"The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

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weemadando
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"The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by weemadando »

Thank you religion. Score another one.

I think you can imagine the kind of backlash this is generating.
News.com.au wrote:It's OK to hit your wife, says Melbourne Islamic cleric Samir Abu Hamza

By staff writers and wires - AAP

January 22, 2009 05:02pm

A MELBOURNE Muslim at the centre of a storm over a lecture where he apparently directed his followers to hit their wives and force them to have sex reportedly says his message was taken out of context.

Coburg mosque cleric Samir Abu Hamza has told a confidant his message about hitting was meant in a metaphorical sense.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and Islamic leaders have condemned the lecture.

Mr Rudd said Mr Hamza's comments had no place in modern Australia.

During a 2003 lecture also posted on the internet late last year, Mr Hamza told followers that under Islamic law, men could demand sex from their wives.

Despite Australian law requiring consent, it was impossible for a man to rape his wife even if she refused to have sex, he said.

"Under no circumstances are other forms of violence, physical violence, acceptable towards women in Australia nor are they acceptable in my view to mainstream Muslim teachings.

"Australia will not tolerate these sort of remarks. They don't belong in modern Australia, and he should stand up, repudiate them and apologise.''

The President of the Islamic Council of Victoria (ICV) Ramzi Elsayed said he had spoken with Mr Hamza about the lecture, titled The Keys to a Successful Marriage.

"He told me he was speaking in a metaphorical sense,'' Mr Elsayed said.

"In regards to hitting your wife, his position is that it has always been metaphorical - it's not a whack, it's not a slap, it's a wake-up call.''

He said Islam did not condone violence against women or making a wife have sex with her husband against her will.

"He believes he was taken out of context insofar as he was talking about people who censure their spouses - it was not so much a physical hit as a metaphorical one to say wake up, we're heading for a divorce kind-of-thing,'' Mr Elsayed said.

But the senior honorary legal adviser to the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Haset Seli, hit out at Mr Hamza, calling him a lunatic.

"His lecture was absolutely ludicrous, unIslamic and highlighted the ignorance of the man,'' Mr Seli said.

He said anyone who thinks he can force his wife to have sex with him is a lunatic and certainly not a Muslim.

Mr Seli said he went through a similar episode with the former Mufti, Sheik Taj Aldin Alhilali, who caused a national uproar in a 2006 Ramadan speech when he likened scantily clad women to uncovered meat, suggesting they were to blame for sexual attacks on them.

He also claimed at the time that his comments had been taken out of context.

"Statements like (Mr Hamza's) are about as helpful to Islam as a lunatic parading himself as an imam,'' Mr Seli said.

The Federation of Ethnic Communities Councils of Australia (FECCA) said violence against women in any form was unacceptable.

"There can be no cultural or religious defence for violence against women,'' said acting FECCA chair Beryl Mulder.

At the Islamic Information and Service Network of Australasia, which Mr Hamza runs in Melbourne, a staff member said the comments had been taken "absolutely out of context''.

"We do not hit our women, you can ask any Muslim woman and she will tell you that, it's not part of Islam,'' the male staff member, who did not want to be named, said.

Mr Hamza was on holiday somewhere in Melbourne for the next "couple of weeks,'' the man said.

Sherene Hassan, vice president of the ICV, said she was organising workshops for Victorian imams on the issue of domestic violence.

"There may be individuals who have interpreted this lecture as condoning violence against women - it's not the first time we have had this problem,'' she said.

She said imams will meet next week to plan workshops to find ways of discouraging domestic violence among their followers.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

That's one shitty fucking "metaphor" with serious potential for misinterpretation. Suspiciously so, as anyone with a brain will note.
"We do not hit our women, you can ask any Muslim woman and she will tell you that, it's not part of Islam,'' the male staff member, who did not want to be named, said.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by hongi »

Okay, I'm really confused about one thing. This lecture was made in 2003, and has been out on DVD for about five years. So why is this in the media now? Did someone finally remember to watch some of the crazy Muslim videos they bought in a garage sale?
A MELBOURNE Muslim at the centre of a storm over a lecture where he apparently directed his followers to hit their wives and force them to have sex reportedly says his message was taken out of context.
That's what they all say. :roll:
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Darth Wong »

hongi wrote:Okay, I'm really confused about one thing. This lecture was made in 2003, and has been out on DVD for about five years. So why is this in the media now? Did someone finally remember to watch some of the crazy Muslim videos they bought in a garage sale?
Because it was posted on the Internet late last year (if that means "December", that was just last month), and most non-Muslims don't buy Muslim religious lectures on DVD.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by weemadando »

Darth Wong wrote:
hongi wrote:Okay, I'm really confused about one thing. This lecture was made in 2003, and has been out on DVD for about five years. So why is this in the media now? Did someone finally remember to watch some of the crazy Muslim videos they bought in a garage sale?
Because it was posted on the Internet late last year (if that means "December", that was just last month), and most non-Muslims don't buy Muslim religious lectures on DVD.
His response to the Australian outrage at this was hilarious (after the "out of context" stuff):

Australian's are hooked on booze, gambling and prostitution... Is that meant to be an insult or some kind of indictment of our nation?
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Stuart »

weemadando wrote:Australian's are hooked on booze, gambling and prostitution... Is that meant to be an insult or some kind of indictment of our nation?
I think its a compliment..........

