Malaysia ban girls from being too 'boyish' and doing yoga

[ray245]

KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters Life!) - Not content with banning women from wearing trousers, Malaysia's top Islamic council now wants a ban on yoga, according to a report on state news agency Bernama.
The National Fatwa Council's Deputy Director-General Othman Mustapha told reporters after a seminar on Islamic jurisprudence on Thursday that the announcement would be made soon.
Professor Zakaria Stapa of Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia's Islamic Studies Centre told the seminar on Wednesday that Muslims who had taken up yoga should stop practising as it could damage their faith, Bernama said.
Last week the Fatwa Council decreed that tomboyish behaviour by girls, including wearing trousers, was immoral as it may lead to the practise of lesbian sex.
Gay sex is prohibited in this country of 27 million people where over half of the population is Muslim.

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... 0220081029

I'm glad we seperated from Malyasia.

[AniThyng]

I'm glad unlike you guys, we actually came close to changing the government. You're still throwing rocks from a glass house there buddy, even if Goh Chok Tong said "Gay is okay" or whatever the heck he actually said.

Just a few things:

1) Non-muslims would not be affected by this Fatwa

2) If you seriously believe they can stretch the definition to include women who wear trousers AND ENFORCE IT, I laugh because it is about as absurd as Australia's "internet filtering", and cry because I still have to sacrifice my dignity to argue about this on SDNET. I assure you, plenty of pious muslim women wear pants in this country, and this will not stop them.

3) Gays and lesbians have sex anyway and exist in fair numbers in the country, illegal or not. This latest fatwa does not actually change anything (besides making Malaysia look retarded to newsreaders, of course.). and if anything, the more ridiculous edicts they release, the more stupid they look to the populace at large. Malaysia is also homophobic. Give it some time, you know, let the next generation grow up and displace their elders.

[Samuel]

Last week the Fatwa Council decreed that tomboyish behavior by girls, including wearing trousers, was immoral as it may lead to the practice of lesbian sex.

This reminds me of the justification for banning sodomy by Justinian I:everyone knows that Sodomy causes earthquakes

Maybe next they will ban rock and roll because it is music of Satan... they did that already, didn't they? Bloody puritans- this is what happens when they seize control of the government.

Still, can anyone explain to me how on Earth wearing trousers leads to the practice of lesbian sex? That is the greatest use of the slippery slope fallacy I have ever seem... no, that requires there to be a connect between cause and effect. That is the greatest non-sequitur I have seen in a while.

1) Non-muslims would not be affected by this Fatwa

Isn't leaving Islam punishable by death?

2) If you seriously believe they can stretch the definition to include women who wear trousers AND ENFORCE IT, I laugh because it is about as absurd as Australia's "internet filtering", and cry because I still have to sacrifice my dignity to argue about this on SDNET. I assure you, plenty of pious muslim women wear pants in this country, and this will not stop them.

Yeah, I thought that about the government enforcing laws against sodomy in the US... guess what? They could and did enforce them. You need to show the government isn't crazy enough to enforce the law, because they ARE crazy enough to pass it.

3) Gays and lesbians have sex anyway and exist in fair numbers in the country, illegal or not. This latest fatwa does not actually change anything (besides making Malaysia look retarded to newsreaders, of course.). and if anything, the more ridiculous edicts they release, the more stupid they look to the populace at large. Malaysia is also homophobic. Give it some time, you know, let the next generation grow up and displace their elders.

So it isn't a big deal because Malaysia is already fucked up?

[AniThyng]

This reminds me of the justification for banning sodomy by Justinian I:everyone knows that Sodomy causes earthquakes

Maybe next they will ban rock and roll because it is music of Satan... they did that already, didn't they? Bloody puritans- this is what happens when they seize control of the government.

Still, can anyone explain to me how on Earth wearing trousers leads to the practice of lesbian sex? That is the greatest use of the slippery slope fallacy I have ever seem... no, that requires there to be a connect between cause and effect. That is the greatest non-sequitur I have seen in a while.

Preaching to the choir, you will have no argument from me here.

Isn't leaving Islam punishable by death?

Leaving Islam and making a big fuss about it may get you a very public court case, and every court case today continues to eride

Doing it quietly and not making a media and legal circus out of it? It can and does happen. Some people simply just become lapsed followers.

Also, 40% of the population is not Muslim to begin with. Bear that in mind.

Yeah, I thought that about the government enforcing laws against sodomy in the US... guess what? They could and did enforce them. You need to show the government isn't crazy enough to enforce the law, because they ARE crazy enough to pass it.

No, all I have to show is that it is wildly impractical for this law to be enforced.


