Schuller Televangelism Empire Endangered

[Kanastrous]

GARDEN GROVE, Calif. - Once one of the most popular televangelists in the U.S., the Rev. Robert H. Schuller is watching his life's work crumble.

His son and recent successor, the Rev. Robert A. Schuller, has abruptly resigned as senior pastor of the Crystal Cathedral. The shimmering, glass-walled megachurch in Southern California is home to the "Hour of Power" broadcast, an evangelism staple that has been on the air worldwide for more than three decades.

The church is in financial turmoil: It plans to sell more than $65 million worth of its Orange County property to pay off debt. Revenue dropped by nearly $5 million last year, according to a recent letter from the elder Schuller to elite donors. In the letter, he implored the Eagle's Club members — who supply 30 percent of the church's revenue — for donations and hinted that the show might go off the air without their support.

"The final months of 2008 were devastating for our ministry," the 82-year-old pastor wrote.

The Crystal Cathedral blames the recession for its woes. But it's clear that the elder Schuller's carefully orchestrated leadership transition, planned over a decade, has stumbled badly.

It's a problem common to personality driven ministries. Most have collapsed or been greatly diminished after their founders left the pulpit or died.

Members often tie their donations to the pastor, not the institution, said Nancy Ammerman, a sociologist of religion at Boston University. Schuller, with a style that blends pop psychology and theology, has a particularly devoted following, she said.

"Viewers are probably much less likely to give when it's not their preacher they're giving to," she said. "There's something about these televised programs where people develop a certain loyalty."

Today's increasingly fragmented media landscape is also to blame, said Quentin Schultze, a Calvin College professor who specializes in Christian media.

Church-based televangelism led by powerful personalities filled TV in the 1980s, but now only a handful of shows remain, he said. Among the struggling ministries are those of Oral Roberts and the late D. James Kennedy of "The Coral Ridge Hour" TV show.

"I don't see a scenario for maintaining a TV-based megachurch anymore. The days of doing that in the models of Schuller and Jimmy Swaggart and Oral Roberts are over," Schultze said. "It's amazing to me that the 'Hour of Power' was able to keep going as long as it did."

Through a spokesman, Schuller Sr., his family members and other cathedral officials declined to comment. The younger Schuller, 54, did not respond to an e-mail requesting an interview.

The elder Schuller, who called his weekly show "America's Television Church," founded his ministry in a drive-in theater after moving to Southern California in 1955.

He studied marketing strategies to attract worshippers and preached a feel-good Christianity, describing himself as a "possibility thinker" and spinning his upbeat style into a 10,000-member church and a broadcast watched by millions worldwide.

The church's main sanctuary, the Crystal Cathedral, is a landmark designed by renowned architect Philip Johnson, with a spire visible from afar amid Orange County's suburban sprawl. Thousands make the pilgrimage to see where the broadcast is filmed before a live congregation.

The Schullers consider the church a family business, and the younger Schuller's 2006 appointment was sanctioned by the Crystal Cathedral's parent denomination, the Reformed Church in America.

But the church announced on Nov. 29 that Schuller Jr. had resigned as senior pastor, just a month after he was removed from the church's syndicated broadcasts. In a news release, Schuller Sr. said: "Robert and I have been struggling as we each have different ideas as to the direction and the vision for this ministry."

The church has since instituted a rotating roster of high-profile guest preachers, including Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church, the Chicago-area megachurch, and evangelist Luis Palau.

Schuller Sr.'s daughters and sons-in-law remain involved in the church, some in key roles. But Juan Carlos Ortiz, the interim senior pastor, hopes to appoint a senior pastor with no ties to the Schuller family within two years.

On the church Web site, concerned members and TV fans have posted hundreds of comments protesting the upheaval, with some indicating they have stopped giving or will leave altogether.

Several angry viewers have launched petitions to get the younger Schuller back.

Melody Mook, a 58-year-old medical transcriptionist from El Paso, Texas, said she stopped her $25 monthly donation and is looking elsewhere for her spiritual needs. She said she dislikes the guest pastors.

"I feel hurt and confused and I'm not sure that I want to sit and watch when I know there's problems beneath the surface," she said. "You feel like you're in somebody else's church every Sunday."

