About the McCain Health Care Plan

[Guardsman Bass]

This is confusing me, and Factcheck.org's explanation only left me more confused.

So, right now, the employer contribution to a plan isn't taxed. Under the McCain plan, this contribution would be taxed, but as income tax (not for payroll tax or the like), and individuals would be given a $2,500 tax credit (families would get a $5,000 tax credit), which they could apply to the new taxes on the plan and apparently actually come out ahead in most cases.

That would seem to argue against the idea that it undermines the employer-health-care system, although it doesn't do much for those without employer coverage ($12,000 for an average family plan minus a $5,000 tax credit is still $7,000 if you don't have an employer contributing to the plan). Does this tax credit affect employers at all, or their incentives to provide health care?

[SirNitram]

It tells them 'Go to hell', really. One of McCain's own surrogates, IIRC, said the goal was to increase coverage through the individual market. It should be noted: The individual market can exclude people willy-nilly on 'pre-existing'. HIPAA requires far more pre-existing to be covered.

Furthermore, the 'Across state lines' thing is the worst possible thing. Laws on what healthcare must provide vary by state. Remove the state barrier, and everyone moves to the state with the least requirements.

[Mr Bean]

*Edit I have no idea

*Edit MK II
Ok here's the thing, if the purposal goes through as written by McCain your average single payer heath insurance is 400$ a month. For a single person that's around 4800$ and it can be set up to be totally tax free.

However under the McCain plan that money becomes taxable, so you get some sort of tax cut to off-set it, for single people that's around 6000 a year in heath care costs assuming you don't get seriously sick in any way. so 6000$ is taxed at the rate of 35% a year for a total of 2,100. Of which to offset you get a 2000 tax cut, so congrats your taxs went up by 100$ Oh and good luck because as with so many people that 250$ every two weeks might be wasted money if something happens like I don't know you get sic, your premiums jump plus you pay out of pocket and now surprise your paying even MORE in taxes since what used to be untaxed is now taxed.

Best hope your major illnesses don't run over 5000$ a year(And that's if you have a handy family) it's currently set that if your sick and your dumping money directly into your heathcare you could at least rest easy knowing it could be via savings accounts, insurance or a few other methods be at least tax free money, and they would only tax you on the tiny amount left you had after crippling medical bills.

with the McCain plan.. not so much

[Sikon]

Ok here's the thing, if the purposal goes through as written by McCain your average single payer heath insurance is 400$ a month. For a single person that's around 4800$ and it can be set up to be totally tax free.

However under the McCain plan that money becomes taxable, so you get some sort of tax cut to off-set it, for single people that's around 6000 a year in heath care costs assuming you don't get seriously sick in any way

You pay around $4800 to $6000 a year on health insurance, $50000 to $60000 per ten years and so on?

I pay $50 a month, around 10 times less than that.

Of course, that's with a several-thousand-dollar annual deductible, meaning only large medical expenses beyond that would get covered, but such are precisely the emergency situations where it would be needed.

The figure would be higher in some age brackets, among other factors. It also would be higher if talking about family coverage rather than for a single individual, but you explicitly implied that you think single people pay that much.

If you really pay that much as a single young or middle-aged individual, unless you have particularly high chronic health issues, perhaps you should consider a different plan.

Here's a random illustration of one way someone could start on finding different plans for investigation (just a partial screenshot made in a minute by going to one of the first comparison websites popping up in a search and requesting a quote estimate):

[Broomstick]

You pay around $4800 to $6000 a year on health insurance, $50000 to $60000 per ten years and so on?

I pay $50 a month, around 10 times less than that.

Congratulations. You are young and healthy.

The figure would be higher in some age brackets, among other factors. It also would be higher if talking about family coverage rather than for a single individual, but you explicitly implied that you think single people pay that much.

If you really pay that much as a single young or middle-aged individual, unless you have particularly high chronic health issues, perhaps you should consider a different plan.

