South Carolina: Celebrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

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South Carolina: Celebrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

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A black state senator is pushing a bill that would require South Carolina cities and counties to give their workers a paid day off for Confederate Memorial Day or lose millions in state funds.

Democratic Sen. Robert Ford's bill won initial approval from a Senate subcommittee Tuesday. It would force county and municipal governments to follow the schedule of holidays used by the state, which gives workers 12 paid days off, including May 10 to honor Confederate war dead. Mississippi and Alabama also recognize Confederate Memorial Day.

Years ago, Ford said, he pushed a bill to make both that day and Martin Luther King Jr. Day paid holidays. He considered it an effort to help people understand the history of both the civil rights movement and the Confederacy in a state where the Orders of Secession are engraved in marble in the Statehouse lobby, portraits of Confederate generals look down on legislators in their chambers and the Confederate flag flies outside.

"Every municipality and every citizen of South Carolina, should be, well, forced to respect these two days and learn what they can about those two particular parts of our history," Ford said Tuesday.

In a state steeped in a segregationist past, "there's no love in this state between black and white basically," he said. That's not apparent at the Statehouse, where black and white legislators get along, "but if you go out there in real South Carolina, it's hatred and I think we can bring our people together."

Lonnie Randolph, president of the state conference of NAACP branches, objected to that reasoning.

"Here Senator Ford is talking about the importance of race relations by forcing recognition of people who did everything they could to destroy another race — particularly those that look like I do," Randolph said. "You can't make dishonor honorable. It's impossible."

Ron Dorgay, a Sons of Confederate Veterans member from Elgin, said race relations have moved far from hatred but he hopes Ford's bill brings more understanding of the state's past.

"Even in school systems, they don't teach the correct history," Dorgay said.

Local governments, meanwhile, are seeing green, not race, when it comes to adding holidays to their calendars.

Large and small counties would put up more cash to cover holidays they don't now recognize, largely for law enforcement and emergency worker overtime, municipal and county association lobbyists said.

Only 10 of the state's 46 counties recognize Confederate Memorial Day and only 27 observe the more benign Presidents' Day.

Greenville County, one of the state's wealthiest and most populous counties, doesn't offer the Confederate holiday. The Judiciary Committee said the county would spend $156,900 to add each holiday to its calendar. Much smaller Laurens County would spend $37,080.

Ford dismissed the costs.

"The good outweighs any kind of rationale you can come up with," he said before the subcommittee sent the bill forward to the full Senate Judiciary Committee for debate, which won't happen until at least next week.

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Glenn McConnell, R-Charleston, supports the bill — and holding back chunks of the more than $300 million the state sends local governments each year.

Counties and cities "should be respectful of that as political subdivisions of the state," said McConnell, a Civil War re-enactor who runs a Charleston Confederate wares gallery and on Tuesday fretted how new junk metal collection legislation might affect his cannon. "If they don't want to be a subdivision of the state, then don't take the money."
This guy's collected arguments is that it's so desperately important to understand and respect traitors and insurgents that no amount of civil harm can outweigh it.

I want what he's got prescribed.

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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Dominus Atheos »

SirNitram wrote:South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.
I'm confused. Are we supposed to be celebrating the Confederacy or not having sex with the Confederacy?

Edit: Goddammit Nitram, stop posting while I'm making an edit! :P
Last edited by Dominus Atheos on 2009-02-04 04:34am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by SirNitram »

Dominus Atheos wrote:
SirNitram wrote:South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.
I'm confused. Are we supposed to be celebrating the Confederacy or not having sex with the Confederacy?
I fail spelling while medicated. I can't even remember the right one.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

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I wonder if this is some bizarre case of political games; this senator supports promotion of a Traitors' Memorial, er, "Confederate Memorial" Day and some pet project he has gets support from others.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Steve wrote:I wonder if this is some bizarre case of political games; this senator supports promotion of a Traitors' Memorial, er, "Confederate Memorial" Day and some pet project he has gets support from others.
I think it’s exactly that. He’s either got a product he wants funded, or he wants to put a big favor in the bank for next year, so he’s being the flag man to propose this law. But I guess it is possible he really is just dumb enough to think that a holiday for the Confederacy will fight racism.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Havok »

