What would it take to fall out of love with the right-wing?

[Darth Wong]

I've been watching American politics for years and I have to wonder: just what would it take for right-wing politics to actually fall out of favour in the US, to the point where a majority of people would openly describe themselves as "liberal" or "leftist" and where "right-wing" might actually be used as a perjorative term, the way "liberal" is now?

It seems to me that the right-wing can do no wrong in America. Right-wingers can start a war on fraudulent pretenses, run up hundreds of billions of dollars in deficits, fire scores of qualified, experienced employees for ideological impurity, use the Justice Department to settle personal and political grudges, hopelessly mismanage both an occupation and an economy, tear down the wall of separation between church and state, make fools of themselves by championing a brain-dead woman's "right to life", and yet ... most Americans are still proud to call themselves "conservative". The confidence of the American public in conservative ideology has not been shaken at all; they just think that this particular band of idiots has somehow implemented that ideology incorrectly.

Seriously, what would it take? Is it impossible?

[Patrick Degan]

An economic crash during a Republikan presidency that would make the Great Depression seem a tea party by comparison. It would never stamp out conservatism, but it would discredit them for decades. We're seeing a taste of this just with the present financial meltdown and its confluence with the upcoming general election and the death-spiral the McCain campaign has gone into.

[Surlethe]

I wonder how much of it has to do with a total and abiding mistrust of government? Many conservatives I've known sincerely believe that governments can do nothing right and that government is a necessary evil to keep us from killing each other. I've seen enough of it to get the impression that this is a pretty general national sentiment that crosses party lines. Supposing that my impression is correct, if Americans can go from seeing the government as a completely hopeless boondoggle that fucks up everything it touches to seeing it as an admittedly imperfect tool for achieving the will of the people, you might see a shift in national sentiment from "conservative" to "liberal".

[Darth Wong]

An economic crash during a Republikan presidency that would make the Great Depression seem a tea party by comparison. It would never stamp out conservatism, but it would discredit them for decades. We're seeing a taste of this just with the present financial meltdown and its confluence with the upcoming general election and the death-spiral the McCain campaign has gone into.

Yeah, but that's only pushing the Democrats into power. It is not making "left-wing" or "liberal" any more popular as a self-description. In fact, Obama has to carefully delineate himself as a sort of not-really-liberal politician in order to appeal to the so-called "centrist" vote (which is actually right-wing). He hastens to say that he opposes gay marriage. He hastens to say that he is not promoting any kind of socialism. He hastens to say that his health-care plan is not socialized medicine. That's not left-wing; in Canada, we call that the Conservative Party.

In this election, Americans are choosing between right-wing politics and far right-wing politics.

[Johonebesus]

An economic crash during a Republikan presidency that would make the Great Depression seem a tea party by comparison. It would never stamp out conservatism, but it would discredit them for decades. We're seeing a taste of this just with the present financial meltdown and its confluence with the upcoming general election and the death-spiral the McCain campaign has gone into.

I'm not sure even that would do it. I expect even then the reaction would be the same as what Wong is describing now: "it's not conservatism, but these particular crooks." How many folks here said that Shrub couldn't retain any political credibility or power after Katrina practically wiped out an entire city?

As long as the media continues to act as a mouthpiece for republican propaganda and avoids objective analysis and fact finding like the plague, I'm not sure anything can break the people's love of conservatism.

[Darth Wong]

I wonder how much of it has to do with a total and abiding mistrust of government?

None whatsoever. Americans are full of shit when they say they have an unusual mistrust of government; it's one of those Big Lies, like "rugged individualism". In reality, you have more trust in your government than a lot of other countries. In some countries, there would have been riots in the streets at some of the shit the Bush Administration has pulled.

Americans only have a mistrust of socialism; any government program which does not sound "socialist" in any way has the implicit trust of Americans; that's why you imbeciles all tramped happily into Iraq despite your allies telling you that you were full of shit.

Many conservatives I've known sincerely believe that governments can do nothing right and that government is a necessary evil to keep us from killing each other.

Yeah, right. And yet, these same people probably love the military-industrial complex and think that every black man who's ever been executed in Texas was guilty. As I said, Big Lie.

I've seen enough of it to get the impression that this is a pretty general national sentiment that crosses party lines.

No, it's something that Americans love to say about themselves, regardless of whether it's actually true.

[SirNitram]

An economic crash during a Republikan presidency that would make the Great Depression seem a tea party by comparison. It would never stamp out conservatism, but it would discredit them for decades. We're seeing a taste of this just with the present financial meltdown and its confluence with the upcoming general election and the death-spiral the McCain campaign has gone into.

