N.C., today.

"As of now, the Bush administration has only offered a concept with a staggering price tag, not a plan," Obama said. "Even if the U.S. Treasury recovers some or most of its investment over time, this initial outlay of up to $700 billion is sobering. And in return for their support, the American people must be assured that the deal reflects the basic principles of transparency, and fairness, and reform. We can’t allow this to happen again. They have run this government, they have run this economy into the ground. We’ve got to make sure that we lift if back up, but we’ve got to have some rules in place to make sure it doesn’t happen again."

Obama set out seven principles (several of which he has regularly mentioned on the campaign trail) for what he would like to see included in the government's bailout plan.

o No blank check. If we grant the Treasury broad authority to address the immediate crisis, we must insist on independent accountability and oversight. Given the breach of trust we have seen and the magnitude of the taxpayer money involved, there can be no blank check.
o Rescue requires mutual responsibility. As taxpayers are asked to take extraordinary steps to protect our financial system, it is only appropriate to expect those institutions that benefit to help protect American homeowners and the American economy. We cannot underwrite continued irresponsibility, where CEOs cash in and our regulators look the other way. We cannot abet and reward the unconscionable practices that triggered this crisis. We have to end them.
o Taxpayers should be protected. This should not be a handout to Wall Street. It should be structured in a way that maximizes the ability of taxpayers to recoup their investment. Going forward, we need to make sure that the institutions that benefit from financial insurance also bear the cost of that insurance.
o Help homeowners stay in their homes. This crisis started with homeowners and they bear the brunt of the nearly unprecedented collapse in housing prices. We cannot have a plan for Wall Street banks that does not help homeowners stay in their homes and help distressed communities.
o A global response. As I said on Friday, this is a global financial crisis and it requires a global solution. The United States must lead, but we must also insist that other nations, who have a huge stake in the outcome, join us in helping to secure the financial markets.
o Main Street, not just Wall Street. The American people need to know that we feel as great a sense of urgency about the emergency on Main Street as we do the emergency on Wall Street. That is why I call on Senator McCain, President Bush, Republicans and Democrats to join me in supporting an emergency economic plan for working families – a plan that would help folks cope with rising gas and food prices, save one million jobs through rebuilding our schools and roads, help states and cities avoid painful budget cuts and tax increases, help homeowners stay in their homes, and provide retooling assistance to help ensure that the fuel-efficient cars of the future are built in America.
o Build a regulatory structure for the 21st Century. While there is not time in a week to remake our regulatory structure to prevent abuses in the future, we should commit ourselves to the kind of reforms I have been advocating for several years. We need new rules of the road for the 21st Century economy, together with the means and willingness to enforce them.
After the phone call, Time's 'The Page'(Link gets ahold of Pelosi's statement.

Washington, D.C. — Speaker Nancy Pelosi issued the following statement today as Congress and the White House work to craft legislation to address the crisis in our financial markets:

“Congress will respond to the financial markets crisis by taking action this week in a bipartisan manner that will protect the taxpayers’ interests. The Administration’s $700 billion proposal does not include the necessary safeguards. Democrats believe a responsible solution should include independent oversight, protections for homeowners and constraints on excessive executive compensation.

“We will not simply hand over a $700 billion blank check to Wall Street and hope for a better outcome. Democrats will act responsibly to insulate Main Street from Wall Street.

“As we proceed to deal with this crisis, this is clear recognition that the party is over for the Bush Administration’s anything goes, failed economic policies that have damaged our economy, undermined the middle class and further pointed out the need for a New Direction.”
Back to the Political Radar(Link) again, we find the abbreviated bits of Newt Gingrich on this.
Writing on The Corner, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, R-Ga., has some questions about the Bush administration's proposed $700 billion taxpayer bailout of the financial sector.

"We are being reassured that we can trust Secretary Paulson 'because he knows what he is doing.'

"Congress had better ask a lot of questions before it shifts this much burden to the taxpayer and shifts this much power to a Washington bureaucracy.

"Imagine that the political balance of power in Washington were different.

"If this were a Democratic administration, the Republicans in the House and Senate would be demanding answers and would be organizing for a 'no' vote. ... Congress has an obligation to protect the taxpayer.

"Congress has an obligation to limit the executive branch to the rule of law.

"Congress has an obligation to perform oversight.

