Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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By Adrian Blomfield, Moscow Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:14AM GMT 06 Feb 2009

The Daily Telegraph has learned that the 85-year-old former US secretary of state met President Dmitry Medvedev for secret negotiations in December. According to Western diplomats, during two days of talks the octogenarian courted Russian officials to win their support for Mr Obama's initiative, which could see Russia and the United States each slashing their nuclear warheads to 1,000 warheads.

The decision to send Mr Kissinger to Moscow, taken by Mr Obama when he was still president-elect, is part of a plan to overcome probable Republican objections in Congress.

Mr Kissinger is believed to have won a verbal rather than written undertaking for the deal. Tom Graham, a senior associate at Kissinger Associates and a former member of the national security council in the White House, on Thursday confirmed that Mr Kissinger had met Mr Medvedev but denied that any negotiations had taken place and said he had not met with Mr Putin.

However, a diplomatic source said that Mr Kissinger held two days of talks with Mr Putin at his country house near Moscow.

While the details of the ambitious initiative are yet to be revealed, the proposal to return to the negotiating table after eight years of reluctance in Washington has been welcomed in Britain and elsewhere.

Mr Obama apparently chose Mr Kissinger for his consummate diplomatic skills and his popularity in Moscow, an affection earned by his open acknowledgment of Russia's international resurgence.

Despite his pariah status with many Left-wingers in Mr Obama's Democratic Party, the president forged relations with Mr Kissinger during his campaign.

The compliment was returned when the 85-year-old veteran of the Nixon and Ford administrations said last month that the young president was in a position to create a "new world order" by shifting US foreign policy away from the hostile stance of the Bush administration.

He publicly supported Mr Obama's notion of unconditional talks with Iran, though not at the presidential level.

Further demonstrating his willingness to work with his opponents on foreign policy issues, Mr Obama turned to two veteran Republicans steeped in Cold War experience to press home his plans.

Shortly after Mr Kissinger's trip, Richard Lugar, a Republican senator from Indiana who has worked on nuclear disarmament issues for 30 years, also visited Moscow. George Schultz, another former secretary of state, has also played a vital role.

Observers say signs of progress towards a new treaty could come as early as this weekend, when senior government officials meet at a security conference in Munich.

Joe Biden, the US vice president, is expected to address the conference and diplomats hinted he could announce the suspension of plans to erect a missile defence shield in central Europe, a project that has been frequently denounced in Moscow.

Despite widespread praise for the proposals, many European officials are privately urging the United States to be cautious, aware that Kremlin policy towards the West in recent years has been characterized by reversals. Apart from worries over Russia's increasingly belligerent international policies, there is also little doubt a disarmament deal would benefit Moscow more than Washington -- even if the Kremlin has threatened to stall talks on a new treaty in the past.

Russia has long called for a new agreement to replace the 1991 Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START), which expires on Dec 5. Under START, the two Cold War adversaries agreed to halve their stockpiles to 5,000 warheads apiece. An addendum negotiated in 2002 under the START framework saw both sides agree to cut the number of warheads in service to between 1,700 and 2,200 each.

Despite pressure from Moscow, the Bush Administration was reluctant to begin negotiations on a successor to START because it feared losing the flexibility needed to respond to potential challenges from rising nuclear powers such as China.

The Kremlin, on the other hand, has been desperate for a new treaty because Russia's dilapidated nuclear stockpile is no longer sustainable either financially or practically.

Despite developing a new class of intercontinental ballistic missiles, the bulk of Russia's arsenal has passed its sell-by date. Even though many warheads have been kept alive artificially, Russia has long been aware that most of its missiles will have to be decommissioned much faster than they can be replaced.

Nuclear parity, the crux of Moscow's defence policy, is therefore fiction in all but name. A new treaty, however, would allow Russia to compete and free up money for other armament programmes.

In return for a new disarmament deal, Mr Putin has demanded that the United States delay Nato membership for Ukraine and Georgia as well as shelving the missile shield, which Moscow believes is directed at Russia rather than Iran.