Others said they felt betrayed that the Schullers couldn't put God before their family spat.

"They have not been forthcoming at all," said John Dewart, an insurance agent from New Jersey who's watched for 30 years. "Why can't a father and son work together for the glory of God? That's my big question."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28953451/

---

I find this quite satisfying. I'm open to the possibility that means that I am a Bad Person. I don't care.

[Samuel]

I find this quite satisfying. I'm open to the possibility that means that I am a Bad Person. I don't care.

You aren't. It just means you are an antitheist. But we already knew that.

[Dominus Atheos]

How the hell much does it cost to run a church? There's the initial investment to build the damn thing, but then after that the day-to-day costs shouldn't be very much. Most of it's employees are volunteers, right? How much does it cost to buy an hour of Sunday morning television time that $65 million isn't going to cover it for very long? The only thing I can think of is Schuller must be taking home a huge paycheck, and would rather threaten to go off the air then reduce it.

[The Spartan]

How the hell much does it cost to run a church?

Depends on the church. They may have other programs that cost money: after school day care, preschool, perhaps even a private school, charitable suborganizations. If they have $65million worth of property to sell then they probably have quite a bit of real estate. If they run a nation wide syndicated program then they probably also run nationwide commercials for it. Then there's this bit:

The church's main sanctuary, the Crystal Cathedral, is a landmark designed by renowned architect Philip Johnson, with a spire visible from afar amid Orange County's suburban sprawl. Thousands make the pilgrimage to see where the broadcast is filmed before a live congregation.

I'm reminded of a mega-church here in Houston, that has a live broadcast, and holds their sermons in what I still call the Summit, but what for a time was called the Compaq Center. It's where I went as a child to see the circus or, later, to watch the Aeros play and it's where the Rockets used to play. (Look up Joel Olsteen and you'll get the picture, has a slimy used car salesman feel to him) I'm not sure if this would be a problem but there's another church that I see commercials for is one north of here that always has these somewhat elaborate, and I'm sure expensive, backgrounds that presumably have something to do with that weeks sermon. (I'm not entirely certain since I don't watch this shit.)

Anyhow:

Melody Mook, a 58-year-old medical transcriptionist from El Paso, Texas, said she stopped her $25 monthly donation and is looking elsewhere for her spiritual needs. She said she dislikes the guest pastors.

"I feel hurt and confused and I'm not sure that I want to sit and watch when I know there's problems beneath the surface," she said. "You feel like you're in somebody else's church every Sunday." {You are lady!}

Others said they felt betrayed that the Schullers couldn't put God before their family spat.

"They have not been forthcoming at all," said John Dewart, an insurance agent from New Jersey who's watched for 30 years. "Why can't a father and son work together for the glory of God? That's my big question.' {Right, because there's only one possible way to do that and the sky fairy makes it clear... oh wait!}

(italics added, my comments bolded)
I only add this because sometimes schadenfreude is soooo much fun.

[The Yosemite Bear]

*makes snide comments about money changers in the temple*

ahh yes, those who fail to learn from history wind up making the same mistakes as before...

Should we send a copy of King Lear or it's Japanese version Ran?

[Patrick Degan]

And so, another Cult of Personality ministry shatters.

[Rye]

How the hell much does it cost to run a church? There's the initial investment to build the damn thing, but then after that the day-to-day costs shouldn't be very much. Most of it's employees are volunteers, right? How much does it cost to buy an hour of Sunday morning television time that $65 million isn't going to cover it for very long? The only thing I can think of is Schuller must be taking home a huge paycheck, and would rather threaten to go off the air then reduce it.

These aren't just churches, remember, they usually mix and match all sorts of media in order to get the message out, and that stuff costs shitloads. Add into this the building and upkeep of the megachurches, as well as paying the bills in general, and people less likely to give money due to the credit crunch, the cult of personality dying, etc, and yeah, the costs of such a church can be pretty impressive (especially if their pride prevents them from ever taking the cheaper option). I think you're right, though, the heads of the church are no doubt fucking wadded, I'd be surprised if that's not where it's gone.