Yeah, but that's only pushing the Democrats into power. It is not making "left-wing" or "liberal" any more popular as a self-description. In fact, Obama has to carefully delineate himself as a sort of not-really-liberal politician in order to appeal to the so-called "centrist" vote (which is actually right-wing). He hastens to say that he opposes gay marriage. He hastens to say that he is not promoting any kind of socialism. He hastens to say that his health-care plan is not socialized medicine. That's not left-wing; in Canada, we call that the Conservative Party.

In this election, Americans are choosing between right-wing politics and far right-wing politics.

Because we're not in Great Depression territory yet. You can bet if Obama's elected, and we do hit the bottom, it'll instantly be his fault.

It'd be his fault if it hit November 5th this year.

[Patrick Degan]

I wonder how much of it has to do with a total and abiding mistrust of government? Many conservatives I've known sincerely believe that governments can do nothing right and that government is a necessary evil to keep us from killing each other. I've seen enough of it to get the impression that this is a pretty general national sentiment that crosses party lines. Supposing that my impression is correct, if Americans can go from seeing the government as a completely hopeless boondoggle that fucks up everything it touches to seeing it as an admittedly imperfect tool for achieving the will of the people, you might see a shift in national sentiment from "conservative" to "liberal".

When enough people get in bad enough trouble, the first thing they do, liberal or conservative, is demand the government do something about it when it's undeniably obvious that they're in shit they can't get themselves out of. This happened in the Depression, and even today, you're starting to see more people swing toward the idea of universal health care because too many people have gotten fucked over by the insurance companies or have actually been impoverished by medical bills they can't hope to pay.

Take any mouth-breathing Rush listener and put him into a situation where him or his family has a medical crisis, a very expensive one, and he has no insurance or means to pay the bills. If he was offered a universal health care card he could use at any hospital, you think he'd refuse it?

[Patrick Degan]

An economic crash during a Republikan presidency that would make the Great Depression seem a tea party by comparison. It would never stamp out conservatism, but it would discredit them for decades. We're seeing a taste of this just with the present financial meltdown and its confluence with the upcoming general election and the death-spiral the McCain campaign has gone into.

Yeah, but that's only pushing the Democrats into power. It is not making "left-wing" or "liberal" any more popular as a self-description. In fact, Obama has to carefully delineate himself as a sort of not-really-liberal politician in order to appeal to the so-called "centrist" vote (which is actually right-wing). He hastens to say that he opposes gay marriage. He hastens to say that he is not promoting any kind of socialism. He hastens to say that his health-care plan is not socialized medicine. That's not left-wing; in Canada, we call that the Conservative Party.

In this election, Americans are choosing between right-wing politics and far right-wing politics.

True. But even under present circumstances, things aren't bad enough to force the sort of wholesale sea-change in the American political landscape we're talking about here. Hence Obama having to weave the minefield as you describe. It's pathetic, I know, but this is how things are in a country which has been subjected to nearly two decades of krypto-fascist propaganda with no Fairness Doctrine in place to require countervailing voices to call bullshit on it or prevent propaganda shows from being deliberately mislabeled as "news programmes".

[Mr Bean]

Simple, everyone needs to die. Or to point, everyone over the age of thirty three or so needs to die. Or rather, once everyone born before 1975 is dead or crazy old, you'll see the current Right wing love gone. The problem is you had a solid ten years of Reagan Brainwashing that simply can not be removed by anything but time. People remember the right wing and harken back to Reagen despite the fact things were not much better then. Shut your mouth Reagan was perfection! All it will take to make the Republican's great again is another Jesus Reagan(IE Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan) who is perfect in every way.


Let me start again
People are alive and voting today who were born believing that white people were the Master race, that you could be un-american. There are people alive today(In their 50's and 60s) who could go into their own White only shops and drink from their white only water-fountains. These are not people who question establishment. These are not people who are curious about the outside world. These people's world view was shaped to such a great extent in the area they were born in and where they lived. They can't change, the've had twenty years to change and they still vote the same way. They don't vote their interests, they vote first for their prejudices not their interests.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I want to say that America would need to become more like the "liberal" areas of California but even here there are a lot of staunch right wing types would never ever admit fault. Just look at Prop 8. and how close the race is. California is in for really bad times economically and the big debate is about gay people.

[Darth Wong]

I'm curious how many of you buy into this "Americans deeply mistrust the government" bullshit. It seems to me that most Americans are pretty big on the death penalty; what could be a greater example of trust in government than to trust them to execute citizens without getting it wrong? How about torturing people? Most Americans seem to be OK with trusting them to use that power responsibly too.