The United States is reportedly ready to accept those demands after Mr Kissinger, who is deeply respected for his recognition of Russia's resurgence, may have won concessions of his own, a diplomatic source said.

Frequent visits by Mr Kissinger to Russia since 2000 have largely gone unreported in the Western press. But in 2007, the Russian news agency Novosti reported that Mr Kissinger and Yevgeny Primakov, a former KGB master, were appointed by Mr Putin to co-chair a bilateral "working group" of Russian and American political insiders to tackle issues such as global terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and nuclear threats.

Mr Putin is understood to have signalled his willingness to drop Russian objections over tougher sanctions against Iran and could also suspend the sale of sophisticated air defence missiles to Teheran which Washington fears could hamper a military strike against the country's nuclear installations.
December, eh? :lol: I thought there was One President At A Time? One of the appealing aspects of Obama for me was his work with Dick Lugar in the unsexy world of securing loose weapons, it's good to see that he's still focused on that.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

Post by MKSheppard »

1,000 isn't enough to destroy a country. I'd feel safer with 5,000, or god forbid our peak stockpile of 32,000.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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MKSheppard wrote:1,000 isn't enough to destroy a country. I'd feel safer with 5,000, or god forbid our peak stockpile of 32,000.

1,000 is more than enough. If 1,000 nuclear warheads hit the US right now there is no level of planning that would be able to actually have the country adjust and live on as it was in the aftermath. China as we know it today would cease to exist if 1,000 nukes hit them, same with Russia.

1,000 may not be enough to compeltely eliminate the ability to respond in kind but it most certainly is mroe than enough to shatter a country. Oh sure it may take an extra 2 or 3 months but don't pretend that if we lobbed 1,000 nukes at, say China, right now that their economy woudln't collapse, agriculture would disappear, the population would contract at a double digit percentage rate, infrastructure and govenmental continuance on all levesl would be shot to hell, in other words it would become a wasteland for however long it would take for a new national order to appear...hell cleanup alone would bankrupt any nation today.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Depends on the yield of the warheads. 1000 x 200 MT = more then enough to level a country.

I'd personally feel safer with 5000 myself, but not for country leveling purposes. I'd want them in orbit to intercept incoming asteroids.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Isn't the point of the strategic deterrent that we can completely devastate one country with, say, 2000 of our 5000 nukes, and still have enough for the rest of the world? I mean, if the US just expended all its nukes on your ally, wouldn't you counterlaunch?
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Solauren wrote:Depends on the yield of the warheads.
Depends on picking the right targets.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Stas Bush wrote:
Solauren wrote:Depends on the yield of the warheads.
Depends on picking the right targets.
Yeah. Five properly-placed 500KT devices can do more damage than a single 5MT one.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Hawkwings wrote:Isn't the point of the strategic deterrent that we can completely devastate one country with, say, 2000 of our 5000 nukes, and still have enough for the rest of the world? I mean, if the US just expended all its nukes on your ally, wouldn't you counterlaunch?
I can honestly say that downgrading the stakes in the politics of Diplomacy Through Implicit Threat of Total Annihilation from "The Civilized World As We Know It" to 2-5 major countries seems to me no bad thing. The continuation/replacement of START is a laudible goal, and it's good to be reminded that the Obama administration is sticking its fingers in more pies than just a $3/4 trillion stimulus package.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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CmdrWilkens wrote: 1,000 is more than enough. If 1,000 nuclear warheads hit the US right now there is no level of planning that would be able to actually have the country adjust and live on as it was in the aftermath. China as we know it today would cease to exist if 1,000 nukes hit them, same with Russia.
Except that nothing like 100% of the warheads fired will reach the target, let alone go boom when they do, especially since the US stockpile is in fact much older then the Russian bombs since we initially engineered them for longer lives. In addition this warhead cap counts all deployed nuclear warheads, which includes an awful lot of tactical weapons we need to keep around. Russia and China also have a rather vast number of deep bunkers we must hold at risk, and that eats up hundreds of warheads on its own. As Germany and Japan showed, you pretty well can blow away every city in a country, and still rebuild quickly. The US is also just far more vulnerable to attack then Russia because of its highly urbanized population and utter lack of shelters.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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I had the impression that the US was rather less urbanized than Russia. I mean, there is low-density farming even in South Dakota et al, whereas Siberia is just a frozen damned wasteland as near as I can tell. Why do you say the US is more urban than Russia? By my count, about 20.6% of the (2002) Russian was in its fifteen largest cities, compared to about 12% for the United States (2000 data).
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Sea Skimmer wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote: 1,000 is more than enough. If 1,000 nuclear warheads hit the US right now there is no level of planning that would be able to actually have the country adjust and live on as it was in the aftermath. China as we know it today would cease to exist if 1,000 nukes hit them, same with Russia.
Except that nothing like 100% of the warheads fired will reach the target, let alone go boom when they do, especially since the US stockpile is in fact much older then the Russian bombs since we initially engineered them for longer lives. In addition this warhead cap counts all deployed nuclear warheads, which includes an awful lot of tactical weapons we need to keep around. Russia and China also have a rather vast number of deep bunkers we must hold at risk, and that eats up hundreds of warheads on its own. As Germany and Japan showed, you pretty well can blow away every city in a country, and still rebuild quickly. The US is also just far more vulnerable to attack then Russia because of its highly urbanized population and utter lack of shelters.
For starters neither the German nor Japanese scenario is anywhere close to applicable in that both had massive external investment along with outside forces which secured it against military threat independent of their own ability. In a scenario of massive exchange between the US and Russia (or US and China; Russia and China; or all 3) who is going to be the external party? In short there woudln't be, certainly not one that would place its troops in a position of securing them against attack by the group which launched the nukes. Moreover in a 3 way scenario there isn't an economy large enough out there to absorb the cost both militarily and economically. The EU is certianly the largest but aside from the mattter of how unweildy they would be in terms of trying to rebuild an attacked nation they are likely to be heavily hit economically by any of the three parties going down.

