Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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After reading the article, do you support the stimulus?

Poll ended at 2011-11-06 02:46am

I supported the original stimulus, but not what it's become
5
11%
I still support the stimulus, we can't just sit on our hands
18
40%
I never supported the stimulus, but would support one that never had any tax cuts and was just New-Deal style spending
18
40%
I any oppose any stimulus of any kind
4
9%
 
Total votes: 45

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Dominus Atheos
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Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by Dominus Atheos »

These first 4 are from Paul Krugman
The Destructive Center

What do you call someone who eliminates hundreds of thousands of American jobs, deprives millions of adequate health care and nutrition, undermines schools, but offers a $15,000 bonus to affluent people who flip their houses?

A proud centrist. For that is what the senators who ended up calling the tune on the stimulus bill just accomplished.

Even if the original Obama plan — around $800 billion in stimulus, with a substantial fraction of that total given over to ineffective tax cuts — had been enacted, it wouldn’t have been enough to fill the looming hole in the U.S. economy, which the Congressional Budget Office estimates will amount to $2.9 trillion over the next three years.

Yet the centrists did their best to make the plan weaker and worse.

One of the best features of the original plan was aid to cash-strapped state governments, which would have provided a quick boost to the economy while preserving essential services. But the centrists insisted on a $40 billion cut in that spending.

The original plan also included badly needed spending on school construction; $16 billion of that spending was cut. It included aid to the unemployed, especially help in maintaining health care — cut. Food stamps — cut. All in all, more than $80 billion was cut from the plan, with the great bulk of those cuts falling on precisely the measures that would do the most to reduce the depth and pain of this slump.

On the other hand, the centrists were apparently just fine with one of the worst provisions in the Senate bill, a tax credit for home buyers. Dean Baker of the Center for Economic Policy Research calls this the “flip your house to your brother” provision: it will cost a lot of money while doing nothing to help the economy.

All in all, the centrists’ insistence on comforting the comfortable while afflicting the afflicted will, if reflected in the final bill, lead to substantially lower employment and substantially more suffering.

But how did this happen? I blame President Obama’s belief that he can transcend the partisan divide — a belief that warped his economic strategy.

After all, many people expected Mr. Obama to come out with a really strong stimulus plan, reflecting both the economy’s dire straits and his own electoral mandate.

Instead, however, he offered a plan that was clearly both too small and too heavily reliant on tax cuts. Why? Because he wanted the plan to have broad bipartisan support, and believed that it would. Not long ago administration strategists were talking about getting 80 or more votes in the Senate.

Mr. Obama’s postpartisan yearnings may also explain why he didn’t do something crucially important: speak forcefully about how government spending can help support the economy. Instead, he let conservatives define the debate, waiting until late last week before finally saying what needed to be said — that increasing spending is the whole point of the plan.

And Mr. Obama got nothing in return for his bipartisan outreach. Not one Republican voted for the House version of the stimulus plan, which was, by the way, better focused than the original administration proposal.

In the Senate, Republicans inveighed against “pork” — although the wasteful spending they claimed to have identified (much of it was fully justified) was a trivial share of the bill’s total. And they decried the bill’s cost — even as 36 out of 41 Republican senators voted to replace the Obama plan with $3 trillion, that’s right, $3 trillion in tax cuts over 10 years.

So Mr. Obama was reduced to bargaining for the votes of those centrists. And the centrists, predictably, extracted a pound of flesh — not, as far as anyone can tell, based on any coherent economic argument, but simply to demonstrate their centrist mojo. They probably would have demanded that $100 billion or so be cut from anything Mr. Obama proposed; by coming in with such a low initial bid, the president guaranteed that the final deal would be much too small.

Such are the perils of negotiating with yourself.

Now, House and Senate negotiators have to reconcile their versions of the stimulus, and it’s possible that the final bill will undo the centrists’ worst. And Mr. Obama may be able to come back for a second round. But this was his best chance to get decisive action, and it fell short.

