The issue of 'hard drugs'

[ray245]

From nicotine to Cocaine, these are considered to be hard drugs that are a problem within any nation, from a liberal nation like the Netherlands to conservative nations. I think the issue of hard drugs has been raised in the Marijuana thread, but I believe this deserve another thread on its own.

While one can argue in favour of legalising soft drugs like Marijuana, it is harder for you to tackle the issue of hard drugs like Nicotine. I highly doubt that legalization of all those hard drugs is a good idea.

So, if we can't legalise the hard drugs, what actions should a government take, and how do you handle people who smuggled and trafficked these kind of hard drugs?

[TheMuffinKing]

When was Nicotine classified as a hard drug? Did I miss something?

As for drugs like Meth, Cocaine, PCP, etc...I argue against legalization of these very strongly. The detrimental effects of these drugs upon mind and body is too great to allow them widespread use in society.

I feel the actions already being taken by many governments are only partly adequate, in addition to incarceration, I feel that treatment should be available to those showing addiction.

[RedImperator]

Nicotine is not a "hard" drug. It's highly addictive, but its LD50 is high enough to make accidental overdose effectively impossible, and unlike most drugs, it does not disrupt cognitive processes. If nicotine were only as addictive as, say, caffeine, we probably would hardly even talk about it.

As for the others, I'm not sure on all of them, cocaine and heroin in particular. As I said in the previous thread, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of full legalization, and as someone else noted, unlike with cannabis, dosage control would be a serious issue with legal coke and heroin. On the other hand, the last time cocaine and heroin were legal, they didn't cause anywhere near the social harm they do now, despite the fact addiction rates were astronomical (largely thanks to patent medicines, which were full of the stuff).

[irishmick79]

Without well financed treatment programs for addiction, legalization of drugs like cocaine and heroin would be an unmitigated disaster for public health. Also, you have the issue of the cartels - who do you think would be in the best position to take control the industry once it is legalized? The drug cartels in Latin America, along with the warlords in Afghanistan. It would be very hard for governments to take them out of the equation if these drugs were legalized.

[ray245]

Crap, sorry about me classifying Nicotine as a hard drugs, got my infomation all mixed up.

[Broomstick]

Well, to continue the discussion, how do we define "hard drug" anyhow? LD50? Ease of addiction? What?

There have been, throughout history, drugs of one sort or another. A lot of them were first available in a form that made addiction impossible and even regular use somewhat problematic. Alcohol was originally mildly fermented fruits and grains, basically weak beers, wine, and cider which, while you can get drunk on them, require a substantial volume to reach that state. Cocaine was originally taken as coca leaf, which certainly had an effect, but not one great enough to impair most peoples' functioning. Psychedelic mushrooms tend to induce vomiting, which tends to make overdosing unlikely and regular daily use unpopular. Marijuana's potency has been raised through selective breeding so it's stronger now than historically but even so getting a lethal dose is almost impossible. Ditto for nictotine, much of the damage caused thereby being related to inhaling actual smoke which is never good for you (and applies to burning pot, too). While it's possible to get into trouble with these forms of drugs it's not common.

Quantity counts, too - when all tobacco was hand-raised on tiny plots, requiring intensive labor from the user it was used a lot less often, often only for infrequent ceremonial purposes. That's a LOT different than a two pack a day habit. Likewise, those who have to do the work of brewing their own beer tend not to consume vast quantities every day of the week simply because making that shit is work and time consuming. Ease of acquisition and wealth to spend on drugs makes getting into trouble a lot easier.

The problem comes when we refine the shit - when we distill alcohol, extract cocaine, and so on. The body has no mechanism for coping with such highly concentrated drugs and I suspect that's where a lot of the damage comes into play. Sitting NEAR a fire provides pleasant warmth, sitting IN a fire causes injury - it's all heat, but dose and delivery make a crucial difference.

[Tsyroc]

Nicotine is not a "hard" drug. It's highly addictive, but its LD50 is high enough to make accidental overdose effectively impossible, and unlike most drugs, it does not disrupt cognitive processes. If nicotine were only as addictive as, say, caffeine, we probably would hardly even talk about it.

Accidental overdoses aren't all that impossible. It only takes a little ingenuity and stupidity to do it. That and some nicotine gum and/or some nicotine patches. The patches can be especially bad if people dick around with them. They have enough nicotine on them for it to be absorbed through the skin at a rate that is supposed to be equivalent to certain numbers of cigarettes smoked in a 24 hour period.