Also your assignment of weapons to the deep bunkers assumes they will (or must) be priority targets. With 1,000 warheads on each side it remains almost certain that total military anihlation of the opponent is no longer possible which means attacks owuld have to be made against softer targets such as economic and population centers that would undercut the ability to sustain a military follow on action against the launching power. In other words with 1,000 warheads there is no longer a scenraio under which a premptive or full out nuclear war is "winnable" in and of itself which woudl then involve a drastic shift in targeting priority. That also being the reaosn why I don't see why (if we were to impose a 1,000 warhead limit) we would retain the smaller tactical weapons. They don't offer any change in the overall scenario and return less bang for the buck in terms of quota.

The disconnect I think right now is that you are trying to fight the war we woudl fight now with the limitations such a treaty would impose rather than fighting the war we would fight after the treaty is imposed. There is no way the two will look the same which means the requirements for weapons and the plannign elements involved will change to reflect the new reality.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Here's why 1,000 warheads is insanity.

The average reliability of an ICBM is around 60%; with the present use of 3 devices per ICBM, you have about 1,500 warheads on our current 500 Minutemen.

That means that on average, of your 500 missiles, 200 will not work in some manner, resulting in 600 warheads not being delivered. That's cut your stockpile down to 900 devices. If we assume that reliability on them is 90%, that means that in total, only 810 will initate; about 54% of your actual stockpile.

Now, see, because we can't figure out WHICH missiles will fail; we have to at the least triple target important facilities with warheads from three separate missiles to be assured of their destruction. Since each missile carries three warheads, that makes our problem easy:

500 missiles divided by 3 = 166 designated ground zeroes that can be struck reliably.

And it gets better.

This is just taking into account the relative reliability of the missile; we still have to take into effect accuracy; some warheads will go long, others will go short; and since our warheads are very small these days; a near miss means the target survives. So you'll have to add in even more warheads to take into account for misses.

Overall, I'd say 1,500 warheads on 500 ICBMs can only strike about 80~ or less targets reliably in a war.