So has Mr. Obama learned from this experience? Early indications aren’t good.

For rather than acknowledge the failure of his political strategy and the damage to his economic strategy, the president tried to put a postpartisan happy face on the whole thing. “Democrats and Republicans came together in the Senate and responded appropriately to the urgency this moment demands,” he declared on Saturday, and “the scale and scope of this plan is right.”

No, they didn’t, and no, it isn’t.
Atrios is right, though I’d put it a bit differently: centrism is a pose rather than a philosophy. And to support that pose, the centrists are demanding $100 billion in cuts in the economic stimulus plan — not because they have any coherent argument saying that the plan is $100 billion too big, not because they can identify $100 billion of stuff that should not be done, but in order to be able to say that they forced Obama to move to the center.

Which raises the obvious question: shouldn’t Obama have made a much bigger plan, say $1.3 trillion, his opening gambit? If he had, he could have conceded to the centrists by cutting it to $1.2 trillion, and still have had a plan with a good chance of really controlling this slump. Instead he made preemptive concessions, only to find the centrists demanding another pound of flesh as proof of their centrist power.
I’m still working on the numbers, but I’ve gotten a fair number of requests for comment on the Senate version of the stimulus.

The short answer: to appease the centrists, a plan that was already too small and too focused on ineffective tax cuts has been made significantly smaller, and even more focused on tax cuts.

According to the CBO’s estimates, we’re facing an output shortfall of almost 14% of GDP over the next two years, or around $2 trillion. Others, such as Goldman Sachs, are even more pessimistic. So the original $800 billion plan was too small, especially because a substantial share consisted of tax cuts that probably would have added little to demand. The plan should have been at least 50% larger.

Now the centrists have shaved off $86 billion in spending — much of it among the most effective and most needed parts of the plan. In particular, aid to state governments, which are in desperate straits, is both fast — because it prevents spending cuts rather than having to start up new projects — and effective, because it would in fact be spent; plus state and local governments are cutting back on essentials, so the social value of this spending would be high. But in the name of mighty centrism, $40 billion of that aid has been cut out.

My first cut says that the changes to the Senate bill will ensure that we have at least 600,000 fewer Americans employed over the next two years.

The real question now is whether Obama will be able to come back for more once it’s clear that the plan is way inadequate. My guess is no. This is really, really bad.
What strikes me, listening to what the centrists have to say for themselves, is just how disconnected they seem from the actual economic debate. They seem shocked, shocked that anyone considers cutting — I mean. adjusting downward — precisely the most effective parts of the stimulus plan a bad idea.

My guess is that they were living in a world defined purely by political theater, where being centrist is always a virtue — and that centrism is defined by doing something neither party likes. So cutting adjusting downward government spending must be a virtuous thing, precisely because it gets progressive Democrats upset; cutting the useless tax cuts that now make up a large part of the bill wouldn’t be as virtuous, because it would get conservatives more upset than progressives.

The economics of the thing — the near-unanimous view of economists who think stimulus makes any sense at all that spending offers a bigger bang for the buck than tax cuts — doesn’t seem to have penetrated their thinking at all.
Daily Kos
Haley Edwards at the Columbia Journalism Review points out a big part of why the Senate version of stimulus bill was more expensive than the House version and so "needed" to be cut back by scrapping projects to build schools and so on. The House version didn't include the standard annual modification of the Alternative Minimum Tax, and the Senate version does.
But why, you might ask, is the Senate package so much more expensive than the House bill?

It’s got much to do with a single $64 billion tax cut benefitting the wealthiest 20 percent of Americans—a fact that was largely buried in reporting about the squabbling over which spending programs to cut.
Haley adds, "that’s one of the reasons why the House’s stimulus measure seemed to be $80 billion dollars cheaper than the Senate’s. It was really only about $30 billion cheaper—after you subtract the $64 billion revenue loss that happens every year when lawmakers curtail the scope of the AMT."