3) Gays and lesbians have sex anyway and exist in fair numbers in the country, illegal or not. This latest fatwa does not actually change anything (besides making Malaysia look retarded to newsreaders, of course.). and if anything, the more ridiculous edicts they release, the more stupid they look to the populace at large. Malaysia is also homophobic. Give it some time, you know, let the next generation grow up and displace their elders.[/quote]

So it isn't a big deal because Malaysia is already fucked up?[/quote]

It is a big deal, just not for the reasons that you seem to think it is. Let me emphasize something here: it will take some time to change the attitude of the electorate enough that gays and lesbians are openly tolerated, until such a time occurs, stupid things like this will continue to crop up - the trick is to see it for what it is and continue to work for a better country, and if you have something more constructive to suggest beyond "Malaysia is fucked up" or "I'm glad Singapore left", I've love to hear it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm glad unlike you guys, we actually came close to changing the government. You're still throwing rocks from a glass house there buddy, even if Goh Chok Tong said "Gay is okay" or whatever the heck he actually said.

*shrug* I have decided that the best approach is to be apathetic. There's no need to sweat. Just remember a few things:

1. Voting is not a sacred right.
2. There's always the option of spoiling the vote.
3. Nothing will change. I mean, absolutely fucking nothing. Not even when that old necrotic dog decides to finally kick the bucket.
4. Just make money, live comfortably. The Government actually espouses the virtues of being a mercenary.
5. Pretend there aren't any idiots around.
6. Worse come to worse, migrate.

Life is so much easier.

[AniThyng]

I'm glad unlike you guys, we actually came close to changing the government. You're still throwing rocks from a glass house there buddy, even if Goh Chok Tong said "Gay is okay" or whatever the heck he actually said.

*shrug* I have decided that the best approach is to be apathetic. There's no need to sweat. Just remember a few things:

1. Voting is not a sacred right.
2. There's always the option of spoiling the vote.
3. Nothing will change. I mean, absolutely fucking nothing. Not even when that old necrotic dog decides to finally kick the bucket.
4. Just make money, live comfortably. The Government actually espouses the virtues of being a mercenary.
5. Pretend there aren't any idiots around.
6. Worse come to worse, migrate.

Life is so much easier.

I have this feeling this is sarcasm

With regards to number 6, I'm mixed on migration - we lose so much of our best people that way, and more and more it is leaving the worst of the idiots in charge.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have this feeling this is sarcasm

With regards to number 6, I'm mixed on migration - we lose so much of our best people that way, and more and more it is leaving the worst of the idiots in charge.

Part sarcasm, part truth.

As with all things, I can't really be bothered about politics. It's so much easier to pretend nothing really exists. Just make money.

And why fight them? Join them! Migrate! It does wonders for your sanity!

[AniThyng]

Hmm...I just realized I didn't finish my sentence in my reply to samuel.

"Every court case continues to stimulate public debate and erode the taboo of this issue "

@Fingolfin

Mmmm...money...
But wait, isn't it all imaginary numbers on a computer somewhere?

I like the local food too much to migrate.

Granted, if they issue a law prohibiting people from eating pigs or something, then I'll probably pack up and leave.

[Samuel]

Singapore is ALSO screwy- I think they verge on totalitarian. Of course, it keeps the streets clean.

As with all things, I can't really be bothered about politics. It's so much easier to pretend nothing really exists. Just make money.

Don't worry comrade- when the revolution comes, we will nationalize your assets for the people

On a more serious note, politics are important, if only to prevent the government from conscripting you.

And why fight them? Join them! Migrate! It does wonders for your sanity!

He is right. It is what my ancestors did. Which is why their descendants are still alive.

No, all I have to show is that it is wildly impractical for this law to be enforced.

Prohibition was wildly impractical to enforce. If a law is impractical, it ends up being used to beat up on the poor or unpopular.

Leaving Islam and making a big fuss about it may get you a very public court case, and every court case today continues to eride

So it is part of the law, but the courts ignore it? Don't you have a variety of judicial opinions in the country (some harsh, some not)? Or is there a supreme court that keeps them in check?

Doing it quietly and not making a media and legal circus out of it? It can and does happen. Some people simply just become lapsed followers.

But they are still covered by the laws as Muslims.

Also, 40% of the population is not Muslim to begin with. Bear that in mind.

Yet another brick in the road to ethnic harmony, eh?

Do you think they will ever dump the system of separate laws for non-Muslims or is change going to need to take a couple of generations?

[Shroom Man 777]

What's wrong with migrating out of your shithole third world country? I intend to get out of mine too!

[Phantasee]

What's wrong with migrating out of your shithole third world country? I intend to get out of mine too!

Someone once told me that migrating is Very Hard and nobody should do it because of the Risks.

I sure wish they had told that to my parents, then I wouldn't have to deal with this forward-thinking, frozen wasteland they call Canada!

[AniThyng]

What's wrong with migrating out of your shithole third world country? I intend to get out of mine too!

I'm just saying that if the good people migrate away, your shithole third world country has no where else to go but down.


Incidentally, I am the great-grandchild of immigrants, so no need to lecture me on immigration

1) Seperate track laws: They will dump it when the Muslims themselves desire this change. If you want to convert out of Islam after having been born into it in a Muslim country, the reality of the situation today is that you can either do it quietly on the side, or you can immigrate out - and clearly, not every muslim who immigrates wants to ditch his religion, or we would not have these problems in western countries either of muslims who do not fully abandon the more objectionable qualities of thier faith. In fact, Islam here may well be more liberal then some of what is peddled in some western mosques!