The main examples I've heard of have all had to do with people deciding they'd be clever and go for lots of nicotine. One person scraped the back of a nicotine patch (maybe more than one) onto some nicotine gum. Resulting in said person dying from a nicotine overdose from chewing that gum.

Chewing multiple pieces of the gum (which really isn't meant to be chewed) can be kind of risky as well, but you are right. Compared to real hard drugs it takes some effort to accidently overdose on nicotine with the forms of delivery that are normally available to people.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Tsyroc, I would think that, if an overdose requires ingenuity, its not entirely accidental, the people you sited knew what they were doing, but didn't consider the possible consequences.

More to the point, while I don't think legalizing the likes of heroin or cocaine is a good idea on the whole, I can think of a reason to do so, though I could be wrong on this. The biggest reason that these drugs are so expensive, is because of the risks involved in producing and transporting them, you could go to prison, you could get shot, and that's just if the cops catch you. Legalizing these drugs would cause their prices to crash, thus cutting the feet out from under the cartels.

The point I'm getting at is that the key is to make it so producing these drugs is no longer profitable.

[irishmick79]

Tsyroc, I would think that, if an overdose requires ingenuity, its not entirely accidental, the people you sited knew what they were doing, but didn't consider the possible consequences.

More to the point, while I don't think legalizing the likes of heroin or cocaine is a good idea on the whole, I can think of a reason to do so, though I could be wrong on this. The biggest reason that these drugs are so expensive, is because of the risks involved in producing and transporting them, you could go to prison, you could get shot, and that's just if the cops catch you. Legalizing these drugs would cause their prices to crash, thus cutting the feet out from under the cartels.

The point I'm getting at is that the key is to make it so producing these drugs is no longer profitable.

Yeah, that's the one of the big arguments for legalization. The only question to ask is how much law enforcement and interdiction is impacting the supply and demand of the drug. If you take law enforcement out of the equation, sure the price of the drug may drop, but can the drug dealers still expand because of heavier demand for the drug?

[Tsyroc]

Tsyroc, I would think that, if an overdose requires ingenuity, its not entirely accidental, the people you sited knew what they were doing, but didn't consider the possible consequences.

Fair enough.

to the point, while I don't think legalizing the likes of heroin or cocaine is a good idea on the whole, I can think of a reason to do so, though I could be wrong on this. The biggest reason that these drugs are so expensive, is because of the risks involved in producing and transporting them, you could go to prison, you could get shot, and that's just if the cops catch you. Legalizing these drugs would cause their prices to crash, thus cutting the feet out from under the cartels.

The point I'm getting at is that the key is to make it so producing these drugs is no longer profitable.

I'm against legalizing cocaine more than it already is because it can kill a person the first time they try it (heart attack etc..). Does it all the time? Obviously not, but other stimulant type drugs have been restricted for lesser health risks than cocaine. I also think people hopped up on coke can be a potential threat to others. Maybe not to the extent that people on Meth can be but in a similar fashion. Coked up drivers for example. (Cocaine is currently legal in the US but it's pretty restricted even by prescription. I think it's a C-II. If you ever break your nose and go to the ER they might pack your nose with cocaine when they go to set it.)

I'm also against legalizing heroin. I just don't see the point. I can maybe see decriminalizing it to a certain extent so addicts end up in treatment programs and not in prison. Heroin is one of those illegal drugs that I have a very hard time sympathizing with the users. I mean, has anyone ever heard of anything good coming out of someone doing heroin? What makes a person decide that shooting questionable shit into their veins is a good idea?

[Broomstick]

You don't have to shot heroin, if it's pure enough you can snort it. Doesn't give quite the same rush, but it's doable and frequently a way people start using before they "graduate" to IV use.

As for good coming from heroin - it IS a pain killer and in some countries is used for terminal cancer pain and the like. Supposedly, it's not as mentally sedating/clouding as morphine although more powerful as a painkiller, allowing better pain control with less sedation. I'm not conversant enough with pharmaceutical science involved to know if that is, in fact, the case but like most of these things it does have some use in the right context.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Well, like I said, I don't think legalizing those two would be a good idea, but current law enforcement methods are doing little more than making drug lords rich. I don't think law enforcement is really impacting availability much at all, just driving the prices up. I mean, I live in a town of 4200 people, where they practically roll up the sidewalks after nine p.m. and if I had the money and inclination I could get coke or heroin right now, and it wouldn't take even fifteen minutes. I'm sure that in a city, any city, it'd be much easier.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Apologies for the double post.