[Mayabird]

Have any of you ever been in a megachurch? These are not just regular churches scaled up. They're like huge gaudy, tasteless, classless (as in, they have no class) temples to Mammon. They always get the most expensive state-of-the-art sound equipment and robes worthy of a monarch for the choir and have all these social events that masquerade as religious instruction. Plus the pastors usually get two or three cars and a mansion and so forth. The one near my old house in Georgia, in the middle of nowhere, with only broken country roads leading to it, had crystal chandeliers in its lobby. And it had its own gym. An entirely separate building, something that would fit well in a large college campus. These places are expensive to maintain.

And now that I'm finished saying something useful, I shall point and laugh.

[Losonti Tokash]

I'm reminded of a mega-church here in Houston, that has a live broadcast, and holds their sermons in what I still call the Summit, but what for a time was called the Compaq Center. It's where I went as a child to see the circus or, later, to watch the Aeros play and it's where the Rockets used to play. (Look up Joel Olsteen and you'll get the picture, has a slimy used car salesman feel to him)

I've gotten that feeling about the guy too, but my girlfriend's parents go there every once in a while and have taken her a couple times when she's visited and from what I hear it's not nearly as creepy or gaudy as you'd think. I've only seen the building when we drove past it on the freeway but it sure as hell doesn't look like a church.

[CmdrWilkens]

All I'm gonna say is from a professional standpoint heating, cooling, and lighting a building which regularly plays host to 10,000 people at a time is freakin expensive. Especially given that megachurches like this tend to be heavy on the lofty hugh ceiling versions of central sanctuaries. There is a shitload of air in there so when you need to mvoe it you have to get proportionally larger HVAC units to move all that air. Unfortunately because the object is to keep them as airy as possible there isn't as much service space as in most conventional commercial installations which means from the fan motor to the difussers is a long way and from the return air intakes back to the units is equally long. So even though you may only (in terms of volume alone) need a 15,000CFM unit because you have to work that much harder to get the air in and out you may scale up to a 20,000CFM unit. All this incurs maintenance costs as well as electrical, water, and gas costs.

I can say offhand just operating a small 20,000 ft^2 bit of retail or office space incurs a huge amount of cost most folks don' think abotu, scalig up to somethign this size is just ludicrous.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Have any of you ever been in a megachurch? These are not just regular churches scaled up. They're like huge gaudy, tasteless, classless (as in, they have no class) temples to Mammon. They always get the most expensive state-of-the-art sound equipment and robes worthy of a monarch for the choir and have all these social events that masquerade as religious instruction. Plus the pastors usually get two or three cars and a mansion and so forth. The one near my old house in Georgia, in the middle of nowhere, with only broken country roads leading to it, had crystal chandeliers in its lobby. And it had its own gym. An entirely separate building, something that would fit well in a large college campus. These places are expensive to maintain.

And now that I'm finished saying something useful, I shall point and laugh.

I've been to a megachurch near Richmond, Virginia a couple of times. They had a gigantic gym facility, a large industrial kitchen, an entire building attached to the sanctuary itself that I never even had the chance to look in. On the second floor of the gym facility were a series of rooms, including a lounge with a big screen TV, several video game systems, a DVD player, and leather wrap-around couches along the walls. They spend an obscene amount of money to try and make the place as appealing as possible. Hell, I've never been there, but someone once told me about a megachurch in South Carolina they went to that had a Baskin Robbins INSIDE of it (or, at least, attached to it).

[The Spartan]

I've only seen the building when we drove past it on the freeway but it sure as hell doesn't look like a church.

That's because, originally, it wasn't. Like I mentioned it used to be the Summit, then the Compaq Center and was used for concerts, the circus, NBA games, IHL games, etc.

[Solauren]

Occasionally, the forces of the free market actually work!

Is it wrong of me to want to stand over that church and qoute Megatron's Victory speech from the end of the 2nd season of Beast Wars if they end up closing?

[Venator]

To the matter of running costs - the country church I used to go to is a tiny little building, with less than half a dozen paid staff (who don't get much out of it, the organist/music directors' fee is a pennies in per-hour terms), and it still racked up a substantial annual dept despite a number of fund-raising events and general offerings/donations/etc.