2) The country's judiciary has been severely neutered and has yet to recover fully, but that was a system neutered against political change, not really so much for or against sexual/religious liberalism. But bear in mind that full Syariah law has been rejected, at least for criminal cases. The laws we have against gay and lesiban sex are secular ones put in place by the BRITISH and simply never removed. Britain may have moved on since then, but some places change faster then others, and some have the advantage of a head start.

3) Get a sense of perspective here - at the end of the day, I have to prioritise what political issues are important and what are ancillary, and what are worth fighting for and what can be changed in the short term and what not - homophobia and religious nuttery, as detestable as it is, is something that you want to tackle after you have resolved poverty and the economy.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Still, can anyone explain to me how on Earth wearing trousers leads to the practice of lesbian sex?

The "reasoning" is probably something like "If women see each other's legs, they will be filled with uncontrollable lust and fall upon each other in sinful debauchery ! !"

It reminds me strongly of the gay-haters here in America, who tend to act like homosexuality is this immense temptation that needs to be fought at every turn lest it overwhelm us poor heterosexuals.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I'm so fucking glad my parents migrated out of that shit hole. I was born there so technically, I'm a Malaysian citizen but I couldn't care less if I lost it.

[AniThyng]

I'm so fucking glad my parents migrated out of that shit hole. I was born there so technically, I'm a Malaysian citizen but I couldn't care less if I lost it.

Damn straight. I'm glad you admit you don't care, because otherwise I'd be expecting something more useful like useful actions on how to change the situation in the country.

[mr friendly guy]

I'm glad unlike you guys, we actually came close to changing the government.

This statement only means something if Singapore's government is as bad or worse than the Malaysian government. The onus is on you to show it, and your next sentence actually suggests Singapore (at least in regards to the gay issue is somewhat better). Not a great start.

You're still throwing rocks from a glass house there buddy, even if Goh Chok Tong said "Gay is okay" or whatever the heck he actually said.

Congratulations. You have demonstrated your mastery of the Tu Quoque fallacy. What will you astound us with next?

[Samuel]

The "reasoning" is probably something like "If women see each other's legs, they will be filled with uncontrollable lust and fall upon each other in sinful debauchery ! !"

You don't understand- they are banning pants! They cover your legs!

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I'm so fucking glad my parents migrated out of that shit hole. I was born there so technically, I'm a Malaysian citizen but I couldn't care less if I lost it.

Damn straight. I'm glad you admit you don't care, because otherwise I'd be expecting something more useful like useful actions on how to change the situation in the country.

I'm sorry, I'm a little busy doing volunteer work to keep my rights where I live to be doing anything for a country that's half way across the world. And I never said I didn't care for the situation of the country. I said I didn't care about losing my citizenship there. Perhaps you shouldn't read into things that aren't there.

[Vendetta]

The "reasoning" is probably something like "If women see each other's legs, they will be filled with uncontrollable lust and fall upon each other in sinful debauchery ! !"

You don't understand- they are banning pants! They cover your legs!

Yes, but you can tell where the legs are, and that is an invitation to sinful thoughts if ever there was one.

[Rye]

Still, can anyone explain to me how on Earth wearing trousers leads to the practice of lesbian sex?

The "reasoning" is probably something like "If women see each other's legs, they will be filled with uncontrollable lust and fall upon each other in sinful debauchery ! !"

Eh? No, they don't think like that. It's about discouraging masculine behaviour as they will equate gender behaviour with sexual orientation. It's easy and visible, rather than a thought crime.

[Ender]

So they expanded the ban on "boyish" behavior to include yoga. Who the hell thinks yoga is a boyish or manly activity? It certainly isn't considered one here.

[Duckie]

So they expanded the ban on "boyish" behavior to include yoga. Who the hell thinks yoga is a boyish or manly activity? It certainly isn't considered one here.

Yoga's generally a priestly, religious activity in countries where buddhism exists outside of latte-sipping hollywood Hare Krishnas, so banning Yoga is more banning women from any sort of monastic life than it is banning women from doing popular exercise.

As far as I know.

[Duckie]

Ghetto Edit- somehow the last sentence I typed didn't register:

I'm no expert on Malaysia, so don't trust me when we have a Malay person who can tell us exactly what the Yoga ban means.

[ray245]

AniThyng is a malaysian, you can always ask him about that. By the way, I thought yoga has some sort of religious background in Hinduism?

[Duckie]

AniThyng is a malaysian, you can always ask him about that. By the way, I thought yoga has some sort of religious background in Hinduism?

Well I know it has Hindu religious appeal (that is, of course, where Bhakti Yoga and the Hare Krishna are from, along with Raja Yoga and a few other odd ones I can't remember), but Hindus are mostly limited to india whereas Buddhism (of the Mahayana sort, I believe,) is endemic to most of southeast asia.