I'm curious as to why anyone has a problem with commemorating dead soldiers that fought for their lands and the recognized government of those lands. People don't fault the German Army, Navy and Air Force for fighting for Hitler, we don't hate the British citizens that fought for their lands in America? Why should we fault the people in the American southern states for fighting for who was in control of their lands at the time?
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

havokeff wrote:I'm curious as to why anyone has a problem with commemorating dead soldiers that fought for their lands and the recognized government of those lands. People don't fault the German Army, Navy and Air Force for fighting for Hitler, we don't hate the British citizens that fought for their lands in America? Why should we fault the people in the American southern states for fighting for who was in control of their lands at the time?
Well personally I don't think loyalty to your government should give you a complete free pass. But remember, the Confederacy weren't fighting for a legal government, were they?

Also, when was the last time you saw a monument to the dead of Nazi Germany? I sure haven't seen any, but maybe their are some in Europe.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Qwerty 42 »

I have, very frequently, seen Confederate ceremonies lumped under conventional Memorial Day services, for what it's worth.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by The Spartan »

I once hear someone say that the Confederate soldiers were fighting for what they believe in and so we were therefore obligated to honor them.

My response was to, well, invoke Godwin's law and wonder why we're not also supposed to honor the Waffen SS. After all, they were only fighting for something they believe in. The non-Godwin version of that is, of course, to point out that what they were fighting for was repugnant and that I see absolutely no reason to honor them whatsoever.
The Romulan Republic wrote:Well personally I don't think loyalty to your government should give you a complete free pass. But remember, the Confederacy weren't fighting for a legal government, were they?
Strictly speaking, neither were the founding fathers.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by NecronLord »

havokeff wrote:I'm curious as to why anyone has a problem with commemorating dead soldiers that fought for their lands and the recognized government of those lands. People don't fault the German Army, Navy and Air Force for fighting for Hitler,
Volkstrauertag, the (West, communists had something else) German rememberance day, has since 1948 also been devoted to remembering the victims of both the Third Reich, and other opressive regimes worldwide. I see no such provision for the victims of the Confederacy (and earlier United States) in this proposal. Limpwristed 'learn all about' nonsense aside, this is clearly a holiday for Confederate War Dead (who, yes, included freemen of color, and even slaves, I know full well).
we don't hate the British citizens that fought for their lands in America? Why should we fault the people in the American southern states for fighting for who was in control of their lands at the time?
America already has a (at least one) rememberance day I am aware of. This would be a special day solely devoted to one particular group of soldiers who died defending a nation that existed to preserve slavery. Revisionism aside, the South Carolina declaration of independance from the United States specifically cites the US' 'unconstitutional' moves to ban slavery as their reason for withdrawl from the union. It's a specific holiday commemorating those who died to preserve slavery. Should then, the Italians have a special day to celebrate the soldiers who were killed in battle by Spartacus?
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by MKSheppard »

Nothing beats Lee-Jackson-King Day :mrgreen:

Since we're on the talk of Confederates...
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

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MKSheppard wrote:Nothing beats Lee-Jackson-King Day :mrgreen:

Since we're on the talk of Confederates...
Barack Obama wrote:I am seriously glad to be here tonight at the annual Alfalfa dinner. I know that many you are aware that this dinner began almost one hundred years ago as a way to celebrate the birthday of General Robert E. Lee. If he were here with us tonight, the General would be 202 years old. And very confused.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Bilbo »

I say we make the day January 8. The we make it a memorial for James Longstreet. That will really get the South Carolinians panties in a bunch.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Darth Wong »

havokeff wrote:I'm curious as to why anyone has a problem with commemorating dead soldiers that fought for their lands and the recognized government of those lands. People don't fault the German Army, Navy and Air Force for fighting for Hitler, we don't hate the British citizens that fought for their lands in America? Why should we fault the people in the American southern states for fighting for who was in control of their lands at the time?
Why shouldn't people fault the Nazis for fighting for Hitler? Sure, some of them may have been dragged into it against their will, but the German people generally supported him. Same goes for the Confederacy; who the fuck honestly thinks these people generally opposed slavery?
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

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Darth Wong wrote:Same goes for the Confederacy; who the fuck honestly thinks these people generally opposed slavery?
Do you want me to start typing names or should I just point vaguely in the direction of everywhere around me?