Now, if he was talking about 1,000 warheads carried on manned bombers, the calculus would change dramatically, since you can actually divert planes from that squadron in flight to strike targets that should have been hit by shot down bombers, or to restrike the target if the first bomb fizzles.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

MKSheppard wrote:Here's why 1,000 warheads is insanity.

The average reliability of an ICBM is around 60%; with the present use of 3 devices per ICBM, you have about 1,500 warheads on our current 500 Minutemen.
Is it that bad? You are saying that it's nearly a 50/50 chance that an ICBM would just fall apart in flight? Does that apply to your SLBMs?
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Is it that bad? You are saying that it's nearly a 50/50 chance that an ICBM would just fall apart in flight? Does that apply to your SLBMs?
SLBMs are about the same in reliability -- remember a lot of things have to go right for the missile to get into position to release it's warheads, and even then, warheads can hang up on the missile bus, etc.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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MKSheppard wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Is it that bad? You are saying that it's nearly a 50/50 chance that an ICBM would just fall apart in flight? Does that apply to your SLBMs?
SLBMs are about the same in reliability -- remember a lot of things have to go right for the missile to get into position to release it's warheads, and even then, warheads can hang up on the missile bus, etc.
So you are saying the test failure rate with the Russian Bulava are nearly typical for an ICBM? Wow.. Ok.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:So you are saying the test failure rate with the Russian Bulava are nearly typical for an ICBM? Wow.. Ok.
One of the best examples is Polaris.

A1s had a reliability of about 45%
A2s about 59%
A3s about 76%

Even more fun was that the warhead on Polaris A1 thru A2 had enormous reliability problems, it fizzled half the time it was test fired; meaning effectively the A1 had an effective reliability of 23%, and the A2 a reliability of 29%.

With the A3, Polaris got a reliable warhead at last. If we assume a 90% warhead reliability, A-3's total reliability is 68%. Of course, these are single-warhead missiles...so YMMV.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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The average reliability of an ICBM is around 60%
I can't believe the time-factored rate is being used to judge all missiles combined. But then, it's just me.
500 missiles divided by 3 = 166 designated ground zeroes that can be struck reliably.
Not too bad. There ain't even as many million-strong cities in Russia. Much less is the Russian climate going to allow any sort of large-scale survival outside of infrastructural center. Yes, we have shelters, and we did more planning for them to work than the USA ever did - but that's because we took the war seriously and our climate is harsh extremely.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

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Stas Bush wrote:Not too bad.
You forgot the fact that some warheads will go long or short; requiring MORE warheads to be added in to ensure target destruction of hardened targets. That reduces overall DGZs.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

Post by Count Chocula »

Not necessarily fall apart in flight; I think what Shep is saying is that some critical system on 40% of America's missiles might fail in flight. Remember that these are highly techical devices that were built, at great expense, then shoved down missile tubes or silos to wait in preparedness for the worst day ever. In some cases, the propellants themselves are corrosive. The missile bodies are thick enough to withstand the load of launch and reentry and some time in storage, and not an ounce stronger. The guidance packages are built of electronics that are, by now, at least 20 years behind what we have on our desktops. Sure, maintenance and system purges are done, but entropy has a way of making things that don't move fail. Look at the front yard of any trailer park for examples :). And these are OUR missiles, which receive tender loving care. I suspect that Russian ICBMs are even less reliable; perhaps only 40% of theirs would work as intended, due to harsher climate, inferior electronics, and slipshod maintenance.

Actually, now that I think about it, going to a 1,000 missile limit for each side could be a far WORSE situation than the one we now have. If each side has 1,000 missiles, each let's say with a 20 megaton warhead, and modern construction, stealth materials, more accurate guidance, etc., you could easily reach 90% effectiveness in a total launch. The ability to hit more targets, due to more accurate and larger warhead, new construction ICBMs, would be enhanced over the status quo.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Count Chocula wrote:I suspect that Russian ICBMs are even less reliable; perhaps only 40% of theirs would work as intended, due to harsher climate, inferior electronics, and slipshod maintenance.
Well, that's probably the main reason why the Russians have continually developed their ICBM technology, while the US has more or less brought it to a halt.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

Post by K. A. Pital »