This raises an interesting question. Why is the usual AMT alteration being shoved through by the Senate as part of the stimulus package? Back on January 28 the Wall Street Journal noted:
The Obama administration indicated it would agree to a $69 billion Senate proposal to shield tens of millions of middle-income Americans from the so-called alternative minimum tax, a priority of Iowa Sen. Charles Grassley, the top-ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee. The panel later folded the change into the Senate bill.
Although it is standard in the tradmed to say that the AMT benefits "millions of middle-income Americans," it is to put it mildly stretching things to put it that way. Haley points to a study at the Tax Policy Institute which shows that slashing the AMT increases the incomes of Americans in the top quintile by 1.3%, Americans in the next-highest quintile by .7%, the middle quintile by .1%, and does nothing at all for Americans in the bottom 40% of incomes.

To put that another way, Americans in the middle 20% of incomes will get on average a whopping $52 because of Senator Grassley's demand, those in the second-highest 1/5th will get $502, while Americans in the top 1/5th of incomes will get an average $2,593 -- and that last one includes those in the top 5%, who will get an average of $4,511. This is what the WSJ calls "shielding millions of middle-income Americans from the so-called alternative minimum tax."

And that is why school building projects have to be scrapped.
Here's a chart of the CBO's projections for multipliers on the various types of spending:

Image

Most of us on this site are in our twenties, or younger. This stimulus is going to be paid for with a loan that our generation is going to have to pay back. I personally don't have a problem with that if it can definitely get us out of this depression recession with one quick powerful strike, like the Gordian Knot. But the more I read about it, and follow it in the news, the more I wonder: Is it really going to help? And even if it does, how much are we going to get out of it compared to what we'll have to pay back? It seems like every day more shit gets added and more good stuff gets cut. More tax cuts get added, while schools, state aid, infrastructure and health care get removed. I'm really starting to be concerned about how much this is actually going to help, and how much is just going to mortgage my future for no gain.

So what does SDN think of this?
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by ray245 »

To me, this stimulus package seems to be the lesser evil as compared to letting everyone else falls into a worst depression.

Without the passing of any stimulus package, the crisis is only to get worse, not better. Yup, this is another damn if you do, damn if you don't kind of scenario.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

If only Obama would take away from this the message that being "bipartisan" in the eyes of the modern GOP means taking it up the ass, plain and simple.

Bipartisan cooperation is a fine ideal, but its meaningless when your opponent will hypocritically block everything you do to score political points, or fanatically cling to their ideology.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by MKSheppard »

Most of us on this site are in our twenties, or younger. This stimulus is going to be paid for with a loan that our generation is going to have to pay back.
Hmm...

Weren't people organ grinding not so long ago, about how unfair it was that the baby boomers essentially partied and trashed the place and left it for successive generations to clean up?
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by ray245 »

The Romulan Republic wrote:If only Obama would take away from this the message that being "bipartisan" in the eyes of the modern GOP means taking it up the ass, plain and simple.

Bipartisan cooperation is a fine ideal, but its meaningless when your opponent will hypocritically block everything you do to score political points, or fanatically cling to their ideology.
Or we can look at it from another angle. The infrastructure re-building is a bipartisan policies to begin with, one that will benefit everyone regardless of them being conservative or liberal.

Obama can simply states that my policies are bipartisan to began with, its the Republicans that are not being bipartisan. A lot of people seems to think that being bipartisan means pandering towards the GOP, when in actual fact, it works another way round.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by SirNitram »

Hadn't seen that CBO numbers for multiplicative effect. I had used Moody's. Lemme copy-paste..
Tax cuts for working families: $247bn

Payroll Tax Holiday. 1.29
318B

Job-creating investments in infrastructure and science: $165bn

Lacking numbers on Science investments, but assuming rough parity with Infrastructure from previous investigation into job creation: 1.59
262B

Job-creating investments in health: $153bn

PROBABLY Medicaid aid to states. 1.39
212B

Job-creating investments in education and training: $138bn

Long term; unknown effect on stimulus.