The whole post-war apologist movement succeeded in implanting what is now held as almost holy writ: it was never about slavery, it was about our rights! And since the majority of soldiers (indeed, citizens) of the Confederacy did not own slaves this has somehow continued to be held as true. Hell, I was taught this, as a matter of course since I started getting history lessons at both private and public school. I wasn't aware of the contents of the declarations of succession until I read about them on this site. And people get mad when you point it out to them, especially when you include the whole "cornerstone" thing that the Vice President had made in a speech.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Darth Wong »

Yeah, but you're in Texas. Half those fuckers would like to have slavery back in force today.

You can't argue with people like this. I ran into one of those "the South was on the verge of giving up slavery anyway" idiots a while ago, and when I pointed out that their economy was constructed in such a way that it would be a huge catastrophe for them to do so, he completely ignored the point and started listing names of books he'd read which supported his viewpoint.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by The Spartan »

Well, you did ask. :wink:

More seriously though, imagine how surreal it is trying to argue with a black man, and him getting pissed off with you, that the Civil War was about slavery and that the majority of the citizens were not good, decent, unracist folk.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

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Darth Wong wrote:Yeah, but you're in Texas. Half those fuckers would like to have slavery back in force today
Actually I think it is more along the lines of "If I knew it was going to be like this, I would have picked my own damn cotton." I've been hearing that for years.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Darth Wong »

The Spartan wrote:Well, you did ask. :wink:

More seriously though, imagine how surreal it is trying to argue with a black man, and him getting pissed off with you, that the Civil War was about slavery and that the majority of the citizens were not good, decent, unracist folk.
That's why the phrase "Appeal to Biography" is a handy one to keep around. He can't automatically claim inerrancy on it just because he's black. He didn't live through that period any more than you did. It only means he's been hoodwinked by the same propaganda campaign you're complaining about.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Tanasinn »

People don't fault the German Army, Navy and Air Force for fighting for Hitler
Considering that they by and large willingly fought a war of aggression for Germany's benefit without any regard to human life, I certainly do.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Darth Wong »

havokeff wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Yeah, but you're in Texas. Half those fuckers would like to have slavery back in force today
Actually I think it is more along the lines of "If I knew it was going to be like this, I would have picked my own damn cotton." I've been hearing that for years.
In other words, "if we knew we were going to lose the Civil War, we would have capitulated early". Every loser can say that. It doesn't change the fact that they fought for slavery. It only means that it sucks to lose.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Steve wrote:I wonder if this is some bizarre case of political games; this senator supports promotion of a Traitors' Memorial, er, "Confederate Memorial" Day and some pet project he has gets support from others.
I think it’s exactly that. He’s either got a product he wants funded, or he wants to put a big favor in the bank for next year, so he’s being the flag man to propose this law. But I guess it is possible he really is just dumb enough to think that a holiday for the Confederacy will fight racism.

What I saw about it suggested it was actually a quid-pro-quo deal where recognition of the Confederacy through a formal holiday would result in Martin Luther King day being made a formal holiday in South Carolina, where it currently isn't.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by CarsonPalmer »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: What I saw about it suggested it was actually a quid-pro-quo deal where recognition of the Confederacy through a formal holiday would result in Martin Luther King day being made a formal holiday in South Carolina, where it currently isn't.
You have to love South Carolina. They must be waiting for John C. Calhoun to rise from his grave or something.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by SirNitram »

The Spartan wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Well personally I don't think loyalty to your government should give you a complete free pass. But remember, the Confederacy weren't fighting for a legal government, were they?
Strictly speaking, neither were the founding fathers.
Victors, history books.

Also, the Founding Father's had the good sense to admit they were all traitors.
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Re: South Carolina: Celibrate the Confederacy or lose millions.

Post by Havok »

Darth Wong wrote:
havokeff wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Yeah, but you're in Texas. Half those fuckers would like to have slavery back in force today
Actually I think it is more along the lines of "If I knew it was going to be like this, I would have picked my own damn cotton." I've been hearing that for years.
In other words, "if we knew we were going to lose the Civil War, we would have capitulated early". Every loser can say that. It doesn't change the fact that they fought for slavery. It only means that it sucks to lose.
The people that I've heard say it, none of which are in the south as I don't live there, are referring to black "culture" and attitudes that they don't like. Your "in other words" works just as well though.
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