"Congress was designed by the Founding Fathers to move slowly, precisely to avoid the sudden panic of a one-week solution that becomes a 20-year mess..."
If you really want to go read the Corner, I hope you didn't like those braincells.

Senator Sanders, Independent from Vermont, says.. Link
BURLINGTON, Vt.—Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., says he'll oppose a Bush administration proposal to bail out troubled financial institutions if the middle class is asked to pay for it.

Sanders on Sunday issued a statement saying middle class Americans shouldn't have to pay for a crisis created by "the Bush administration's deregulatory fever and Wall Street's insatiable greed."

The administration proposal would have the Treasury Department buy $700 billion in nonperforming mortgage assets from banks. Sanders says that should be paid for through an income tax surcharge on individuals with more than $500,000 in annual income and couples earning more than $1 million.

He also wants to break up some of the biggest financial institutions. "If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist," Sanders said.

Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., later issued a less specific statement, saying he wants to "see progress toward a balanced bill that also helps overburdened middle class families."

He added, "It should not include get-out-of-jail-free cards for those whose greed caused this mess, and it should not lessen accountability for those responsible for this crisis in our financial markets.
Over at the WSJ's online arm, we've got the Financial Industry's giants on the move.. Link
WASHINGTON -- Titans of the financial industry are battling to influence the government's financial rescue plan, a package that will create new winners and losers in the sector.

Democrats in Congress want a rescue package that benefits homeowners at risk for foreclosure, not just Wall Street. Securities houses don't want executive salary limits for banks that participate in the rescue.

Credit unions want any mechanism that is created to buy up bad loans and investments to apply not only to banks but to them also. Banks are fighting Treasury plans to provide federal guarantees for money market mutual funds.
That's all I can get before the subscription cutoff, but it says it starkly: The people being bailed out can still afford to send lobbyists to insist they never pay a cent.

When you're done reading these and noticing that Paulson has recently altered the proposal to allow him to give big bucks to foreign banks even if they don't have much influence here, if he deems it good, you might be mad.

Quench your rage in the bitter tears of the whiny brats in this story. WAH! I'M HAVING TO SELL A PRIVATE JET!
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Post by Covenant »

This is all pretty staggering. I don't understand business or money very much, but I do understand the web of promises, perception and back-of-the-envelope deals that is kindly called an investment industry is basically backed up by centripedal force around a nexus of future capital. Could anyone sum up in a real short way what the possible fallout is, so I could use this to educate the people who know even less than me? The massive money vaccum was all make-believe investment capital, right? What happens now to the dollar and to bigger institutions, and to the taxpayers? Even if the government could make money off of these loans to the big institutions, wouldn't that just make it harder for businesses to borrow cash, and thus depress the economy more?
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Post by Ender »

I just want to know 2 things:

1) Why limiting the payoffs to the CEOs who created this mess is a "poison pill". Those motherfuckers aren't the guys voting to approve this, why do we need to appease them? They aren't going to take the money and fix this otherwise? How the fuck is this a "poison pill"?

2) Why we are bailing out foreign banks. I'm willing to listen carefully to this in case there is a valid reason why we are sending our wealth overseas to bail out those who preyed on us, but it had better be a very good reason.

I can't find it now, but earlier today I was reading a news story that one of the big MSM groups did (I think it was ABC) where they went on the streets and asked people what they thought, and the universal response was pretty much "hell no!" Now whether that is ignorance talking or good sense I can't say, as they haven't released the full details of the plan yet. But even if this is a bitter pill we need to swallow to prevent something worse, I'm still not fucking happy about it.
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Post by Stark »

I'm not sure charcterising 'forgein banks' as 'those who preyed on you' makes sense. Why do you think economic effects stop at national borders?
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Post by RedImperator »

The only way I support this is if bankers and CEOs and congressmen start going to jail. There's no way you ruin the entire economy and fuck everything up so hard you need a trillion dollar bailout without breaking some laws somewhere. 20 years in the Hotel Graybar for the rich fucks who did this ought to mitigate the moral hazard somewhat.
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Post by Stark »

RedImperator wrote:The only way I support this is if bankers and CEOs and congressmen start going to jail. There's no way you ruin the entire economy and fuck everything up so hard you need a trillion dollar bailout without breaking some laws somewhere. 20 years in the Hotel Graybar for the rich fucks who did this ought to mitigate the moral hazard somewhat.
And we all know that will never, ever happen. That's why the legal structure of the finacial world exists. They'll fuck the country, as a group they'll probably weather it fine while everyone else sucks, and nothing will happen to them.