Job-creating investments for an energy independent America: $82bn

Energy is largely infrastructure, so for want of better measures, we use that. 1.59
130B

Job-creating investments tax cuts for small businesses: $21bn

Wish I knew the technicals here. It could be as sucky as a cut in the corporate rate(.30) to as decent as Refundable Lump Rebate(1.26).
6.3B to 26B

Helping Americans hit hard by the economic crisis: $72bn
Unemployment and Food Stamps. Assume half-half breakdown. 36B 1.73, 36B 1.63
62B + 58B = 120B.

1.042T.. Job Creating Tax Cuts push to either 1.048T or 1.068T Stimulative effect. Note: This is an estimate on guesses. It does not include the education/training section for want of data. But if we view this as the best-case, it could still be good.
Of course, this assumes that the conference bill, which the President has said he will be taking a direct hand in, is identical to the Senate bill. I'm somehow doubting it. It also assumes all educational spending is simply vanishing into a black hole, an assumption with no evidence.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by KrauserKrauser »

I'm all for a stimulus, especially one that is well thought out and will address the actual root of the problem. This stimulus does none of that and therefore I do not support it. This has been rushed through the system and is too large of a bill for anyone to really understand everything involved in it, which allows for more and more opportunities for waste and bullshit spending. From the post on the board, I believe the consensus is that the TARP program was rushed through the system and ended up doing jack and shit. This bill is being crammed down our throats at the same speed as the TARP and while it has some targeted funds, it's $800 billion and I expect it to do as much benefit as the wonderful TARP funds that got out there.

I would love to see the bill being broken in half according to short term versus long term planning and stimulus, but that would make sense and be a reasonable and logical approach, so obviously that's out.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by ray245 »

KrauserKrauser wrote:I'm all for a stimulus, especially one that is well thought out and will address the actual root of the problem. This stimulus does none of that and therefore I do not support it. This has been rushed through the system and is too large of a bill for anyone to really understand everything involved in it, which allows for more and more opportunities for waste and bullshit spending. From the post on the board, I believe the consensus is that the TARP program was rushed through the system and ended up doing jack and shit. This bill is being crammed down our throats at the same speed as the TARP and while it has some targeted funds, it's $800 billion and I expect it to do as much benefit as the wonderful TARP funds that got out there.

I would love to see the bill being broken in half according to short term versus long term planning and stimulus, but that would make sense and be a reasonable and logical approach, so obviously that's out.
You are supposed to spend on a large scale in a stimulus plan. The difference between a stimulus and regular spending in a growing economy is, in a stimulus, you are spending things in a large manner to revive the economy.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Ray, I don't think you understand. Normally 100 billion is large scale. Sadly, the TARP program has blown all manner of thinking of what is appropriate in large scale spending as Paulson, Bush and Congress just wasted money willy nilly because Chicken Little got all in a tizzy. 800 billion isn't large scale, it's huge-fucking-normously-amazingly-collossally-large scale. It's so fucking big that I would rather they just pass mutliple bills so each can get the due diligence that this amount of money deserves.

The world was collapsing if we didn't get TARP passed super-duper fast, should I now believe the same people when they say the world will collapse if we don't shove the same amount of money out super-duper-super fast?

You can spend in a large manner without it all being in one bill that is too big to be properly analyzed, there's no rule against it.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by SirNitram »

I don't find that argument terribly compelling, given it's 60% of the size of the 2001 stimulus.

