Al Quaeda "decimated"...

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Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by MKSheppard »

At least according to NPR...

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U.S. Officials: Al-Qaida Leadership Cadre 'Decimated'
by Tom Gjelten
Morning Edition, February 3, 2009

CIA-directed airstrikes against al-Qaida leaders and facilities in Pakistan over the past six to nine months have been so successful, according to senior U.S. officials, that it is now possible to foresee a "complete al-Qaida defeat" in the mountainous region along the border with Afghanistan.

The officials say the terrorist network's leadership cadre has been "decimated," with up to a dozen senior and midlevel operatives killed as a result of the strikes and the remaining leaders reeling from the repeated attacks.

"The enemy is really, really struggling," says one senior U.S. counterterrorism official. "These attacks have produced the broadest, deepest and most rapid reduction in al-Qaida senior leadership that we've seen in several years."

Another senior U.S. official described "a significant, significant degradation of al-Qaida command and control in recent months."

The intelligence reports have been shared with President Barack Obama and underlie his decision to authorize the continued use of unmanned aircraft to launch missile and precision-guided bombs against suspected al-Qaida targets in Pakistan's border region. One such strike was carried out on Jan. 23, just three days after Obama took office.

The CIA has been using drone aircraft to carry out attacks on suspected al-Qaida and Taliban targets in Pakistan for several years, but such attacks were significantly expanded last summer under orders from President George W. Bush. They also became more lethal, with the CIA for the first time using Reaper drones, an enhanced version of the Predator model used previously. The Reaper is capable of carrying two Hellfire missiles, as well as precision-guided bombs.

'Too Early To Declare Victory'

The officials interviewed by NPR asked not to be identified because of sensitivities surrounding the CIA campaign. They also insist it is too early to declare victory in the struggle against al-Qaida in the Afghanistan-Pakistan border region, and they caution that a number of the factors that explain the recent successes could yet be reversed.

The threat of another al-Qaida terrorist attack against the United States has not gone away, they warn, noting that about 100 fighters have already "graduated" from the al-Qaida training camps and are prepared for possible terrorist operations in the West.

"Where those people are and what they're doing, we don't know," says one senior official.

The officials are also careful to say that the weakening of al-Qaida in Pakistan doesn't necessarily extend to the network's operations in other areas, such as in east or north Africa.

Leadership Severely Weakened

Still, the counterterrorism and intelligence officials interviewed for this report say the achievement of the past several months should not be understated.

"In the past, you could take out the No. 3 al-Qaida leader, and No. 4 just moved up to take his place," says one official. "Well, if you take out No. 3, No. 4 and then 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, it suddenly becomes a lot more difficult to revive the leadership cadre."

Such claims could not be independently verified, although Pakistani sources have identified by name a number of foreign militants killed in the border region in recent months.

U.S. intelligence agencies regularly monitor telephone and Internet communications involving suspected al-Qaida operatives.

"We know that they know how bad this is for them," one official says. "We see al-Qaida guessing, trying to figure out how this is happening, and they haven't figured it out yet."

The U.S. officials interviewed for this report attribute the success to improved intelligence on al-Qaida operations in the border area, some of it gathered as a result of "human penetration" of the network.

The officials also report the emergence of some tension between the al-Qaida leadership and local tribal leaders in the border areas. They warn, however, that this tension is, in part, the product of increased Pakistani military activity in the border areas, a development that could be reversed if the Pakistani authorities turn their attention back toward India as a result of tensions stemming from the November attacks in Mumbai.

Al-Qaida Still May Endure And Adapt

The claims of dramatic success against al-Qaida in Pakistan will undoubtedly be met with some skepticism.

"In the past 7 1/2 years, al-Qaida's obituary has been written any number of times," says Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism expert at Georgetown University. "We have to be hesitant in assessing the long-term impact of this kind of damage done to al-Qaida."

Hoffman and other al-Qaida analysts note that the network has demonstrated many times over its ability to endure attacks and adapt to new pressures.

Another question is whether the Pakistani government will demand an end to the drone attacks, which have been roundly denounced by Pakistani political leaders as a violation of their country's sovereignty. For now, however, it appears the Obama administration is determined to continue with the attacks.