Of course, there's no millionaires donating either, but then the new minister doesn't have multiple cars - he rides his bike up. Fifteen kilometers. In each direction. Three days a week.

I think he's a Terminator.

Is it wrong of me to want to stand over that church and qoute Megatron's Victory speech from the end of the 2nd season of Beast Wars if they end up closing?

Only if you fail to put the video on YouTube.

[Gil Hamilton]

Have any of you ever been in a megachurch? These are not just regular churches scaled up. They're like huge gaudy, tasteless, classless (as in, they have no class) temples to Mammon. They always get the most expensive state-of-the-art sound equipment and robes worthy of a monarch for the choir and have all these social events that masquerade as religious instruction. Plus the pastors usually get two or three cars and a mansion and so forth. The one near my old house in Georgia, in the middle of nowhere, with only broken country roads leading to it, had crystal chandeliers in its lobby. And it had its own gym. An entirely separate building, something that would fit well in a large college campus. These places are expensive to maintain.

And now that I'm finished saying something useful, I shall point and laugh.

Pennsylvania, particularly the center of the state, is somewhat famous for the multimillion dollar megachurch surrounded by a few dirt farming communities that live in abject poverty. These churches are literally the center of their lives and a significant amount of what little income they bring in goes to church coffers to support their enormous solid glass megachurch complex.

[Solauren]

Is it wrong of me to want to stand over that church and qoute Megatron's Victory speech from the end of the 2nd season of Beast Wars if they end up closing?

Only if you fail to put the video on YouTube.

Let me know when it closes, and I'll see what I can do.

[whackadoodle]

Have any of you ever been in a megachurch? These are not just regular churches scaled up. They're like huge gaudy, tasteless, classless (as in, they have no class) temples to Mammon. They always get the most expensive state-of-the-art sound equipment and robes worthy of a monarch for the choir and have all these social events that masquerade as religious instruction. Plus the pastors usually get two or three cars and a mansion and so forth. The one near my old house in Georgia, in the middle of nowhere, with only broken country roads leading to it, had crystal chandeliers in its lobby. And it had its own gym. An entirely separate building, something that would fit well in a large college campus. These places are expensive to maintain.

And now that I'm finished saying something useful, I shall point and laugh.

Which one? Surely not Hebron, in Dacula, with its ever-expanding asphalt halo? I am convinced that it's congregation is trying to compete with the kudzu and the? Dale Earnhardt memorabilia industry in driving Georgia's inhabitants into the sea?

-Ghetto edit: Could someone delete my screwup above? I apologize, but this is m first time on a phpBB.

[Kanastrous]

Ever since I first saw the Crystal Cathedral I've entertained fantasies of flying an F-16 at about 1500' AGL, selecting reheat and breaking Mach directly overhead.

Of course first I'd have to learn to fly an F-16. But that's why it's a fantasy.

[FSTargetDrone]

Costs... I wonder what it costs to simply clean all of those windows.

[Kanastrous]

Hmm.

(starts new fantasy involving thousands of trained pigeons...)

[Mayabird]

Have any of you ever been in a megachurch? These are not just regular churches scaled up. They're like huge gaudy, tasteless, classless (as in, they have no class) temples to Mammon. They always get the most expensive state-of-the-art sound equipment and robes worthy of a monarch for the choir and have all these social events that masquerade as religious instruction. Plus the pastors usually get two or three cars and a mansion and so forth. The one near my old house in Georgia, in the middle of nowhere, with only broken country roads leading to it, had crystal chandeliers in its lobby. And it had its own gym. An entirely separate building, something that would fit well in a large college campus. These places are expensive to maintain.

And now that I'm finished saying something useful, I shall point and laugh.

Which one? Surely not Hebron, in Dacula, with its ever-expanding asphalt halo? I am convinced that it's congregation is trying to compete with the kudzu and the? Dale Earnhardt memorabilia industry in driving Georgia's inhabitants into the sea?

-Ghetto edit: Could someone delete my screwup above? I apologize, but this is m first time on a phpBB.