Turns out society isn't fair.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Stark wrote: And we all know that will never, ever happen. That's why the legal structure of the finacial world exists. They'll fuck the country, as a group they'll probably weather it fine while everyone else sucks, and nothing will happen to them.

Turns out society isn't fair.
It also starts making a communist revolution attractive. Whatever new problems that would cause, at least at very last we really could lines these fuckers up against the wall and shoot them all.
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Post by RedImperator »

Stark wrote:
RedImperator wrote:The only way I support this is if bankers and CEOs and congressmen start going to jail. There's no way you ruin the entire economy and fuck everything up so hard you need a trillion dollar bailout without breaking some laws somewhere. 20 years in the Hotel Graybar for the rich fucks who did this ought to mitigate the moral hazard somewhat.
And we all know that will never, ever happen. That's why the legal structure of the finacial world exists. They'll fuck the country, as a group they'll probably weather it fine while everyone else sucks, and nothing will happen to them.

Turns out society isn't fair.
I don't hold out any hopes for getting everyone, but the last time there was a fiasco like this (the S&L bailout), people actually did go to prison. Not long enough, but maybe an order-of-magnitude bigger fuckup will earn an order-of-magnitude longer prison term. You know, like the kind of sentence a guy caught with a doobie might get in certain states.

Or we could go with Sea Skimmer's idea, which I have to confess holds a certain appeal (if only my lolbertarian college self could read that).
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Post by Durandal »

At this point, I'd just be satisfied if every CEO who got fired walked away with $0.
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Post by Ender »

Stark wrote:I'm not sure charcterising 'forgein banks' as 'those who preyed on you' makes sense. Why do you think economic effects stop at national borders?
Why do you think I should pay to fix the bad decisions your countrymen made? Are you sending money our way to shore up our problems? No? Then why should I do that for you?

Oh, and intentionally misquoting me to make it look like I'm an idiot who can't spell? That's low even for you.
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Post by Stark »

Ender wrote:Why do you think I should pay to fix the bad decisions your countrymen made? Are you sending money our way to shore up our problems? No? Then why should I do that for you?

Oh, and intentionally misquoting me to make it look like I'm an idiot who can't spell? That's low even for you.
Your insecurity isn't really my concern.

I'm not sure why you think you paying to fix 'bad decisions' other people made when they all affect everyone is some big deal. If a bank is full of Americans, invested in American economy, or it will cause problems in America if it fails, does it really make sense to not apply the same stupid 'lol bailout' idea as you do to purely local banks? I'm not sure how nationalism applies to a global economic crisis, so I'm not sure why ignoring foreign banks entirely even when they'll hurt your economy makes any sense at all, beyond high-school 'lol YOU MADE BAD DECISIONS LOL' reasoning.

If you bailout US banks and nobody else, even if it does work (which it obviously won't), everyone else will still collapse and your economy will STILL be fucked. Nationalistic 'only corporate welfare for banks based in the US regardless of where their money is/where the damage will be caused if they collapse' doesn't make any sense to me.
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Post by Ender »

Stark wrote:Your insecurity isn't really my concern.
Same old Stark. You are a dishonest piece of shit, and when you get called on it, it's the other person's fault.
I'm not sure why you think you paying to fix 'bad decisions' other people made when they all affect everyone is some big deal.
Because I don't having an essentially unlimited amount of debt being tacked on to me and my children.
If a bank is full of Americans, invested in American economy, or it will cause problems in America if it fails, does it really make sense to not apply the same stupid 'lol bailout' idea as you do to purely local banks? I'm not sure how nationalism applies to a global economic crisis, so I'm not sure why ignoring foreign banks entirely even when they'll hurt your economy makes any sense at all, beyond high-school 'lol YOU MADE BAD DECISIONS LOL' reasoning.
Volume of impact. The bad debt of a foreign bank will obviously impact the global economy. But that impact is spread out globally. If we buy out their debt, the impact is applied to me and mine alone.
If you bailout US banks and nobody else, even if it does work (which it obviously won't), everyone else will still collapse and your economy will STILL be fucked. Nationalistic 'only corporate welfare for banks based in the US regardless of where their money is/where the damage will be caused if they collapse' doesn't make any sense to me.
Of course not, your attitude is "I got mine, now you guys clean up after me." Of course you don't see buying massive amounts of bad debt as "some big deal", you reap the benefit without paying the cost.
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Post by Stark »