In a Senate hearing last week, Defense Secretary Robert Gates was asked to respond to recent criticism of the missile strikes by the Pakistani Foreign Ministry.

"I think that the strikes that are being undertaken are …" Gates began, but he did not finish the thought. "Let me just say," he continued, "both President Bush and President Obama have made clear that we will go after al-Qaida wherever al-Qaida is. And we will continue to pursue that."
Hun, I like that line:

"Well, if you take out No. 3, No. 4 and then 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, it suddenly becomes a lot more difficult to revive the leadership cadre."

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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Samuel »

CIA-directed airstrikes against al-Qaida leaders and facilities in Pakistan over the past six to nine months have been so successful, according to senior U.S. officials, that it is now possible to foresee a "complete al-Qaida defeat" in the mountainous region along the border with Afghanistan.
This is new to me. We have been bumping off the leadership for a while (with the corresponding "they are decentralizing), but this specifically in Afghanistan is new. Without coordination terror cells can exist, but an effective resistance can't.

I take it that the US is winning? Does this mean we will eventually be able to leave Iraq and Afghanistan without them becoming failed states?
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Coyote »

A lot of "officials" and "experts" are quoted, but not many military officers on the ground who are in a position to see results happening. Considering that al-Quaeda, just a few months ago, was "dominating the countryside" and "moving with impunity across the borders" I think I need to wait and see before signing on to this. It may just be a lull period in combat...

But they should avoid any "light at the end of the tunnel" and "turning the corner" pronouncements.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Phantasee »

Coyote wrote:A lot of "officials" and "experts" are quoted, but not many military officers on the ground who are in a position to see results happening. Considering that al-Quaeda, just a few months ago, was "dominating the countryside" and "moving with impunity across the borders" I think I need to wait and see before signing on to this. It may just be a lull period in combat...

But they should avoid any "light at the end of the tunnel" and "turning the corner" pronouncements.
I thought it was the Taliban "dominating the countryside"? And I thought the Taliban and al Qaeda were separate forces (acting jointly, of course, but separate).
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Molyneux »

So for every ten terrorist leaders before we started this, there are now...nine? :wtf:

Pardon me if that doesn't sound too encouraging.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Molyneux wrote:So for every ten terrorist leaders before we started this, there are now...nine? :wtf:

Pardon me if that doesn't sound too encouraging.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Darth Wong »

So ... many years after Bush declared that it was a stupid idea to go after Bin Laden by firing cruise missiles at him, we're going back to drones and missiles, and it's working?

It certainly seems like a better strategy than invading an unrelated country like Iraq.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Lonestar »

Darth Wong wrote:So ... many years after Bush declared that it was a stupid idea to go after Bin Laden by firing cruise missiles at him, we're going back to drones and missiles, and it's working?

It certainly seems like a better strategy than invading an unrelated country like Iraq.
Bill Clinton fired cruise missiles at Bin Laden once, as opposed to the current doctrine of persistent presence. Bit of a difference in doctrine there.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Aratech »

Darth Wong wrote:So ... many years after Bush declared that it was a stupid idea to go after Bin Laden by firing cruise missiles at him, we're going back to drones and missiles, and it's working?

It certainly seems like a better strategy than invading an unrelated country like Iraq.
If nothing else, (though perhaps I am missing something (Military folk, please correct me if I'm wrong)) but it seems that there would also be something of a psychological warfare edge in employing missiles and UAV drones. I would imagine that the average AQ terrorist would be irked, if not terrified, by the notion that the enemy he's fighting can essentially strike 'without warning' from anywhere, and the best you can possibly hope for is that you might, on a good day, be able to mildly inconvenience him by knocking the drone out of the sky.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Lonestar »

Aratech wrote: If nothing else, (though perhaps I am missing something (Military folk, please correct me if I'm wrong)) but it seems that there would also be something of a psychological warfare edge in employing missiles and UAV drones.
The difference is that Clinton made a half-ass effort to go after OBL once(with Cruise missiles using dated intel) while the current doctrine of a persistent presence (with strikes on, what? A monthly? Weekly? Daily basis) allows somewhat more up-to-date intelligence and more targets of opportunity.


The difference between the two approaches is not a hard one to wrap your head around.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Darth Wong »

Lonestar wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:So ... many years after Bush declared that it was a stupid idea to go after Bin Laden by firing cruise missiles at him, we're going back to drones and missiles, and it's working?

