Because I deal with observable facts and you don't, apparently.
You mean, the EPA doesn't. Take it up with them.
I just made a 240+ mile road trip yesterday. My gas mileage: 42 mpg. I'm sorry, what part of "verifiable fact" are you having difficulty with? "Government dictates reality" was a meme I had hoped to leave behind with the Bush administration.
Apparently, the government does "dictate reality" in this case, because no matter ho much you scream that they're bullshit, the EPA standards still stand and are not going to change. I am through with this line of the argument, since you've apparently committed to being a broken record on this particular point.
I am fully aware of the implications of what I am saying. The difference between you and me is that I believe no matter what the US auto industry is doomed. There is nothing that you, I, or the government can do to fix that.
Actually, the government CAN save the auto industry, by
nationalizing it if necessary, and ordinary citizens can help by buying their own country's products. Nationalization has been used by other countries to save major industries, so why can that not be the case here?
Therefore, throwing money into a hopeless situation is the depths of stupidity.
Making the situation worse by allowing collapse is the depth of stupidity.
I think that for most part that has already happened, with the rich bastards who profitted off the sale making plans to retire to Dubai or something. Therefore, the only thing left for me to do is adapt
Or organize a revolution, if it really is that bad.
And, by and large, I was not one of those "consumerist traitors". Granted I did buy a Toyota but that is because I could not find an American car to fit my needs. I am not going to shoot myself in the foot to make a point, I don't have the resources to do that.
No excuses. Some of the poorest people I know (as in, about as poor as you can get while still affording to maintain a car) in fact drive domestics: granted, many were used, but if they can manage, what excuse do you have?
Point one here: I don't believe it should collapse, I believe it already has and the corpse simply hasn't stopped twitching yet.
If that's true of the auto industry, then it's true of your entire country. Maybe you should have elected McCain instead, since his bungling would have put you out of your misery quickly instead of the drawn out agonizing death Obama would preside over.
Point two here: As I pointed out, the label on the ass-end says little to nothing about where a car is built.
The very first character of the car's VIN tells you which country it's made in (J=Japan, 1,4, or 5=USA); Maybe you should learn to read VINs because it's a very useful skill to have, especially for buying used cars or ordering parts if you like to DIY.
As I pointed out, my Ford Festiva was built entirely in Korean and its manufacture benefited Korea, not Detroit and not your town. It's manufacture employed no Americans or Canadians whatsoever. The profit made most likely stayed in Korea as well. How could it possibly be called either a domestic or American car?
And a single, low volume captive import changes the fact that the vast majority of US Fords are made in the US how exactly?
I don't think the government is capable of saving it, either. I think the US auto industry is dead, dead, dead and all that's left is the clean-up.
Other countries have saved industries through nationalization, why can't yours? Additionally, I know one other way: Severely restrict all the foreign marques like some other countries already do. That way, when most people buy a car, it'll have to be American. If Americans won't willingly do what's good for their country, then they'll have to be forced to.
An overseas example is that Russia has imposed stiff tariffs to protect it's auto industry, public opinion be damned, and far it seems to be at least keeping them an even keel. If government intervention can save the
Russian car industry of all things, I cannot imagine why the same wouldn't be true in America.
Scream all you want - they've already collapsed and the economic fallout has already started. Nationalizing the industry will do nothing - unless you somehow force people to buy products they don't want.
Actually it can, because the act of nationalization allows them to sell their cars at a loss, undercutting the competition significantly. Some would argue this involves turning the auto industry into a "make work" program, but did you yourself argue that even "make work" is better than no work at all? And what people
want to buy is irrelevant, the issue is what they should buy, and if necessary be forced to do it.
It's not simply that US cars cost more, they're shit. The perception is that Japanese cars last longer and require less maintenance in addition to frequently being less expensive.
Japanese cars are rarely less expensive anymore around here perceptions aside. As for reality, how about this: Ford now practically matches any of the Japanese brands in reliability according to any such survey you'd care to name. GM has some models that do this - and admittedly some that do not. Only Chrysler is shitty across the board. As for quality, Toyota has been taking a hit recently thanks to their break-neck expansion progam. They recently had to issue a seatbelt safety recall on the Yaris, and this is only the latest in a string of recalls and quality control snafus that have hit them over the past 3-4 years. Toyota is also very good at propaganda, selling themselves as an "American" company to consumers.