Ender wrote:Same old Stark. You are a dishonest piece of shit, and when you get called on it, it's the other person's fault.
Ad hominem. Vendetta. Hello Ender! Sorry when I typed on a phone I spelt a word wrong... please troll me!
Because I don't having an essentially unlimited amount of debt being tacked on to me and my children.
I understand that, which is why the whole idea of the almost-certain-to-fail bailouts is stupid, but if you only bailout US banks, isn't it even MORE certain to fail? Obvisouly there's scope to prioritise US institutions, but I don't think there's enough buffering for allowing other banks heavily invested in the US to fail while pouring huge amounts of corporate welfare into your own shyster bankers to make sense.
Volume of impact. The bad debt of a foreign bank will obviously impact the global economy. But that impact is spread out globally. If we buy out their debt, the impact is applied to me and mine alone.
That's a good point - I guess in general terms, US banks will tend to be more closely linked to your economy, so you should tend to get more temporary stability for your taxpayer dollar. If it gets bad enough in the rest of the world it'll still affect the US, however. If there are foreign banks that are 'worth' bailing out for the US (in the broken thought process behind the bailouts) surely it should be done to benefit America, instead of sticking your head in the sand and saying 'not American fuck you' and hurting yourself?
Of course not, your attitude is "I got mine, now you guys clean up after me." Of course you don't see buying massive amounts of bad debt as "some big deal", you reap the benefit without paying the cost.
Sorry, AU banks are doing fine, it's not 'my attitude' or 'I got mine'. I'm trying to understand your attitude of 'let the whole world burn while we sink huge amounts of taxpayers money into a project that is bound to fail when the rest of the work collapses anyway'. Economic effects don't respect national boundaries, so I think examination of cost vs benefit is more useful than simply ignoring anyone who isn't American.

Your adversarial attitude in this discussion is hilarious. I'm the personification of the failing US banking industry, and you're angry at ME because I GOT MINE and I want the US to CLEAN UP AFTER ME and I'M REAPING THE BENEFIT. I mean, seriously?
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Post by Ender »

Stark wrote:Ad hominem. Vendetta. Hello Ender! Sorry when I typed on a phone I spelt a word wrong... please troll me!
Yeah, no. Calling you out when you try shit like that is simply that, not any other charges. Copy paste works well enough that when you quote someone and it is wrong, it was a deliberate change. But hey, it let you either taint the well against me, or play the wounded victim like you are now. So fuck along now shitheel.
I understand that, which is why the whole idea of the almost-certain-to-fail bailouts is stupid, but if you only bailout US banks, isn't it even MORE certain to fail?
So buying bad debt is bad, so we should buy up as much of it as possible?
Obvisouly there's scope to prioritise US institutions, but I don't think there's enough buffering for allowing other banks heavily invested in the US to fail while pouring huge amounts of corporate welfare into your own shyster bankers to make sense.
Funnily enough, that was about the question I came in asking. I was hoping that MoO, IP, J, Aerius, or anyone with some training could explain if this was a good idea or a bad idea. Instead I got you saying it is good because you say so.
That's a good point - I guess in general terms, US banks will tend to be more closely linked to your economy, so you should tend to get more temporary stability for your taxpayer dollar. If it gets bad enough in the rest of the world it'll still affect the US, however. If there are foreign banks that are 'worth' bailing out for the US (in the broken thought process behind the bailouts) surely it should be done to benefit America, instead of sticking your head in the sand and saying 'not American fuck you' and hurting yourself?
Got any numbers to back up the impact of foreign meltdowns vs the impact of bringing their volume of bad debt? What I can find comparing this with the 90's it may have hurt us by preventing things from being as profitable as possible, but we still did fairly well. Unfortunately I can't find anything that adjusts for the boost from the internet industry, but even if you want to attribute that to the dot-com boom, you have the energy boom groups like The Economist are predicting.