It certainly seems like a better strategy than invading an unrelated country like Iraq.
Bill Clinton fired cruise missiles at Bin Laden once, as opposed to the current doctrine of persistent presence. Bit of a difference in doctrine there.
It seems more like a difference in available assets than a different in doctrine. We have a lot more of those toys now, and we can actually maintain that "persistent presence". It's certainly a better idea than trying to draw Al-Qaeda out of Pakistan by invading Iraq.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Aratech »

Lonestar wrote:
Aratech wrote: If nothing else, (though perhaps I am missing something (Military folk, please correct me if I'm wrong)) but it seems that there would also be something of a psychological warfare edge in employing missiles and UAV drones.
The difference is that Clinton made a half-ass effort to go after OBL once(with Cruise missiles using dated intel) while the current doctrine of a persistent presence (with strikes on, what? A monthly? Weekly? Daily basis) allows somewhat more up-to-date intelligence and more targets of opportunity.


The difference between the two approaches is not a hard one to wrap your head around.
Ahh, that makes more sense. My thanks, Sir.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

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Lonestar wrote:The difference is that Clinton made a half-ass effort to go after OBL once(with Cruise missiles using dated intel) while the current doctrine of a persistent presence (with strikes on, what? A monthly? Weekly? Daily basis) allows somewhat more up-to-date intelligence and more targets of opportunity.

The difference between the two approaches is not a hard one to wrap your head around.
I wasn't aware that there was actually a doctrine of using "dated intel" under Clinton. That seems more like an implementation problem due to limited assets.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Lonestar »

Darth Wong wrote: It seems more like a difference in available assets than a different in doctrine. We have a lot more of those toys now, and we can actually maintain that "persistent presence". It's certainly a better idea than trying to draw Al-Qaeda out of Pakistan by invading Iraq.
We had many of the same toys during the late Clinton administration that we have now, including Predator UAVs and most of the PGMs that are being used in these kind of current attacks(and making most of the headlines). Hell, we use P-3 Orion patrol craft for Recon missions over Afghanistan all the damn time because of their ability to loiter for long periods of time, and that airplane was introduced in the early '60s.

It was a lack of political will on Clinton's part(because of the obvious difficulties that getting Central Asian countries onboard for without a super-duper justification, the unwillingness the relax sanctions on Pakistan imposed because of it's nuclear weapons program) that prevented the United States from using it's toys. Even the toys that we could use with relative impunity(TLAMs, Stealth aircraft) weren't used because we had nothing in-country that provided anything remotely like real time intelligence.
I wasn't aware that there was actually a doctrine of using "dated intel" under Clinton. That seems more like an implementation problem due to limited assets.
The lack of political will to put stuff resembling real-time intelligence assets over Afghanistan and Pakistan means that we would have to rely upon stuff like satellites and signals collection(from Naval ships) to make calls. And since we don't have any drones or warplanes over Afghanistan we aren't going to have any rapid response no matter how quickly it crawls up the chain of command. TLAMs are not what one would call "fast".
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Darth Wong »

None of that seems like a difference in doctrine; it all falls more into the category of "what can we get away with, given the geo-political climate and the attitudes of our own voters", which is a strategic limitation. We're still talking about using targeted airstrikes based on remote intel in an attempt to nail the Al-Qaeda leadership: same doctrine, but more effectively implemented due to major changes in geo-political situation over the last decade.

You have still not provided any justification for this bizarre notion that limitations in intel quality or political feasibility were actually a matter of doctrine.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Lonestar »

Darth Wong wrote:None of that seems like a difference in doctrine; it all falls more into the category of "what can we get away with, given the geo-political climate and the attitudes of our own voters", which is a strategic limitation. We're still talking about using targeted airstrikes based on remote intel in an attempt to nail the Al-Qaeda leadership: same doctrine, but more effectively implemented due to major changes in geo-political situation over the last decade.