I'm also against legalizing heroin. I just don't see the point. I can maybe see decriminalizing it to a certain extent so addicts end up in treatment programs and not in prison. Heroin is one of those illegal drugs that I have a very hard time sympathizing with the users. I mean, has anyone ever heard of anything good coming out of someone doing heroin? What makes a person decide that shooting questionable shit into their veins is a good idea?

You see, I'm the opposite, I do have sympathy for heroin addicts, because none of the ones I've met started with heroin, they started with prescription painkillers and became addicted to opiates that way. Over time they would build up a tolerance and would have to move to a more potent form of opiate, until they were doing the heroin not for any kind of high, but to stave off the withdrawal symptoms and just be able to function. After a while, its not so much a matter of wanting to inject questionable shit into their veins, its a matter of needing it, heroin withdrawal can kill you.

[Xenophobe3691]

Apologies for the double post.

You see, I'm the opposite, I do have sympathy for heroin addicts, because none of the ones I've met started with heroin, they started with prescription painkillers and became addicted to opiates that way. Over time they would build up a tolerance and would have to move to a more potent form of opiate, until they were doing the heroin not for any kind of high, but to stave off the withdrawal symptoms and just be able to function. After a while, its not so much a matter of wanting to inject questionable shit into their veins, its a matter of needing it, heroin withdrawal can kill you.

No man, heroin withdrawal does not kill. I speak from experience.

Surprisingly, it's Alcohol withdrawal that kills...

[Guardsman Bass]

Tsyroc, I would think that, if an overdose requires ingenuity, its not entirely accidental, the people you sited knew what they were doing, but didn't consider the possible consequences.

More to the point, while I don't think legalizing the likes of heroin or cocaine is a good idea on the whole, I can think of a reason to do so, though I could be wrong on this. The biggest reason that these drugs are so expensive, is because of the risks involved in producing and transporting them, you could go to prison, you could get shot, and that's just if the cops catch you. Legalizing these drugs would cause their prices to crash, thus cutting the feet out from under the cartels.

The point I'm getting at is that the key is to make it so producing these drugs is no longer profitable.

Yeah, that's the one of the big arguments for legalization. The only question to ask is how much law enforcement and interdiction is impacting the supply and demand of the drug. If you take law enforcement out of the equation, sure the price of the drug may drop, but can the drug dealers still expand because of heavier demand for the drug?

It's possible, but I think part of the idea behind (hopefully partially) legalizing cocaine is that you could then have legitimate companies buy coca directly from the planters in various South American places (like Bolivia; the current President is, IIRC, a former head of a coca-growers' union), which would displace the cartels. Sort of like alternative legal sources of alcohol popping up once Prohibition was removed, cutting the current middleman - in alcohol's case, Al Capone; in cocaine's case, the Colombian cartels. The cartels could theoretically dump a whole lot of it on the American market if legalized (or sell it to licensed vendors, since it is unlikely you'd see the stuff being sold by anyone), but they'd only ruin themselves financially in the long run.

One question - is it possible to specifically detect cocaine dose in a person? You could, for example, allow cocaine use either in private homes (with rules in case of public disturbance) or at licensed clubs with the right type of medical aids and contact there in case of overdose - but institute heavy penalties for being caught intoxicated on the drug in public. Like heavy fines and light jail time plus involuntary rehabilitation, if necessary.

I'm not so sure about heroin.

[RedImperator]

Maybe not to the extent that people on Meth can be but in a similar fashion.

Though speaking of meth, I think a good argument could be made that without cocaine prohibition, meth probably never becomes popular. Every time the cocaine supply into an area gets disrupted and the price goes too high for poor people to afford, meth moves in. Not an improvement. In a perverse way, New Jersey is lucky that it straddles a virtual river of cocaine flowing into New York City; we've never had a bad enough cocaine shortage to create a huge meth market.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

No man, heroin withdrawal does not kill. I speak from experience.

It can't? I always thought it could, not that it would in one hundred percent of cases, but that it was a possibility.

Eh, I've been wrong before.

[Tsyroc]

You see, I'm the opposite, I do have sympathy for heroin addicts, because none of the ones I've met started with heroin, they started with prescription painkillers and became addicted to opiates that way. Over time they would build up a tolerance and would have to move to a more potent form of opiate, until they were doing the heroin not for any kind of high, but to stave off the withdrawal symptoms and just be able to function. After a while, its not so much a matter of wanting to inject questionable shit into their veins, its a matter of needing it, heroin withdrawal can kill you.

I did say I have a hard time sympathizing not that I have no sympathy.