Sorry, AU banks are doing fine, it's not 'my attitude' or 'I got mine'. I'm trying to understand your attitude of 'let the whole world burn while we sink huge amounts of taxpayers money into a project that is bound to fail when the rest of the work collapses anyway'. Economic effects don't respect national boundaries, so I think examination of cost vs benefit is more useful than simply ignoring anyone who isn't American.
Yeah, how about we look at overall cost-benefit then, shall we? Compare the slowdown that resulted from the Japanese Banking Crisis of the 1990's vs what will happen if we pile on the bad debt. When the yen went through meltdown the entire world market saw the results.
And it hurt us here. But compare that to the theoretical impacts that come from all this bad debt, and I fail to see why we should take any steps to increase it more then absolutely necessary.
Your adversarial attitude in this discussion is hilarious.
Imagine that, when you start off by trying to poison the well and then proceed to refuse to offer up any real arguments other then repeating "you should do it", I respond in an adversarial manner. It's almost like you reap what you sow.
I'm the personification of the failing US banking industry, and you're angry at ME because I GOT MINE and I want the US to CLEAN UP AFTER ME and I'M REAPING THE BENEFIT. I mean, seriously?
No, I'm hostile because you've engaged in rampant dishonesty so far, from intentionally altering a simple copy paste, to then engaging in a series of appeals to authority where you insist that this needs to be done on your personal say-so rather than providing any kind of actual reasoning based in facts or historical comparison.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Looks like (at least) a few Congresspeople are Very Fucking Angry at this shit:

Paulsen and congressional Republicans, or the few that will actually vote for this (most will be unwilling to take responsibility for the consequences of their policies), have said that there can't be any "add ons," or addition provisions. Fuck that. I don't really want to trigger a world wide depression (that's not hyperbole, that's a distinct possibility), but I'm not voting for a blank check for $700 billion for those mother fuckers.

Nancy said she wanted to include the second "stimulus" package that the Bush Administration and congressional Republicans have blocked. I don't want to trade a $700 billion dollar giveaway to the most unsympathetic human beings on the planet for a few fucking bridges. I want reforms of the industry, and I want it to be as punitive as possible.

Henry Waxman has suggested corporate government reforms, including CEO compensation, as the price for this. Some members have publicly suggested allowing modification of mortgages in bankruptcy, and the House Judiciary Committee staff is also very interested in that. That's a real possibility.

We may strip out all the gives to industry in the predatory mortgage lending bill that the House passed last November, which hasn't budged in the Senate, and include that in the bill. There are other ideas on the table but they are going to be tough to work out before next week.

I also find myself drawn to provisions that would serve no useful purpose except to insult the industry, like requiring the CEOs, CFOs and the chair of the board of any entity that sells mortgage related securities to the Treasury Department to certify that they have completed an approved course in credit counseling. That is now required of consumers filing bankruptcy to make sure they feel properly humiliated for being head over heels in debt, although most lost control of their finances because of a serious illness in the family. That would just be petty and childish, and completely in character for me.

I'm open to other ideas, and I am looking for volunteers who want to hold the sons of bitches so I can beat the crap out of them.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Paulson's proposal wrote:Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.
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Post by Stark »

Ender wrote:Yeah, no. Calling you out when you try shit like that is simply that, not any other charges. Copy paste works well enough that when you quote someone and it is wrong, it was a deliberate change. But hey, it let you either taint the well against me, or play the wounded victim like you are now. So fuck along now shitheel.
Hilarious. You're too blinded by frankly incomprehensible personal hatred to notice I also spelled other words wrong. No no, you've simply focused in on a single mispelling to launch into an Ender Rage. Remember, talking about how I'm dishonest is fine, but an innocent spelling mistake is 'poisoning the well'.

