National identity

[ray245]

In a world where immigration can get you a citizenship under certain condition, I want to ask you guys, do you think that a person who has migrated can identify with his newly adopted nation?

While it is possible for the kids of the immigrants to identify themselves in their parents adopted nation, will someone who spend his childhood or a large amount of his time living in another nation be able to consider himself as a member of his nation in terms of lifestyle and so on.

My mom is a Taiwanese who has moved here to singapore after she has married my Dad. However, she always identify herself as a Taiwanese more than a singaporean, in regards the weather, food and lifestyle.

So do you think that a person is truly able to develop a new national identity in his newly adopted nation?

[The Romulan Republic]

Depends on the person, the circumstances of the change, and their experiences in general.

Take my example. I was basically born a citizen of both the US and Canada. I lived 'till I was 12 in America, and since then I've lived in Canada. Personally, I consider myself a lot of things ahead of my citizenship as an American or Canadian. I don't really have loyalty to either. This however is a result of my personal experiences. Other people, with different experiences, will feel differently toward the country they live in, weather or not they have previously (or simultaneously) been a citizen of another country.

[Shroom Man 777]

That really depends on how much value a person puts in national identity. If the person identifies himself as "Murrican, fuck yeah!" or something, then changing national identities is about as hard as convincing a retarded jock to root for another sports team, or trying to get a Bible Thumper to consider other faiths.

If you're a third worlder out to immigrate from some place like the Philippines, like me, and you don't really give a crap about your national identity... then changing national identities won't be too hard if you don't value your original national identity overmuch.

But what is national identity? I like watching American TV shows, I speak English and even have a *little* difficulty with the local dialects, and most of the people in my province aren't even good with the National Language - which is mostly spoken only by those assholes in the northern parts of the country. I like eating Korean and Japanese food, I hate my local weather, and I'm not patriotic. A lot of my generation are like this and we want to get out of the country. Are we still Filipinos? Well, I guess so.

We want to go out and live in places like America or Canada or New Zealand. So, what is an American? What is a Canadian, or a New Zealand...er?

Is national identity all that important? I think it's one of those silly things that, when overvalued, just ends up causing more harm than good... like political alignments, religions, and sports teams. Look at football hooligans.

[mr friendly guy]

Since we are using personal examples to illustrate the point. Again things about my adopted country I identify with have been shaped by my experiences.

I move to Australia when I was four. I grew up in a place called Glenelg, one of the more affluent suburbs in Adelaide where we lived in a flat. Seemed a nice enough experience. Then we moved to another suburb around 1988 and got our own house.

At my new school I found out saying the word fuck was so wrong, but apparently racist comments weren't, or the teachers couldn't give a shit or felt collective punishment was awesome or something. Thinking back its most probably a less affluent suburb and judging by the property prices according to http://www.realestate.com.au/ it most probably was a lower socioeconomic area. In hindsight I realise this was only a few years after John Howard's anti-immigration rant in the election against Hawke, and that just encouraged racist shitheads to come out of the woodwork. Howard lost that election.

When I was in high school another racist dumb bitch Pauline Hanson came along, said we were being swamped by Asians then in the next statement said she wasn't racist. Yeah right. John Howard who was then Prime Minister did jack and shit against this dum cow. This again encouraged racist shit heads to come out with some fuckwit mayor in redneck town in South Australia saying mixed kids were "mongrels" and then using equivocation and a dictionary to defend it. Moreover, I found apologist at work, some of my friends who couldn't see that it was racist. But then, lets be blunt, they were either native born Australians or British and never experienced any racial abuse in their whole life.

At least the ALP had the will to stand up to Pauline Hanson the the subsequent One Nation party despite the popularity they received. Of the Liberals only Jeff Kennett had the balls to do so. Nevertheless it was shocking to see how much support this dumb bitch received.