I do understand the progression that gets some people on heroin and I sympathize in that regard because to end up on it most people have some real problems that they could really use some help with. I would hope that if they are considering using heroin that for some of them it might ring a really loud warning bell in their head. At least here in Tucson we have a methadone clinic were heroin addicts can get free methadone instead of heroin. There are some issues with how you get on the clinic's list that I don't like, plus the clinic doesn't really try all that hard to wean patients off of methadone like it probably should but to me it still seems like a better option than just legalizing heroin.

The cocaine bit makes me think that we should be looking at heroin in terms of how legal to make it more so than totally illegal versus completely unrestricted. Some of the stuff I've been reading about heroin makes me think that in the US it is illegal because there are other drugs that already fill the same pain killing niche and heroin has been shown to be more addictive than some of the others. In the countries it is legal it still pretty restricted. It's essentially another form of morphine so there's really no chance that it'll be legalized to the point where it would be any easier to get than morphine.

[Tsyroc]

Maybe not to the extent that people on Meth can be but in a similar fashion.

Though speaking of meth, I think a good argument could be made that without cocaine prohibition, meth probably never becomes popular. Every time the cocaine supply into an area gets disrupted and the price goes too high for poor people to afford, meth moves in. Not an improvement. In a perverse way, New Jersey is lucky that it straddles a virtual river of cocaine flowing into New York City; we've never had a bad enough cocaine shortage to create a huge meth market.

That's interesting. We have a lot of problems with Meth here.

Pseudoephedrine is pretty strictly controlled these days because of people making meth out of it. It's still not prescription but it's all kept behind the pharmacy desk and you have to show picture I.D. and sign for it when you purchase some. Plus you are restricted to a certain amount per purchase and within a time span that I don't know the specifics of. The amount thing can be kind of a pain if you prefer to buy the sustained release stuff because there are more milligrams in each of those pills so the total amount can add up quickly.

Even pseudophedrine combo drugs are kept behind the desk. I guess the people who make meth don't really care that they might be fucking up the livers of their customers by making meth that includes a bunch of acetaminophen (tylenol, paracetamol) in it.

[Sea Skimmer]

Heroin withdrawal most certainly can kill, but only in extreme cases, usually involved a person who is already sick with other conditions or has been severally weakened thanks to being addicted to the drug to the point that they don’t eat for weeks, or both.

Hard drugs must remain illegal, it is just morally wrong to tell a person its okay to go use coke or heroin, but fighting a militarized campaign against them, while all too often neglecting funding for even basic treatment for users as the US does is just fucking insane.

[Darth Wong]

Hard drugs must remain illegal, it is just morally wrong to tell a person its okay to go use coke or heroin, but fighting a militarized campaign against them, while all too often neglecting funding for even basic treatment for users as the US does is just fucking insane.

Unfortunately (and I know some will accuse me of beating a dead horse), this is all part of the whole "good vs evil" mentality. If they viewed drugs as a public health issue, they might treat it differently. But they treat it as a struggle between good and evil, and in such a struggle, you fight the enemy, and all of his supporters. You do not offer them therapy.

[Xenophobe3691]

Heroin withdrawal most certainly can kill, but only in extreme cases, usually involved a person who is already sick with other conditions or has been severally weakened thanks to being addicted to the drug to the point that they don’t eat for weeks, or both.

Again, it's not the withdrawal that's killing them, it's the emaciated state they're in.

My intentions were to compare it with alcohol. When you're addicted to alcohol, you can die when you go through withdrawal. Quite easily, in fact.

With heroin, it requires exactly those extreme conditions to die.

[Broomstick]

No man, heroin withdrawal does not kill. I speak from experience.

It can't? I always thought it could, not that it would in one hundred percent of cases, but that it was a possibility.

Eh, I've been wrong before.

If you have a very severe medical problem otherwise - prior heart attacks, liver dysfunction, etc. - cold turkey can potentially kill you, but that is a vanishingly small part of the opiate using population. Even there, detox can be managed slowly over a period of time so as not to jeopardize the person's health. The only person I heard of who was never detoxed off opiates had end stage kidney disease, progressive liver disease, and a history of heart valve infections, heart attacks, and stroke.* Unless you're that fucked up physically, you can safely get off heroin.

The withdrawal might make you want to die... but it won't kill you.


* It wasn't the heroin it that did all that to him. It was the shit the heroin was cut with. Ranks right up there with the lady who's dealer got pissed at her and cut her heroin with Ajax cleanser. That's right, they could determine the brand name of the shit in her veins - they just couldn't get rid of it. Took two years to die. If this shit was legalized ONE harm that would be reduced is people getting maimed and killed by the substances adulterating the drugs.