Also, how does copy and paste work on an iPhone? I wasn't aware I had that functionality. Can you describe it for me?
So buying bad debt is bad, so we should buy up as much of it as possible?
Uh, no. I asked if concentrating only on the US financial industry would make the bailout more likely to fail. This does not mean 'buy more bad debt at random', and I clearly expect that foreign banks will be judged on actual merit re bailouts, instead of either of your black-white fallacious options - ie, 'buy lots of foreign debt' and 'buy none'. I suggest that those banks relevant to the US should be treated equally (or proportional to their impact on the US economy) isntead of your 'us vs them' attitude.
Funnily enough, that was about the question I came in asking. I was hoping that MoO, IP, J, Aerius, or anyone with some training could explain if this was a good idea or a bad idea. Instead I got you saying it is good because you say so.
No, you hypocritical little shit, you had me opening a discussion and asking a question. Everyone can see what I posted. I was interested in your adversarial attitude to economics and was curious of this plan would actually work (since I don't know much about the US banking system, as you point out). Are you really things angry about a spelling mistake and my gall to ask a question about a statement you made?
Got any numbers to back up the impact of foreign meltdowns vs the impact of bringing their volume of bad debt? What I can find comparing this with the 90's it may have hurt us by preventing things from being as profitable as possible, but we still did fairly well. Unfortunately I can't find anything that adjusts for the boost from the internet industry, but even if you want to attribute that to the dot-com boom, you have the energy boom groups like The Economist are predicting.
No, which is why I opened a discussion. I 'wasn't sure', remember? I even JUST AGREED that local banks are probably more important in general. I have no real knowledge about how foreign financiers affect the US economy, but in many economic discussions here it's been pointed out that no economy exists in a vacuum. In that context, simply ignoring all foreign banks regardless of impact on the US economy seemed simplistic, but it's now clear that you have precedent behind your attitude. I'm interested in how successful the US has been in the past by cleaning up it's own backyard first.
Yeah, how about we look at overall cost-benefit then, shall we? Compare the slowdown that resulted from the Japanese Banking Crisis of the 1990's vs what will happen if we pile on the bad debt. When the yen went through meltdown the entire world market saw the results.
And it hurt us here. But compare that to the theoretical impacts that come from all this bad debt, and I fail to see why we should take any steps to increase it more then absolutely necessary.
So, aside from the Ender Rage, we're having a discussion now. I 100% agree with you that the bailouts are in general a poor idea, I'm just intersted in your blanket statement which both characterised international failing banks as predators and appeared to suggest to me that you felt these banks didn't affect you. Now that we're actually talking I see that you have already considered the concerns I had, and as far as I can tell you seem to be saying that the US may be able to ride this out if you concentrate on keeping your own house in order, in which case taking on foreign debts as well will simply make it harder. Is this accurate?
Imagine that, when you start off by trying to poison the well and then proceed to refuse to offer up any real arguments other then repeating "you should do it", I respond in an adversarial manner. It's almost like you reap what you sow.
I love this. As I mentioned above, I also mis-spelled 'characterising'. Am I poisoning my own well now? Or are you just hysterically paranoid?
No, I'm hostile because you've engaged in rampant dishonesty so far, from intentionally altering a simple copy paste, to then engaging in a series of appeals to authority where you insist that this needs to be done on your personal say-so rather than providing any kind of actual reasoning based in facts or historical comparison.
Not only have you spent the entire time in baseless personal attacks, but you've also broadened these by suggesting I have a reputation for dishonesty and sleazy debate tactics. I mis-spell a word, and you attack my credibility and then say I'M poisoning the well?
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Post by SirNitram »

Stas Bush wrote:
Paulson's proposal wrote:Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.
Standard Bush Administration Boilerplate. I think they have a stamp that makes that phrase.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

remember it's all your fault, tax payers will cover the bill, the fat cats get to keep all the money.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Stas Bush wrote:
Paulson's proposal wrote:Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.
And that is the line that's ignited the entire Internet into a firestorm of anger and hate. Example:
Call your Congressman or woman and demand that this will not stand, otherwise Congress will have literally just ceded its last bit of power, that of the purse.

Like Stirling said, this is pretty Constitutional, if you ask me.

Nota bene: As a Conservative friend of mine just said in an email, "It's not good at all. It's basically a transfer of the unlimited power of the Executive in wartime to spending matters. Taken to its logical extreme, it's the end of Congress."
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Dear Senator Obama-

Chances are most if not all of the major commercial and investment banks are insolvent. Not one of them is opting out of the do-not-short list, and they don't seem to have the confidence in their survival to opt out of the L3 asset swap program Secretary Paulson is proposing.

It is also very likely that acutely dangerous systemic risk already exists, not merely from direct lines of credit among the banks, but especially from credit default swaps, which if activated by more than one large bank default would probably bring down many others. Remember, though, that this systemic risk is highly concentrated in the top 25 or so banks in the world, and does not jeopardize the 6,000 other community banks in the U.S.

Third, it is also highly probable that as this recession worsens, and as housing values continue to sink, forcing more foreclosures, the large banks will be even closer to collapse.

Having worked for many years in the banking industry and been closely involved with risk management and derivatives, I can tell you that it looks like catastrophe is already here.