Bullshit.

Just having hayfever type allergies catapults you into the $300/month range. So does being over 40 or 45. I recently did an extensive search to purchase health insurance outside the "employer provided" realm and the cheapest I could get for myself was $350/month and that covered only the most catastrophic situations. What I would call adequate coverage was more like $600-800 per month.

Some other quite common situations that can jack up that premium are things like mildly elevated blood pressure, smoking, being overweight (even a little - you don't have to be obese for that to kick in), acid reflux. family history (even if you don't have the disease in question), gall bladder troubles, frequent urinary tract infections (which some women are prone to), any sort of STD, any sort of mental health issue, and various other sorts of ailments and conditions which you may or may not have any control over, all of which should be addressed, and any combination of which may price someone out of the market.

For "high chronic health issues" - the cheapest individual market policy Other Half could get right now it $1200 per month. For just him.

For the two of us - you know, a family - it was around $1400-1800/month.

I don't know how the fuck we're supposed to pay that, AND for out of pocket expenses, AND for little extravagances like rent, food, clothing, gas....

Oh, and women pay more than men, apparently because we have wombs and can get pregnant. Normal pregnancy and delivery in the US starts at $10,000 and goes up from there, yet most "family planning" (birth control) is not covered at all, tending to result either in babies or higher out of pocket costs for women.

[Broomstick]

Regarding your "shopping around" site:

The cheapest plan I could find was $131 per month for just myself, with a $7,500 deductible. That's what a woman my age in perfect health pays. Oh, and by the way - absolutely no maternity coverage whatsoever. Granted, I'm not expecting to get pregnant at this point, but if I did (and it could well be possible for the next 8-10 years) it would be high risk (that is, expensive) and I should whip through the deductible within just the first few months. Sure, I might get that the first year... but as soon as they look at my medical history they'll jack it up plenty the following year (trust me, I used to work in the industry). Oh, and this is a medical plan with high deductible and NO "health savings account" option. There are some other significant deficiencies in the plan as well, but that just for starters. They will NOT cover any pre-existing condition, whether or not you received treatment for it in the year prior. The deductible for out of network treatment is $15,000 per year for an individual - don't break your leg on vacation, OK? ALL obesity treatments are excluded, despite that being a common health problem. Any treatment for any treatment for "jaw, joint or head and neck neuromuscular disorder."

Deductibles for a family policy are $15,000 per year, $30,000 per year for out of network care. Don't get sick or injured on vacation, it will cost you plenty.

I'm not sure that qualifies as "adequate" health care coverage.

Tell me, what does the fine print on YOUR policy say?

[Norseman]

You know having read this article and reading this thread... I'm just so really, really glad that I'm in Norway. No really, I'm really, really glad I'm here. I mean seriously... Do you have any idea how screwed up your system sounds from over here?

[Darth Wong]

Thanks, Sikon. Thanks to you, I now know that health insurance in the US is actually affordable as long as you're the kind of person who statistically has almost no need of it. Similarly, I imagine that automobile insurance is incredibly cheap if you only ride a bicycle.

[Darth Wong]

This is confusing me, and Factcheck.org's explanation only left me more confused.

So, right now, the employer contribution to a plan isn't taxed. Under the McCain plan, this contribution would be taxed, but as income tax (not for payroll tax or the like), and individuals would be given a $2,500 tax credit (families would get a $5,000 tax credit), which they could apply to the new taxes on the plan and apparently actually come out ahead in most cases.

Indeed. Biden pointed out that the average family health care plan costs $12k/yr, which is obviously much more than $5k/yr, but neglected to mention that the family would pay much less than $12k in income taxes on a $12k taxable benefit. However, the proposal is very Republican, in the sense that it leaves certain people out in the cold. What if your health-care costs are going to be much higher than $12k for some reason? Then you have to apply for special subsidies, which McCain has assured will be there but which he has failed to describe in any sense, and which would only be offered to low-income families (again, the middle-class gets the "go fuck yourself" message).