Nope, different one in a different town, though both these places display the same expensive lack of taste. About par for the course of a megachurch, and these monstrosities are all over the place. I wonder what their building standards are. My guesses lean towards "shoddy."

I hadn't heard about the Baskins Robbins inside a church, but I had heard about a few that had coffeeshops inside.

[CmdrWilkens]

Costs... I wonder what it costs to simply clean all of those windows.

A 30-40' scissor lift or boom lift will run you anywhere from $250/day to $500/day. Assuming that you are talking about needing to push the envelope lets stick with the high end. You are gonna need a couple folks on your crew, at lest two, cost of labor including insurance, bonding, and supplies coudl run anywhere from $10/hr to $20/hr but the church isn't gonna pinch pennies and go with the cheap guys which means something on the order of $15-$17.50/hr for labor. I'm not gonna estimate how much glass that is but we are easily talking about, on a rough call, two days worth of work so call it 32 man/hours adn $1000 bucks for the lift. Add in miscellaneous costs and each window cleaning is gonna be at least $1500, now do that once a week and you are looking at about $75k in annual cleaning costs...just for the windows.

[FSTargetDrone]

A 30-40' scissor lift or boom lift will run you anywhere from $250/day to $500/day. Assuming that you are talking about needing to push the envelope lets stick with the high end. You are gonna need a couple folks on your crew, at lest two, cost of labor including insurance, bonding, and supplies coudl run anywhere from $10/hr to $20/hr but the church isn't gonna pinch pennies and go with the cheap guys which means something on the order of $15-$17.50/hr for labor. I'm not gonna estimate how much glass that is but we are easily talking about, on a rough call, two days worth of work so call it 32 man/hours adn $1000 bucks for the lift. Add in miscellaneous costs and each window cleaning is gonna be at least $1500, now do that once a week and you are looking at about $75k in annual cleaning costs...just for the windows.

According to this security firm:

More than 10,000 windows of tempered silver-colored glass create a reflective cover of almost 25,000 square feet. They are held in place by a honeycombed space-frame scaffolding of 16,000 white steel trusses, which are in the shape of an elongated cross. It is 415 feet in length, 207 feet wide, and 128 feet high.

It's a lot of glass. Assuming they clean the inside less frequently than the outside, it's still looks like a big job.

[CmdrWilkens]

A 30-40' scissor lift or boom lift will run you anywhere from $250/day to $500/day. Assuming that you are talking about needing to push the envelope lets stick with the high end. You are gonna need a couple folks on your crew, at lest two, cost of labor including insurance, bonding, and supplies coudl run anywhere from $10/hr to $20/hr but the church isn't gonna pinch pennies and go with the cheap guys which means something on the order of $15-$17.50/hr for labor. I'm not gonna estimate how much glass that is but we are easily talking about, on a rough call, two days worth of work so call it 32 man/hours adn $1000 bucks for the lift. Add in miscellaneous costs and each window cleaning is gonna be at least $1500, now do that once a week and you are looking at about $75k in annual cleaning costs...just for the windows.

According to this security firm:

More than 10,000 windows of tempered silver-colored glass create a reflective cover of almost 25,000 square feet. They are held in place by a honeycombed space-frame scaffolding of 16,000 white steel trusses, which are in the shape of an elongated cross. It is 415 feet in length, 207 feet wide, and 128 feet high.

It's a lot of glass. Assuming they clean the inside less frequently than the outside, it's still looks like a big job.

Well toss out the previous estimates because a 40' boom lift isn't going to do the job. You are goonna start looking at some system of platforms on pulleys and some boom lifts on the interior. Now you are looking at a huge increase in labor costs since the insurance and training for someone using a platform rather than a scissor or boom lift is much greater. For that amount of space we would be looking at a full team of washers working on a contiuous schedule throughout the week. If its costs them less than half a mil per year just in window cleaning (forget the rest of your janitorial bill) then I'd be shocked.

I honestly didn't realize the scope of this damn thing, yeah cleaning alone would clear out tithing of a lot of rich folk.

[Kanastrous]

Maybe Jesus just miracles their asses up there with a couple bottles of Windex, come cleaning time.