PS. How about the FDA? How many Americans implicitly trust the FDA's judgements on pharmaceuticals, despite the voluminous evidence that the FDA is under enormous internal pressure to ramrod approvals through the system, not to mention the fact that the FDA allows pharmaceutical manufacturers to certify their own testing results?

[Patrick Degan]

I'm curious how many of you buy into this "Americans deeply mistrust the government" bullshit. It seems to me that most Americans are pretty big on the death penalty; what could be a greater example of trust in government than to trust them to execute citizens without getting it wrong?

For the greater majority, no matter what side of the ideological fence they're on, it's crap. The ones who say they do "mistrust" it right up until they need Uncle Sam to bail them out. And when it's their own party in power, they'll follow them barefoot into hell if they're told the right things they want to hear and think.

[The Romulan Republic]

Simple, everyone needs to die. Or to point, everyone over the age of thirty three or so needs to die. Or rather, once everyone born before 1975 is dead or crazy old, you'll see the current Right wing love gone. The problem is you had a solid ten years of Reagan Brainwashing that simply can not be removed by anything but time. People remember the right wing and harken back to Reagen despite the fact things were not much better then. Shut your mouth Reagan was perfection! All it will take to make the Republican's great again is another Jesus Reagan(IE Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan) who is perfect in every way.

This is more or less right. Sure, their are older people who are liberal, but they seem to be a progressively smaller part of the population. One of the striking things about the primaries, specifically in the southern states, was how Obama's numbers got progressively higher with each younger age group.

However, this thread seems to be somewhat steriotyping of Americans. Yes, the majority is conservative by the standards of the world, but their is a large liberal minority still in America. Few things piss me off like people who would not steriotype any other group thinking its fine to do it with Americans.

Unfortunately, the conservative majority influences the bulk of the main stream media, and at least until recently firmly controlled the government, effectively drowning out the liberal parts of the country. American conservatives tend to be pushy and aggressively vocal, making them appear to be an even more dominant force than they actually are.

[Dominus Atheos]

I still think a McCain presidency might do it. Conservatism is clearly falling out of favor with the American electorate, but it's probably only temporary. American voters have a very short memory, and by 2012 they probably won't remember why they felt that way. But if the economy is allowed to crash badly enough that every family feels it, feels it for a long time, and it happens under a republican president, that might be enough to burn this feeling into the mind of every voter. Of course the democrats have to appear as a viable alternative, and if they keep up their current strategy of rolling over every opportunity they get (I think the $700b giveaway would have been an excellent opportunity to start), then they won't.

Hell, if Obama had the spine to, he could start using the word conservative as an insult right now. It would probably go over pretty well in this political climate. All he has to do is repeat some buzzwords like "Socialism for the rich, free market for the poor" or "steal from the poor to feed the rich", and they would probably catch on. Just copy the strategy of the right.

[Patrick Degan]

I still think a McCain presidency might do it. Conservatism is clearly falling out of favor with the American electorate, but it's probably only temporary. American voters have a very short memory, and by 2012 they probably won't remember why they felt that way. But if the economy is allowed to crash badly enough that every family feels it, feels it for a long time, and it happens under a republican president, that might be enough to burn this feeling into the mind of every voter. Of course the democrats have to appear as a viable alternative, and if they keep up their current strategy of rolling over every opportunity they get (I think the $700b giveaway would have been an excellent opportunity to start), then they won't.

Hell, if Obama had the spine to, he could start using the word conservative as an insult right now. It would probably go over pretty well in this political climate. All he has to do is repeat some buzzwords like "Socialism for the rich, free market for the poor" or "steal from the poor to feed the rich", and they would probably catch on. Just copy the strategy of the right.

Still in your little fantasy-world, I see.

[K. A. Pital]

Economic crush of such magnitude to have people wandering hungry on the streets en masse. Nothing short of that.

[Darth Wong]

I still think a McCain presidency might do it.

Tell me, what do you think the last 8 years of spectacular mismanagement, corruption, and flagrant disregard for the law indicate about your "incompetent right-wingers will discredit the right-wing in America" theory?

Hint: it doesn't work. 8 years ago, if I'd given you a list of all the misdeeds of the Bush administration, you would have confidently predicted the total destruction of right-wing politics in America by now.

[Dominus Atheos]

I still think a McCain presidency might do it.

Tell me, what do you think the last 8 years of spectacular mismanagement, corruption, and flagrant disregard for the law indicate about your "incompetent right-wingers will discredit the right-wing in America" theory?

Hint: it doesn't work. 8 years ago, if I'd given you a list of all the misdeeds of the Bush administration, you would have confidently predicted the total destruction of right-wing politics in America by now.