What Sec. Paulson wants you to believe is that catastrophe is approaching, but it can be averted if only Congress acts urgently to give him the extraordinary authority he is requesting. The implication is if you don't give him $700 billion in borrowing authority within a week, markets will collapse and it will be all your fault.

We've seen this drill before, with the Patriot Act and with the Iraq War authorization. The scare tactics, the urgency, the implied threat of blame for any failure - this is what the Bush administration does. Some of you in the Senate were able to stand up to this pressure, and that type of strength is desperately needed now.

If insolvency is here now for the big banks, the last thing you want to do is throw $700 billion of money that is not yours at bailing out the banks who created this disaster. You'll need every bit of that money to protect the taxpayers and their deposits in these banks when these financial companies are thrown into the bankruptcy courts. You'll need that money to make sure consumer deposits are protected with insurance, and you'll need it to keep the healthy parts of these banks that deal with consumers and businesses functioning until they come out of bankruptcy.

And forget about comparing Paulson's plan to the RTC. These L3 assets aren't homes, condos, or commercial real estate that can be easily sold at the right price. They are bits of paper giving the bond holder the right to some small portion of thousands of mortgages, a right that is shared with all the other investors, who are required to agree on what is done with foreclosed properties in the pool. This is one of the reasons no one wants to buy this stuff, and no one will for many years until it is crystal clear what the final losses will be.

Once you give Paulson the authority he seeks, he will buy these securities at 65 cents/dollar, then quietly auction them off at a nickel each. It will be "unfortunate but necessary" to revitalize the banking industry, even though you will discover the banks won't be lending after this is all over to any but the finest credits. You will have rewarded the banks for their calamitous decisions, stuffed the taxpayers with huge losses, squandered your remaining ability to shore up the FDIC, not prevented the big banks from collapsing anyway, done nothing to help the community banks that will constitute the new banking system in this country when these problems are solved, and in the end made the situation much worse.

If you want to do something practical, require the SEC to go into these banks, open up their L3 holdings to public scrutiny, auction off a sampling of these securities, and apply those prices to the L3 portfolios of all the banks. In this way we will know which banks are insolvent. You won't need to go through this charade of having the Treasury take ownership of these assets, because the core of the problem is not that these assets are clogging up bank balances sheets, as Paulson says (which is tantamount to saying, by the way, that no one will buy them). The core of the problem is that there is no transparency about these portfolios and their real worth. Congress doesn't need $700 billion of our money to create that transparency, and if it shows as I suspect that many of these banks are insolvent, that's why we have bankruptcy courts. You can certainly protect the banks from bank runs while they are in bankruptcy.

Paulson is basically rolling you and the rest of Congress into giving him unprecedented power to protect his friends on Wall Street. This decision you are making is probably as momentous as the Iraq War resolution. Don't fall for this bailout disguised as the only way to prevent Armageddon. Armageddon is already here - at least for the big banks - and it needs an entirely different solution. Spend our money protecting us, by ensuring the FDIC is properly funded, by throwing these too-big-to-fail banks into bankruptcy if they truly are insolvent, by preserving the healthy parts of these banks while in bankruptcy, and bringing them back out again so they function under much better safety and soundness regulations. We've had airlines functioning properly and safely for years while in bankruptcy, and there is no reason we can't do the same with banks.

Please, please, do not fall for some useless compromise or bipartisan agreement that gives the administration what it wants in the end. Kill this proposal here and now, protect us from this bailout, and deal with the real problem - the insolvency of the major banks, not the paper that is supposedly blocking their lending capabilities.

Sincerely,
Numerian September 21, 2008 - 12:26am
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Post by Stark »

In one of the other threads, someone suggested that the Constitution doesn't have any way of blocking this. Does this mean it's not technically unconstitutional, and that barring political resistance it can become law?
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Post by Crayz9000 »

IANAL, but a quick look at the Constitution states that Congress has basically all powers regarding financial matters, and the 16th amendment allowed increased taxation.