You're asking people to purchase inferior goods at higher prices - THAT's why the US auto industry is in the shitter, because most people aren't going to do that.
Spare me the free market bullshit. Even if that were true, then yeah actually I am asking people to do that, because it's their civic duty as far as I'm concerned. If they wont do it willingly, then yes they should damn well be forced to. That's how you know, the Japanese got their auto industry off the ground in the first place. Their government protected their nascent industries from foreign competition, their workers went the extra mile to ensure the quality of their work, and their citizens dutifully bought their own country's products even when superior foreign alternatives were available, all because they realized it was ultimately in their own personal interest. The fact that Americans aren't willing to do that is an indicator of everything that is wrong with your country, and why you may very well need a dictatorship to fix it.
Of course, it also helped that Japan did drive it's exports back then by manipulating it's currency much as China is now, but that's for another thread. (Japan isn't really doing that anymore, but only because)
There's not a damn thing we can do to stop it, regardless of the state of the rest of the economy
That's not the kind of attitude that made your country or any other successful. Do you think the Japanese 50 years ago looked at the mighty American auto industry and said "whelp, there's no way we can ever compete so we might as well not even try"
No, they just changed their name to "KIA" and are now selling their own vehicles under their own name. Maybe they didn't sell significantly in YOUR area but the Korean factory sold enough to become their own car marker under their own name and start competing with the big boys.
Actually, Kia existed long before Ford bought their stake in them, just not as an automaker. However, Kia has
never competed very successfully on their own in that capacity. After they went bankrupt in the '98 Asian financial crisis, Ford sold their stake and Hyundai bought them outright, so today most Kias are mechanically identical to their Hyundai counterparts.
Speaking of Korean automakers, I remember that during the '98 East Asian financial crisis the entire Korean auto industry was in real danger, and it became very common for owners of imported cars in Korea to have rocks thrown at them or their cars otherwise vandalized. Not that I condone vandalism, I only wish Americans were that patriotic about their own industries, but it seems the only kind of patriotism Americans have left is jingoist militarism. Reagan lives.
Except they've been importing for decades. Your concern is far, far too late to make a difference
Only in numbers so limited, they can almost be discounted completely.
How about, instead of a handout, we give them money to go back to school and re-train for a different profession? A bit of a pipe dream, I'll admit, but so is inifinite government support if you're living in the US.
It
is a pipe dream. Frankly, nationalizing the industry would probably be cheaper than retraining 8-10% of the entire work force.
I feel for them, I truly do - I lost my corporate job 15 months ago - but propping up a dead industry long-term is not feasible.
Oh, I see what this is: You got fucked over, so now you want everyone else to be fucked over as bad as you?
Do you think the Detroit executives weren't sexist, racist scum? Do you think there wasn't a glass ceiling in the US? Do you think there were no sexual harassment scandals in the US auto industry?
Even if that was true, which admittedly it almost certainly was at some point in history (50-60 years ago, just about everyone, everywhere in power was racist and sexist to some degree) but given the number of women and minorities that now fill positions in GM that in Toyota are still 100% Japanese male, I would say that even if that was the case, it is not anymore but it most certainly still is in Japan.
Do you think the Detroit executives weren't sexist, racist scum? Do you think there wasn't a glass ceiling in the US? Do you think there were no sexual harassment scandals in the US auto industry?
The operating word here is "was". Sexual harassment and glass ceilings continue to be as great a problem as ever in Japanese companies, in large part because of their culture. Ironically, one of these harassment scandals at Toyota's US head office lead to the promotion of Jim Press to be the only American who has ever lead Toyota's North American division. However, he eventually quit and went to Chrysler after over 25 years with Toyota (makes you wonder).
It was their short-sightedness and bumbling that allowed this to take place.
No less than the short-sightedness of American consumers.
No, of course not - but they are already in that position. Japanese autos have been dominant for a long time now, anyone saying otherwise is just fooling himself.
Then how come GM is still in the top spot in the US market? Even if that were so, then a single decree from the government can change that overnight.
Let me try to explain this again. I live in one of the worst affected rust-belt areas outside of Detroit. We have very few large employers left.
And whose fault is that? Oh, right the people who refused to buy American products when the had the chance!