Needless to say we have never voted for the Liberals again in a Federal election, not while Howard was there. These days with our (perhaps now ended) mining boom driven predominantly by Chinese demand for iron ore (and it looks like China is only taking a breather, it still needs ore to develop and urbanise) the anti Asian sentiment died down. Of course, I could have pointed out that even when Pauline Hanson's support was strongest, our major export partner was Japan, (shock, horror, an Asian country), but hey, no one listens to me. And of course, these days if you want a scapegoat to blame, its The Muslims

So in answer to the question "do you think that a person who has migrated can identify with his newly adopted nation?", its kind of a bit hard in one respect when it seems your nation doesn't want you. So like the previous poster I also consider myself a lot of things ahead of being an Australian. I like to think of myself as a citizen of the world. Australia is just my base of operations.

In terms of lifestyle - I do do things which I suppose are "Australian". For example we have barbeques, I enjoy watching Australian sports eg AFL. However I don't think I want to eat too much of the Australian food given that like Americans we are becoming a nation of fat people. I will stick with rice and mainly Chinese cuisine and dabble occasionally with Italian pasta +/- occasional fast food. At least I haven't become overweight or obese.

To answer your question about identifying oneself in your adopted country, I identify myself as an Australian and I support us in sports, such as beating the English in cricket. I even support the under arm incident against the Kiwis. However because of my experience I can't get worked up about our national day. I just see it as another holiday and time off work. I guess that also means I don't feel particularly patriotic about our country.

Oh, as a product of schools curricula promoting national pride, I know the words of the National Anthem. Both verses. I don't know why I bothered considering anecdotally most Australians I met don't even know the first verse, yet alone the more obscure second verse. And that includes Dr John Hewson who first proposed that as a criteria for citizenship. Perhaps if bogans knew the second verse, they might be more tolerant since the song states

for those who have come across the seas, we have boundless plains to share
With courage let us all combine to
Advance Australia Fair

Or we could make this our national anthem, I find it much nicer.

The short answer to Ray's question is that I suppose its possible for first generation migrants to identify with their adopted homeland. Its a matter of degrees and that is dependent on experiences in your adopted country, the good and that bad. I hope that helps.

[Stark]

I find nationalism to generally be stronger among the more narrow minded, and the kind of persistent identification with some other country (often one the individual barely remembers or has never seen) is fucking wierd. I've heard it suggested that ex-pats can be even more nationalist than people who don't leave, since their 'isolation' in a new country makes them turn inward, but it's call crazy to me. Then again, I'm a New Zealander living in Australia, so I have no idea what it's like for those who have cultural or ethnic differences beyond 'holy shit Australians are racist shitbags'. I left Aotearoa when I was 8, and I don't see the point in even mentioning I'm not Australian given the absurd cultural closeness. I don't feel any kind of identification or loyalty to either nation.

[Samuel]

For my "irrational devotion" needs, I go with dedication to people's whose names start with S. For nationalism, I'm a social contract guy- I'll give what I get. And, yes, I count the functional society as something I am getting. I could probably transition to another country and give it my loyalty.

Of course, for my families identification, all identify with the United States. Which is ironic given that one set of grandparents were intered (step), one set are buried in another country and the third branch fought on the Confederate side.

[TrailerParkJawa]

It really depends on the person. There are plenty of Chinese here in America would become citizens and adopt their new homeland. It doesn't mean they stop being ethnic Chinese. My friends dad moved here from China almost 40 years ago. He is still easily marked as someone not born here but when he went back to China about 5 years ago for the 1st time he realized it wasn't his home anymore and that he really was an American now.

I find the immigrant experience to be fascinating. And it doesn't have to be people from other countries. People move to California from other states and even after 30 years of living in California they still consider themselves citizens of the state they left despite having never been back. I personally think some of these people would be shocked to go "home" and see that it isnt the place of their memories.

[hongi]

So do you think that a person is truly able to develop a new national identity in his newly adopted nation?

What is a national identity?

I don't think definining national identity based on common traits, hobbies, etc is the right thing to do. Sure a lot of Australians love tennis, but there are plenty that don't. Are they not Australian? A lot of Australians love the outdoors, but there are plenty who've lived their entire lives in the city. Are they not Australian?

IMPO, if you consider yourself to be an [insert country name here]-ian, then you are one. Lets say an immigrant comes to Australia and gets a citizenship. If he still considers himself to be a Taiwanese, Nigerian, American, then I think he's an Australian In Citizenship Only. It's his personal choice to consider this land his homeland.