Given the way Moslems behave when on vacation in third world countries, I'm sure it is.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Darth Wong »

Stuart wrote:
weemadando wrote:Australian's are hooked on booze, gambling and prostitution... Is that meant to be an insult or some kind of indictment of our nation?
I think its a compliment..........

Given the way Moslems behave when on vacation in third world countries, I'm sure it is.
I would hope so. If his charges about Australia are correct, and they are intended as an indictment of its society, then one must wonder why he and other Muslims emigrated there.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Kanastrous »

I like the way that people of this stripe try to weasel away from embarrassing statements by claiming "metaphor," but just try and point out that maybe their entire belief system is nothing but metaphor and -

- that's funny, suddenly my neck and throat are itching.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Rye »

What is it about the name Abu Hamza that makes people say hateful religious bullshit in commonwealth countries? It'd be cool if they deported him to the same place our Abu Hamza was deported to. Eventually there'd be a colony of them.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Darth Wong wrote: I would hope so. If his charges about Australia are correct, and they are intended as an indictment of its society, then one must wonder why he and other Muslims emigrated there.
Because they believe in Muslim superiority, it is a part of the faith. If you go to an Muslim country, you must adapt yourself to Islam, if a Muslim comes to your country, you must adapt to Islam ect… It’s a serious movement in some Muslim circles, to belief that they can convert western nations into Muslim states if they simply keep immigrating, keep spreading bullshit, and exploit western laws on free speech and teachings of tolerance to get away with it.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Zuul wrote:What is it about the name Abu Hamza that makes people say hateful religious bullshit in commonwealth countries? It'd be cool if they deported him to the same place our Abu Hamza was deported to. Eventually there'd be a colony of them.
I find that image quite hilarious. It's like a crooked, fundie filled version of Are You Dave Gorman?
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Kanastrous »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: I would hope so. If his charges about Australia are correct, and they are intended as an indictment of its society, then one must wonder why he and other Muslims emigrated there.
Because they believe in Muslim superiority, it is a part of the faith. If you go to an Muslim country, you must adapt yourself to Islam, if a Muslim comes to your country, you must adapt to Islam ect… It’s a serious movement in some Muslim circles, to belief that they can convert western nations into Muslim states if they simply keep immigrating, keep spreading bullshit, and exploit western laws on free speech and teachings of tolerance to get away with it.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Fire Fly »

Perhaps it is my ignorance of the matter but how come I never hear about Muslims in the US preaching this sort of stuff? The Muslims in other Western nations seem to be much more radical relative to the ones here. Am I wrong?
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Fire Fly wrote:Perhaps it is my ignorance of the matter but how come I never hear about Muslims in the US preaching this sort of stuff? The Muslims in other Western nations seem to be much more radical relative to the ones here. Am I wrong?
What? You're not happy with having a monopoly on Christian fundies, now you want our Muslim idiots too? Typical. :P
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

weemadando wrote: "We do not hit our women, you can ask any Muslim woman and she will tell you that, it's not part of Islam,'' the male staff member, who did not want to be named, said.
Or she'll get one in the other eye, right? :roll:


The only thing that pisses me off more than these assholes using their religions to justify their abhorrent behavior is the people who try and do spin control and insist that their religion isn't like that at all, when a quick glance at reality will tell otherwise.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

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Fire Fly wrote:Perhaps it is my ignorance of the matter but how come I never hear about Muslims in the US preaching this sort of stuff? The Muslims in other Western nations seem to be much more radical relative to the ones here. Am I wrong?
You hear about Muslim clerics preaching this kind of crap in the US. Witness 'the blind cleric,' Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman.