Have you seen the latest poll numbers? They show Obama winning by over 100 electoral votes. Right wing politics are pretty destroyed right now. But like I said, by the next election most people will have forgotten all about how they feel right now. For better or worse, there are a lot of people who haven't been directly affected by the economic crisis. sure, they've heard about it on the news, and they might even know someone who has lost their job due to it. But unless the crisis gets a lot worse, and a lot of people lose their jobs, it's not going to make enough of a lasting impression. John McCain's policies could push the economy into that state.

[Darth Wong]

Obama's winning, so I'm wrong? Looks like someone doesn't know how to read.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 7#p2923417

[The Romulan Republic]

Have you seen the latest poll numbers? They show Obama winning by over 100 electoral votes. Right wing politics are pretty destroyed right now. But like I said, by the next election most people will have forgotten all about how they feel right now. For better or worse, there are a lot of people who haven't been directly affected by the economic crisis. sure, they've heard about it on the news, and they might even know someone who has lost their job due to it. But unless the crisis gets a lot worse, and a lot of people lose their jobs, it's not going to make enough of a lasting impression. John McCain's policies could push the economy into that state.

And they could also lead to a war with Iran, a Christian Supreme Court, and the collapse of the US as a major power. The stakes are way to high for the "give them rope to hang themselves with" strategy.

Anyway, since when was it a good plan to depend on your adversary's incompetence?

[Darth Raptor]

So we need the crisis to get worse to prevent it from becoming worse? The objective harm wrought by an economic disaster is desirable for the fleeting damage it might cause to an abstract concept? Are you even hearing yourself, DA?

[chaoschristian]

I'm curious how many of you buy into this "Americans deeply mistrust the government" bullshit.

I do not. It is one of the 'Big Lies' of the modern era, along with the Cowboy/Rugged Individual Mythology that is unfortunately so pervasive in large parts of our culture.

What would it take for America writ large to reject the myth of 'conservatism'?

I think it would take education.

Our education system and standards suck. Intellectual curiousity isn't prized, being educated or intellectual is actually frowned upon in both subtle and overt ways through media and everyday culture. We lack, as a nation, the educational rigour that I think is necessary to openly and honestly embrace a progressive agenda and reject the lie that is modern 'conservatism' that has been foisted upon the American public and watonly embraced by large parts of it.

We lack, as a culture, the ability to reject fear. I think that really shows up in the unholy marriage that exists between fundementalist Christians and neo-conservatives in this country. But it exists within the minds and hearts of more moderate Christians and conservatives as well. Too many aspects of our culture highten fear of the outsider or the unknown, and that shuts down our ability to confront conflict and move beyond fear.

I think overall that it would be safe to say that we exist at a rather low level on Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs as a society. We seem to stuck in 'Safety' mode right now. And it's the combination of low value of education (real, critical-thinking, science based education, not this teaching-to-the-test-SOL crap that gets passed off as education) and a heightened sense of fear that's keeping us there.

We need to get over ourselves as 'The Greatest Nation on Earth!' and realize our place as one of many nations that share a planet and it's diminishing resources; that our particular way of life isn't supreme, but just one particular way of life; and that we are not destined by God to lead or impose our will, or hasten the eschaton or whatever.

[Darth Fanboy]

The first step will happen when the Baby Boomers start to die off in earnest, only because in the right wing and in rural america. This generation currently holds more than its share of power and I think that younger generations are gradually becoming more liberal in comparison. This is beginning, albeit very slowly.

My hope is that the younger generations will create a more secular America as well. This will weaken the presence of the die hard bible thumpers that make the current crop of Republicans scarier than they have ever been. Right now as it stands you can still be considered a liberal if you are fiscally conservative, believe in the free market, but don't want to allow prayer in schools.

The third, least realistic, and furthest away event would have to be the time when America gets rid of the two party system, or realistic alternate parties develop. Right now Republicans are going to vote for McCain even though they do not like him because he represents they feel he would better represent their interests than Obama. Fundamentalists weild influence over people that do not share many of their hatreds because all of the Republicans are forced into one camp under the two party system.

[Dominus Atheos]

Obama's winning, so I'm wrong? Looks like someone doesn't know how to read.

Speak for yourself. My first post had the other thing that would have to happen:

Hell, if Obama had the spine to, he could start using the word conservative as an insult right now. It would probably go over pretty well in this political climate. All he has to do is repeat some buzzwords like "Socialism for the rich, free market for the poor" or "steal from the poor to feed the rich", and they would probably catch on. Just copy the strategy of the right.