[Ypoknons]

Its such a personal choice. I know some people who have lived their entire teenage lives in Hong Kong wish they were somewhere else; and then I've seen the opposite.

As someone with three passports and has lived for extended periods in three locations (the passports and locations don't match up), I feel nationalism touches me so little. And I think people bringing with them their identities previous location to a new one is a good thing for the new location - they introduce different ideas and in the best scenario, foster understanding between people.

[Glocksman]

I find the immigrant experience to be fascinating. And it doesn't have to be people from other countries. People move to California from other states and even after 30 years of living in California they still consider themselves citizens of the state they left despite having never been back. I personally think some of these people would be shocked to go "home" and see that it isnt the place of their memories.

My Grandmother emigrated to Canada 20 years ago, and to this day refers to herself as a 'Kentuckian'.
My Uncle Mark, who emigrated with her calls himself an 'Albertan'.

[montypython]

I find nationalism to generally be stronger among the more narrow minded, and the kind of persistent identification with some other country (often one the individual barely remembers or has never seen) is fucking wierd. I've heard it suggested that ex-pats can be even more nationalist than people who don't leave, since their 'isolation' in a new country makes them turn inward, but it's call crazy to me. Then again, I'm a New Zealander living in Australia, so I have no idea what it's like for those who have cultural or ethnic differences beyond 'holy shit Australians are racist shitbags'. I left Aotearoa when I was 8, and I don't see the point in even mentioning I'm not Australian given the absurd cultural closeness. I don't feel any kind of identification or loyalty to either nation.

I've generally thought how bringing similar cultures and dissimilar cultures together helps make issues like nationalism less of an issue and enables people to see each other in a common community more.

[Pelranius]

I'm born here in America (well, maybe here isn't quite the right term. California and Maine are on completely separate sides of the country). I must admit that I really didn't start identifying strongly as American until I was thrown into some podunk public international school in Taiwan. I'll come out and say that I didn't really get along with the kids there, who were usually either ROC citizens whose parents had worked aboard or those with dual citizenship. Not exactly my proudest moment.

[Ypoknons]

Its pretty common; we studied that in anthropology. It is similar to how Japanese-Brazilians identified as Japanese in Brazil because they were Japanese relative to the mainstream but Brazilian in Japan because of the way they were seen there.

[weemadando]

Australia is an interesting example. We've got a culture which doesn't have much history to it. We're an immigrant culture - everyone who comes in brings a bit of their own culture.

Some people accept that, some people think that we're still 1700s Britain.

That said, I would really appreciate it if some of the groups made that little more effort to integrate into Australian society. Where I work (Box Hill in Victoria) can best be described as a section of Hong Kong/Thailand/Vietnam directly transported to Australia. 95% of the stores are Asian, with non-english signage and non-english speaking staff. Don't get me wrong - I don't think this is a totally bad thing, as I love me some asian food and having a direct line on every awesome Chinese/Thai/HK film that comes out is also handy. It just irks me that there are some 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants in that area who still don't have an acceptable level (read: can communicate) of spoken or written English.

Compare that to the African immigrants in Hobart, who I think were so wonderfully positive. Though very poor, they brought so much to the community, with the parents having an amazing work ethic, the children often picking up on this too, them making a really concerted to learn english and absorb some of the culture. Add to this the fact that very rapidly we had African speciality stores opened by community collectives (AfriTas restaurant was a notable one) and all I can say, is that I really appreciated what that community did.

[Darth Wong]

In a world where immigration can get you a citizenship under certain condition, I want to ask you guys, do you think that a person who has migrated can identify with his newly adopted nation?

It probably depends on why he emigrated? If he fled terrible persecution in his homeland, he is probably proud to call himself a citizen of his new country. Other reasons might produce less of a dramatic change in self-identification.

[Glocksman]

In a world where immigration can get you a citizenship under certain condition, I want to ask you guys, do you think that a person who has migrated can identify with his newly adopted nation?

It probably depends on why he emigrated? If he fled terrible persecution in his homeland, he is probably proud to call himself a citizen of his new country. Other reasons might produce less of a dramatic change in self-identification.

Age also probably plays a part.
My Grandmother was in her 60's (she's now 91) when she married a Canadian and emigrated to Canada, whereas my Uncle was much younger.