We're less saturated with these types than some countries in Western Europe, and overall we don't treat immigrants quite as crappily or make it quite as tough to integrate, so the ground here is a bit less fertile, for their sort. But we still have enough of them to be worth watching.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Or she'll get one in the other eye, right? :roll:


The only thing that pisses me off more than these assholes using their religions to justify their abhorrent behavior is the people who try and do spin control and insist that their religion isn't like that at all, when a quick glance at reality will tell otherwise.
The masses of non-vocal moderates betrays a tacit approval in many respects. Just as with the Christian community, really. There should be far larger backlashes over this, but I only ever see them over cartoons depicting a pædophile instead.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Knife »

It is tribalism, no more no less. Hate it all you want, call it what it is.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Sidewinder »

Fire Fly wrote:Perhaps it is my ignorance of the matter but how come I never hear about Muslims in the US preaching this sort of stuff? The Muslims in other Western nations seem to be much more radical relative to the ones here. Am I wrong?
Simple reason: if a Muslim tried pulling that shit in the US, the KKK and other right-wing nuts will gain just enough support to launch a hate campaign. Picture angry mobs setting mosques on fire, beating the shit out of anyone wearing a turban, riot cops surrounding the embassies of Muslim nations so the mobs won't firebomb these embassies, and countless internet trolls urging the use of nukes against Mecca. It will not be a good time to be a Muslim in the US.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Kanastrous wrote:
Fire Fly wrote:Perhaps it is my ignorance of the matter but how come I never hear about Muslims in the US preaching this sort of stuff? The Muslims in other Western nations seem to be much more radical relative to the ones here. Am I wrong?
You hear about Muslim clerics preaching this kind of crap in the US. Witness 'the blind cleric,' Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman.
They're still pretty rare, though. Probably because it's easier to integrate in the US, but also because, to be blunt, if you spouted this shit in the US loud enough for it to get into the mainstream news, you aren't going to get a "this rhetoric is hurtful and unwarranted" remark; you'll probably get hate-mail, an earful of attacks in the press, possibly threatening phone calls, and potentially a visit from the FBI to see if you are connected to any jihadist groups.
We're less saturated with these types than some countries in Western Europe, and overall we don't treat immigrants quite as crappily or make it quite as tough to integrate, so the ground here is a bit less fertile, for their sort. But we still have enough of them to be worth watching.
How big is the muslim population in Great Britain, for example? I thought it was only about 2 million strong (the Muslim Council of Britain has it at 1.6 million, and this has it at 1.5 million back in 2001, but I don't know how reliable those sources are). By comparison, the overall British population is 60,943,000.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Kanastrous »

Sure, even in Europe they sometimes make noise entirely disproportionate to their numbers.

Alas, like practitioners of some other religions, they are exhorted to breed as rapidly and irresponsibly as possible.
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Post by Junghalli »

Kanastrous wrote:When you have power over me, I ask you for my rights because it is in your nature, to grant them. When I have power over you, I take away your rights because it is in my nature, to take them.
Christian fundies in the US are similar. They're at the point where they have some power but it isn't total, so you'll see them in the hilarious position of simultaneously trying to take rights away from people with one hand while screaming about how their rights are being trampled on by the evil secularists with the other (forgive the mixed metaphor).
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by hongi »

Perhaps it is my ignorance of the matter but how come I never hear about Muslims in the US preaching this sort of stuff? The Muslims in other Western nations seem to be much more radical relative to the ones here. Am I wrong?
I'd say that's a simplification. You've taken this one cleric as evidence that Australian Muslims in Australia are much more radical than in America. I think you're making the classic mistake of equating one loony fruitcake to an entire community, a community that I've personally found to be well adjusted to our laws - a whole lot of them were born here after all.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by Stark »

Sidewinder wrote:Simple reason: if a Muslim tried pulling that shit in the US, the KKK and other right-wing nuts will gain just enough support to launch a hate campaign. Picture angry mobs setting mosques on fire, beating the shit out of anyone wearing a turban, riot cops surrounding the embassies of Muslim nations so the mobs won't firebomb these embassies, and countless internet trolls urging the use of nukes against Mecca. It will not be a good time to be a Muslim in the US.
So you're saying that nowhere in the US are any Muslim preachers saying anything like this, recording it and selling it within their communities? Can I borrow your crystal ball?

You must be pretty naive. As Hongi says, this simply represents extremists/fundamentalists, which are the same everywhere and are a very small part of their communities. Your simpleminded nonsense is just hilarious.
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Re: "The keys to a successful marriage"? Rape and beatings.

Post by AniThyng »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
weemadando wrote: "We do not hit our women, you can ask any Muslim woman and she will tell you that, it's not part of Islam,'' the male staff member, who did not want to be named, said.
Or she'll get one in the other eye, right? :roll:


The only thing that pisses me off more than these assholes using their religions to justify their abhorrent behavior is the people who try and do spin control and insist that their religion isn't like that at all, when a quick glance at reality will tell otherwise.
Oh, I didn't not realize that there's no such thing as a secular atheist wife-beater. A wife-beater is a wife-beater, hypocritical religious justifications or no.
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