Toyota employs many people in my area. We do NOT have a Ford, GM, Chrysler, or any other American auto maker employing people in my area (other than dealerships) we have Toyota employing people here. Folks aren't too fond of, say, Hyundai or Mitsubishi or Kia, or any other foreign maker but they do have some fondness for the Toyota plant which is actually benefiting them.
So, you'd be inclined to support a domestic automaker if they owned that plant instead of Toyota? Even so, as I stated before, these workers would be doing more to save their own jobs by buying a GM or Ford than they gas-guzzlers their own plant produces. Once the Domestics are gone, Toyota will have no political reason to keep building cars on this continent.
No, it would not. Unlike you, I am clear that there is an international border between the US and Canada and the US and Mexico. A Canadian built car is just as foreign as a Japanese one.
Actually it is, because of the US design and engineering input that is absent from even the vehicles Toyota claims to have "designed" here (which for the record are no more designed in America than Dell designs it's own computers). You are also apparently completely ignorant of the symbiotic relationship our economies have developed under NAFTA, unlike with China or Japan, where they have full access to your market without the reverse being true.
GM built cars too expensive for my budget, that are inefficient, that don't get the gas mileage I want/need, and they aren't as durable. Therefore, I did not buy them.
Price is an excuse. Features are not (though there aren't really any Japanese cars that are cheaper anymore).
I did not buy them. They made bad decisions and must deal with the consequences.
Only as bad as the mistake you made and millions more consumers made.
Shouldn't you be calling the "disloyal, filthy rich investors" traitors and not those of us who bought quality goods with our limited funds?
I thought I did that by calling them "disloyal"?
Forcing people to buy sub-standard, inferior goods in the name of patriotism is not a viable long-term strategy.
How very Republican of you.
So, in a couple of years you'll only be buying used cars?
If necessary, yes. And failing that, some way, somehow I'll try and find a way to do without my own car. Don't think for a second that I won't practice what I preach.
Get past the notion that ANY company is "too big to fail" - it's not. That's been proven multiple times in the US.
Which should never have been allowed to happen, at least in the case of major industries.
Incorrect. We should dismantle NAFTA as well. I opposed it from the start because it only really benefitted Canada and Mexico, the US has lost in the arrangement from the start.
Not true at all. Your country has in fact benefited from NAFTA, and even Obama was forced to eat humble pie and admit that (which makes me somewhat hopeful he'll also have the sense to roll back this deadline to something more reasonable). Not the least of these benefits is easy access to natural resources that you don't have on your own soil and would have to import from somewhere anyway.
Besides, opposing NAFTA while buying Japanese made cars is the height of hypocricy.
I've enjoyed every visit, we have a lot in common, etc. - but my country does not have an obligation to bleed money for your benefit. Canada does not have the best interests of the US at heart, either. I realize that. Apparently you do not.
Actually, we do, because it really is in our interest to have your interests at heart, because as a general rule, what's good for you is good for us, thus it's in our best interest that your economy be healthy and strong. For this reason Canada is the greatest friend your country ever had, even if you don't often appreciate that. That's why NAFTA works so well between the US and Canada, though I can't speak to Mexico, because I really don't know the detail of their trade with the US (though by virtue of being in NAFTA, if they were detrimental to you, they'd probably be to us as well). The level of two-way integration also gives you as much access to our markets as we have to yours, in stark contrast to your arrangements with Japan, China etc. Despite the plants Detroit has here in Canada, far more of our automobiles (80%) are made in the US than any other country, so spare me the bullshit that NAFTA was just another one-sided trade affair.
If the 2011 deadline does go through, lets see if Toyota even attempts to convert that plant, or just shuts it down permanently. Oh, and you're doing more to help your neighbors by buying a GM then any Toyota; why? For one, given Toyota's fragile state at the moment, the economic shockwave caused by the collapse of the American auto industry would drag them down as well. They're not in immediate danger of collapse in and of themselves, but a strong enough push would definitely send them over the edge. Of course, they would never actually fail, because unlike your broken excuse for a government, there is no possibility the Japanese government will not bail them out or do whatever else it takes to keep them afloat should the need arise. Maybe that's why American industry is vanishing: Other governments work with their industries, listen to their concerns, and protect them during hard times. Yours tells it's industries and workers to go to hell, and leaves them wide open to foreign predation by eliminating any and all trade and investment barriers, all for the sake of a handful of disloyal filthy rich investors.