[bobalot]

I am a migrant to Australia. Lived most of my lift here. The reason why we eventually ended up here is because my family are a discriminated minority from where we come from. I ended up in the working class western suburbs of Sydney where most other migrants ended up. I love Australia because it gave me every opportunity at life. A excellent education, universal health care, a social welfare network (was real great when both my parents got sacked during the recession),etc. If you put in the hard work, you can really make something of yourself. If you get hit by hard times you got a safety net to help you back onto your feet.It's not perfect, but I reckon it's a great place to live.

When it comes to racism, yeah, we got some racist tools. Strangely enough, I find most of them come from the country or richer eastern suburbs (which is almost uniformly Anglo-Saxon).

[hongi]

That said, I would really appreciate it if some of the groups made that little more effort to integrate into Australian society. Where I work (Box Hill in Victoria) can best be described as a section of Hong Kong/Thailand/Vietnam directly transported to Australia. 95% of the stores are Asian, with non-english signage and non-english speaking staff. Don't get me wrong - I don't think this is a totally bad thing, as I love me some asian food and having a direct line on every awesome Chinese/Thai/HK film that comes out is also handy. It just irks me that there are some 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants in that area who still don't have an acceptable level (read: can communicate) of spoken or written English.

I live in Eastwood, which is a suburb of Sydney that is significantly Korean/Chinese. There's a similar issue (probably not to your extent) here. Some of the residents have been for years, but still consider themselves Korean/Chinese and not Australian. If they have that mentality, then how can they possibly 'become' Australian? ray245's mum sees herself as Taiwanese, and if she keeps thinking of herself as Taiwanese, nothing will change.

For the younger generation though, it's not so clear cut. They were either born here and think of themselves as natural Australians from the start, or they're struggling to fit their nationality with their heritage.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

For the most part, whether or not one retains one's originality depends on how large one's comfort zone is. From my experience, people who are more secure with things that he is most familiar with, tend to stick to his or her original identity.

Of course, there are some who attempt to justify sticking to that original identity by saying it's superior etc. etc. I have seen my own fair share with Singaporeans abroad, which in my opinion is unjustified. Then again, lots of people have superiority complex, and it's shocking to them to believe that there are others who are superior to them.

[Pelranius]

Australia is an interesting example. We've got a culture which doesn't have much history to it. We're an immigrant culture - everyone who comes in brings a bit of their own culture.

Some people accept that, some people think that we're still 1700s Britain.

That said, I would really appreciate it if some of the groups made that little more effort to integrate into Australian society. Where I work (Box Hill in Victoria) can best be described as a section of Hong Kong/Thailand/Vietnam directly transported to Australia. 95% of the stores are Asian, with non-english signage and non-english speaking staff. Don't get me wrong - I don't think this is a totally bad thing, as I love me some asian food and having a direct line on every awesome Chinese/Thai/HK film that comes out is also handy. It just irks me that there are some 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants in that area who still don't have an acceptable level (read: can communicate) of spoken or written English.

Compare that to the African immigrants in Hobart, who I think were so wonderfully positive. Though very poor, they brought so much to the community, with the parents having an amazing work ethic, the children often picking up on this too, them making a really concerted to learn english and absorb some of the culture. Add to this the fact that very rapidly we had African speciality stores opened by community collectives (AfriTas restaurant was a notable one) and all I can say, is that I really appreciated what that community did.

I've had similar experiences in California. Poorer Asian immigrants and Hispanics go to great lengths to adapt to their new surroundings. On the other hand, people with money and the well educated immigrants try to continuously stick with their own crowd. You don't see segregated neighborhoods, but the shopping establishments are divided into ones where the middle class Asian immigrants go and the ones where everyone else goes, generally speaking. That was more prevalent in the Bay Area than Orange County, though. My mom won't get citizenship, her English skills are so bad that I have to translate for her to the neighborhood association and utilities companies and she as a rule only patronizes Asian establishments except when the nearest supermarket or chain restaurant is having a sale. She probably spoke English better once, as she did get a Master's in Computer Science from UT Dallas, but it's rather sad to see her sit around the house instead of going out and socializing with people who aren't of the precise class and ethnic background as her.