You have still not provided any justification for this bizarre notion that limitations in intel quality or political feasibility were actually a matter of doctrine.
Fine. The difference is that the Bush Administration was willing and able to use a myriad of tools and personnel to create a persistent presence using those UAVs and missiles that have been in service since the mid-90s. Clinton fired some cruise missiles off at a camp in Afghanistan and determined that that was the absolute maximum he would be willing to go after a guy who "only" orchestrated the blowing up of embassies and a USN vessel. His decision to not do what the Pentagon determined was needed to apprehend or kill senior Al Qaeda leadership(Topple the Taliban, establish a persistent presence in the-country) means he was altering Pentagon military strategies(or at least picking a specific strategy, a doctrine, if you will, from a set presented to him)

Your original post:
So ... many years after Bush declared that it was a stupid idea to go after Bin Laden by firing cruise missiles at him, we're going back to drones and missiles, and it's working?
Implies that you are either mocking the United States for using drones and missiles(and are unable to see how the Bush and Obama administrations are using them differs from how the Clinton administration used them) or you are saying that if we had kept up "using drones and missiles" we would have done a better job(and again, implying that you are unable to differentiate in how the Bush/Obama Administrations used/are using the assets and how the Clinton Administration did).

EDIT: Honestly, I'm not trying to be snappish with that last paragraph, but those are the two interpretations of that quote I see.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Darth Wong »

Lonestar wrote:Fine. The difference is that the Bush Administration was willing and able to use a myriad of tools and personnel to create a persistent presence using those UAVs and missiles that have been in service since the mid-90s. Clinton fired some cruise missiles off at a camp in Afghanistan and determined that that was the absolute maximum he would be willing to go after a guy who "only" orchestrated the blowing up of embassies and a USN vessel.
Were you even alive during this period? Clinton was being roasted alive for what people believed to be foreign distractions from domestic policy at the time. He did as much as was politically feasible at the time. The Republicans were all over him for what they called foreign adventurism and nation-building. Bush even ran on a foreign-policy platform of "no more nation-building", remember? It was not a matter of policy; it was a matter of what he could get away with.
His decision to not do what the Pentagon determined was needed to apprehend or kill senior Al Qaeda leadership(Topple the Taliban, establish a persistent presence in the-country) means he was altering Pentagon military strategies(or at least picking a specific strategy, a doctrine, if you will, from a set presented to him)
You and I appear to have drastically different ideas of what the word "doctrine" means. Saying that Clinton should have invaded Afghanistan and toppled the Taliban in the late 90s is more akin to some kind of alt-history fantasy than a realistic strategy. The American people would never have stood for it. Not for an instant, and you know it. That is not a matter of "doctrine"; that is a matter of geo-political limitations, which all military strategists must recognize.
Your original post:
So ... many years after Bush declared that it was a stupid idea to go after Bin Laden by firing cruise missiles at him, we're going back to drones and missiles, and it's working?
Implies that you are either mocking the United States for using drones and missiles(and are unable to see how the Bush and Obama administrations are using them differs from how the Clinton administration used them) or you are saying that if we had kept up "using drones and missiles" we would have done a better job(and again, implying that you are unable to differentiate in how the Bush/Obama Administrations used/are using the assets and how the Clinton Administration did).
Funny how I mock Bush and you think that means I'm mocking "the United States". And you haven't shown anything wrong with Clinton's doctrine other than stating your bizarre belief that invading Afghanistan was actually a strategically realistic option in the late 1990s, or pretending that because Predator UAVs have existed since the mid 1990s, there has been no real change in their effectiveness since then (they didn't even have weapons back then). They still can't go and establish a "persistent presence" on the ground in the key regions on the Pakistan border; all they can is overflight and the occasional missile strike, which takes us back to Bush's statement mocking the idea of using targeted missile strikes to decapitate the Al-Qaeda organization.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Ekiqa »

Darth Wong wrote:pretending that because Predator UAVs have existed since the mid 1990s
To be fair, Predators HAVE been around since the mid 90's. They were used over the Balkans in 1995 by the CIA and the USAF.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

Ekiqa wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: pretending that because Predator UAVs have existed since the mid 1990s
To be fair, Predators HAVE been around since the mid 90's. They were used over the Balkans in 1995 by the CIA and the USAF.
Perhaps you should reread that entire sentence rather than just the part you just quoted. I think he meant something different than the way you took that.

Edit: to fix quote tags.
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Re: Al Quaeda "decimated"...

Post by Lonestar »

I concede the argument.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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