So, if Congress is stupid enough to sign this, then Einy and everyone else are right -- this is basically the end of Congress.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Stark wrote:In one of the other threads, someone suggested that the Constitution doesn't have any way of blocking this. Does this mean it's not technically unconstitutional, and that barring political resistance it can become law?
It's flatly unconstitutional, not that anyone in Congress or the administration cares. This goes way the fuck beyond regulation of commerce. Of course, almost everything else justified under the Commerce Clause does as well. If the Constitution doesn't say that Congress may do a thing, then it may not do that thing. The powers of Congress are defined in Article 1, Section 8, and unless one interprets Congress' power to "pay the Debts" in 1.8.1 to mean any debts it damn well pleases, rather than those of the United States, then there's nothing permitting this sort of action.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Rogue 9 wrote:If the Constitution doesn't say that Congress may do a thing, then it may not do that thing. The powers of Congress are defined in Article 1, Section 8, and unless one interprets Congress' power to "pay the Debts" in 1.8.1 to mean any debts it damn well pleases, rather than those of the United States, then there's nothing permitting this sort of action.
I hate to tell you this, but that is not how constitutional law is interpreted. The only things Congress is expressly not permitted to do are specifically listed under the "powers forbidden to Congress" clause in Article 1. If a thing is not spelled out one way or the other, however, it's a matter of judicial review which decides whether an action falls within the scope of Congress' powers or not.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

So, it comes down to this: try this bailout, risking even further debt and financial instability should it fail, or maintain Constitutional integrity by not signing this blank cheque to help those least in need of yet more cash.

Is there an option C to watching the world burn in two different ways?

EDIT: Oh, it gets better.
The Automatic Earth wrote:Lost among the hundreds of billion in rescue funds for financial institutions, supplied by the taxpayer, are the "reform"measures that are being considered. The core of the proposals is yet another transfer of power, this time over the financial world, in all its aspects, and on an international scale. Once again, the powers are to be taken away from the peoples representatives. This time the powers in question will be handed over to the Federal Reserve.

And that means that the status of America as a functioning democracy becomes ever more questionable. Yesterdays anouncement by the government, and the gigantic new rescue plan -the next in a by now long list- that will be unveiled within the next 72 hours, made some European leaders cast doubt on US claims of propagating a free market.

The way in which this process is undertaken can perhaps best be illustrated by the founding of the Federal Reserve in 1913. The Constitution explicitly and expressly reserves the control over the nations money supply to Congress. 95 years ago, an interpretation of this was accepted that stated that this meant Congress could hand over the control to whomever it pleased. And it decided, in a weird session, to cede its Constitutional power to the Federal Reserve, which was and is made up of a select group of private bankers.

But lets seek an analogy here. Say that I have, with the consent of both teams, been named the referee in a football match. Does that imply that I have the right to, at any point during the game, hand over the whistle to the local drunk, to the coach of one of the teams, or to the town bookmaker who has vested interest in a favorable outcome? It may be a hard question to answer, but I would venture to say no such right is implied.

Ben Bernanke was not elected by the people. Yet, he will be handed (even more of) the power of the nations money. And power over the economy is power over the nation itself. No matter what grand plans Congress comes up with, if you refuse to fund them, they aint happening.

Hank Paulson was not elected by the people. If you think theres no connection between Paulson being Goldmans CEO for 8 years, and the fact the Goldman will now be able to bury an insane amount of toilet paper in the contaminated RTC composter that is being set up in the capital's backrooms, at the same time that shorting Goldman is banned, then I want some of the drugs youre taking.
link

What in holy hell is an RTC? Good question.

So all the banks and big companies that lost money can take all their CDOs, CDSs, subprime stuff and every other shitty investment that backfired, and stuff them into a big trash can euphemistally called a Resolution Trust Corporation. This has two huge advantages - it legally protects them from debt repayment problems and other subtle bankruptcy problems, and it shores up their balance sheets and immediately enables their share price to skyrocket now the debt has gone bye-bye.

Immediately, previously-insolvent investment banks can now go and borrow money and act like this whole business was just a meaningless, forgetful night of snorting coke from a hookers ass.

Now the RTC has to be supported by Uncle Sam, who basically has to put the infrastructure budget for - well - pretty much everything on hold and start printing money 24/7.

The great American taxpayer gets left by massive T-bill repayments together with a multi-trillion debt that will take generations to pay off, and the people in investment banks can start buying Ferraris, golf courses and private jets.

Now if I could use an RTC, Id be happy. Just to emphasize how glorious this scheme really is, think about it as if an RTC existed for your family. Heres how it would work for mine:

I dump all my credit card debt, mortgages, car loans, college loans and every other damned rope around my neck and stick it in the RTC.

I go and get new credit cards and start all over again.

My neighbors figure out how to pay off the RTC while I cant decide on the trim for my new Mercedes.
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