That would seem to argue against the idea that it undermines the employer-health-care system, although it doesn't do much for those without employer coverage ($12,000 for an average family plan minus a $5,000 tax credit is still $7,000 if you don't have an employer contributing to the plan). Does this tax credit affect employers at all, or their incentives to provide health care?

The tax credit doesn't, but according to factcheck, McCain's proposal differs from Obama's plan quite markedly by not having any standards imposed on employers or insurers. Employers are not required to offer health-care no matter how large they are, and insurers are not required to offer coverage to high-risk customers.

As stated above, the Republican mindset on social programs, including health-care, is that some people should be left out in the cold, so that everyone else can save money. This has been the party's diseased mindset for as long as I have been politically aware, and McCain's plan is no exception. Got a serious health condition? Under McCain's plan, you're fucked. Got an employer who doesn't feel like offering health-care? Under McCain's plan, you're fucked. Unsatisfied with the coverage offered by the health care insurers? Too fucking bad; his plan explicitly rejects any kind of federal standard on what health insurers provide.

[Solauren]

The McCain health care plan is designed be confusing enough as to make it look like he's making healtcare more affordable and accessable, while in reality, it doesn't change a thing, and may actually make things worse for the working class.

[Broomstick]

Near as I can tell, there's no "maybe" about it - McCain's plan will fuck the working class, and will double-fuck anyone with any sort of chronic health problem no matter how minor.

Oddly enough, it looks like I soon will have insurance, at a price I can afford, but until that's a certain thing I don't want to discuss it in detail. I'll probably put it in the healthcare vent thread when it comes through. Not because it's a vent, because I think this will be a good thing, particularly for my husband (you know - the guy who has diabetes, a birth defect, partial paralysis, and hasn't been seen by a doctor for a year now. You know, the guy who had to drop two meds that might prevent future problems because we just can't fucking afford them out of pocket. Who hasn't had any of the monitoring tests that are considered part minimal care because one round of them costs the equivalent of a month of living expenses. Who hasn't had his vision or feet checked for a year, despite that also being minimum care for a diabetic, and foot care considered necessary for someone with diminished sensory capability in his lower extremities. That sort of happy horseshit.). I'll put it there because of the long saga and the many hoops we had to jump through to get it.

[Covenant]

You know having read this article and reading this thread... I'm just so really, really glad that I'm in Norway. No really, I'm really, really glad I'm here. I mean seriously... Do you have any idea how screwed up your system sounds from over here?

It sounds pretty screwed up here too. If it wasn't for family, I'd be homeless like that guy, but thankfully I have a support structure to help. I've applied to so many jobs that I could do blindfolded and one-armed and gotten turned down--sometimes for being overqualified and they wonder if you'd even stay if you got hired--and sometimes because my work history isn't extensive enough. It's murderous on the ego, and I have very little of it left. Pride is really something that you have no right to, and is a addictive luxury product like cocaine. And it'll keep you from getting ahead. I'm awaiting to see if the Library of Congress decides to hire me for an excellent job, and in the meantime I'm fighting to work at Home Depot. On Friday I'm interviewing for a security position, and wearing the same clothes to that interview that I wore talking to the heads of the LoC's periodicals department. The divide between raucous prosperity and crushing homeless poverty is as wide as a single stroke of the pen. If I get this D.C. job, I'm middle class. If I don't, I'm not making enough to live. And none of it is up to me. And it could get worse if we don't get someone in there who knows how to get jobs created.

[PainRack]

Hmmm..... Thank god the government approved medical insurance appears to be much more cheaper here as well....
I hate to imagine what would happen if Medishield or other commercial linked policies aren't available, the existing policies outside are quite expensive in terms of coverage actually provided.
And if the insurance association actually succeeds in copying the US(shudders)