Count Chocula wrote:I suspect that Russian ICBMs are even less reliable
Actually, regarding the missile - it might be more reliable. Not sure about the warhead, but I know that missiles were designed with reliability in mind, regardless of the toxicity of fuels and various other considerations.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

Post by MKSheppard »

Count Chocula wrote:The guidance packages are built of electronics that are, by now, at least 20 years behind what we have on our desktops.
Actually no; the present US ICBM fleet is a horrible mishmash of current blocks, it's always kept up to date. How do you ensure reliability on something you can't actually test on regular flights like with a bomber? You simply have airmen replace everything every so often to ensure reliability. Hence there's always a near continuous process of upgrades going on under preventive maintenance.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

Post by CmdrWilkens »

MKSheppard wrote:Now, if he was talking about 1,000 warheads carried on manned bombers, the calculus would change dramatically, since you can actually divert planes from that squadron in flight to strike targets that should have been hit by shot down bombers, or to restrike the target if the first bomb fizzles.

I wanted to touch on this because it gets tot eh last point I was making which is that the nuclear calculus completely changes if both sides are limited to 1,000 warheads. If either side maintains ICBMs or SLBMs as the principal deterrent method then we immediately hit the reliability issue you just mentioned which would mean redundant targeting (from BOTH sides) reducing the number of potential targets and reworking the calculus of what is worth striking in a war that goes nuclear. If folks switch to more reliable (but longer duration response) bombers and cruise missiles then we would see a proliferation of IADS.

In other words we have a semi-static situation now with certain realities imposed by the number of warheads each sides maintains. That reality will have to change once both sides deplete their inventory to that point. Personally since I'm pretty definately squashed either way (you live in the 7th largest metropolis within a dozen miles of NSA its kinda obvious you are on the target list) I'm happy with the idea that even in the event of a full blown exchange there is a better chance that both sides will have a significant chunk of the populace still alive.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: So you are saying the test failure rate with the Russian Bulava are nearly typical for an ICBM? Wow.. Ok.
Test missiles normally work much better, because they are hand built and subject to extensive testing before firing. It’s a very bad sign if a missile is failing under those conditions. However once you’ve mass produced a production missile, and you have it sit in a silo or worse on a sub (lots more vibrations ect…) for five, ten fifteen, or at this point more then twenty years for many US and Russian weapons and its not going to be super reliable. Few weapons are, and ICBMs are highly complex to say the least.

Recently the US has been having to spend a huge amount of money to rebuild our absurdly old Minuteman missiles, even repouring the whole rocket motors to make them more reliable. But you can only expect so much out of crap that’s so old. Meanwhile, the reliability of all our old nuclear warheads is just worrying, at best. Some Minuteman missiles are now being rearmed with the newer warheads and RVs from scrapped Peacekeeper missiles… but new is relative, the things are still from the 1980s.
CmdrWilkens wrote:
I wanted to touch on this because it gets tot eh last point I was making which is that the nuclear calculus completely changes if both sides are limited to 1,000 warheads. If either side maintains ICBMs or SLBMs as the principal deterrent method then we immediately hit the reliability issue you just mentioned which would mean redundant targeting (from BOTH sides) reducing the number of potential targets and reworking the calculus of what is worth striking in a war that goes nuclear.
Some things simply need to die no matter what, like say, ICBM silos. If we get down to only being able to strike a few hundred targets at best, then we literally cannot wipe out even ICBM silos of obsolete protection standards. That means we could fight a nuclear war and then be stuck with the other side still having been able to hold back a large nuclear arsenal, which is a downright dangerous situation that would imperil anyone’s chances of rebuilding since more nukes might rain down say a year later, after the centers of recovery are discovered.
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Re: Henry Kissinger woos Russia for Barack Obama (nukes)

Post by Crayz9000 »

So, basically, the only realistic way we can live on a 1,000 nuclear warhead cap is to go back to manned, high-speed bombers. I wouldn't complain about that, but I doubt Washington would see it the same way.

Then again, if someone could demonstrate cost savings of a bomber fleet vs. the ICBM fleet over time...
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