Which somehow no one else remembers. Here's a hint: 100% tax cuts.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Do you have a source for that? The best I can find is $300 billion for the 2001 stimulus, which would make this stimulus almost 3X that amount.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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KrauserKrauser wrote:Do you have a source for that? The best I can find is $300 billion for the 2001 stimulus, which would make this stimulus almost 3X that amount.
Ensign: “Well, I don’t know that we’re going to get to the — you know, the total $1.3 trillion tax cut. I do think the tax cuts are necessary right now.” [CNN, 1/3/2001]
Even the extremely Right Wing Cato institute pegs the cost there.
The U.S. Senate yesterday passed a $1.35 trillion tax cut as Republican leaders rushed to land President Bush's top priority on his desk before an impending power shift in the Senate, according to Reuters.
Link

How loyal is the Cato Institute to the GOP? They wrote up a peice insisting the healthcare reform Obama wants be killed, because if it worked and people's lives improved, Republicans wouldn't be in the majority for a while.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Well, then I guess my only retort would be that it is easier to administer 1.35 trillion in tax cuts than $800 billion in targeted spending. Not that it is really that great of an argument, but simply not collecting taxes should be easier than spending governement money and properly appropriating it to useful endeavors.

I know you can equate tax cuts = spending due to the impact on the budget at the end of the day, but there is a difference.

What is the largest spending bill of this type pre-TARP?
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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KrauserKrauser wrote:Well, then I guess my only retort would be that it is easier to administer 1.35 trillion in tax cuts than $800 billion in targeted spending. Not that it is really that great of an argument, but simply not collecting taxes should be easier than spending governement money and properly appropriating it to useful endeavors.

I know you can equate tax cuts = spending due to the impact on the budget at the end of the day, but there is a difference.

What is the largest spending bill of this type pre-TARP?
A better way to look into this will be looking at the 'stimulus' package of Roosevelt, aka the New deal, and ask how much money did Roosevelt spend, and what is the impact of such a package.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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Link

According to this 500 billion adjusted for inflation. So this bill is almost double that.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by SirNitram »

KrauserKrauser wrote:Well, then I guess my only retort would be that it is easier to administer 1.35 trillion in tax cuts than $800 billion in targeted spending. Not that it is really that great of an argument, but simply not collecting taxes should be easier than spending governement money and properly appropriating it to useful endeavors.
This is true. However, the difference in usefulness is stark enough to cause note. Moody's table of GDP impact of cuts/spending

Simply increasing food stamps is worth several times the cost in Bush's favorite cuts. And there's not exactly alot of ways to screw up food stamp funding increases, though I'm sure those working hard to make this fail will try.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Well, I'll agree that trying something new beyond the past tax cuts is something that can and should be looked into, I've grown that much at least.

I also agree that the food stamps is a good idea, along with increased unemployment spending as there is going to more and more in the coming months / years. That's just good money spent.

What I question is the haste and complete lack of analysis that is being used to get this bill passed. If we are dealing an amount of money almost double the size of the New Deal, do we seriously need to get it passed without giving it a good once, twice and thrice over?
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

Post by ray245 »

KrauserKrauser wrote:Link

According to this 500 billion adjusted for inflation. So this bill is almost double that.
Would you be acceptable to a stimulus bill of 1 trillion if the Impact is twice as large?

Also, we need to ask how much wise spending do we need to get us through this recession? If we really need 1 trillion, then the US government should spend 1 trillion dollars.
What I question is the haste and complete lack of analysis that is being used to get this bill passed. If we are dealing an amount of money almost double the size of the New Deal, do we seriously need to get it passed without giving it a good once, twice and thrice over?
If only such actions does not result in more tax cuts. It seems that the more times you Americans look into this proposal, more tax cuts is added and more reasonable spending is cut. At this rate, I will not be surprised if the most of the money in this stimulus is tax cuts, due to people trying to appease the GOP in the Senate.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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KrauserKrauser wrote:Well, I'll agree that trying something new beyond the past tax cuts is something that can and should be looked into, I've grown that much at least.

I also agree that the food stamps is a good idea, along with increased unemployment spending as there is going to more and more in the coming months / years. That's just good money spent.

What I question is the haste and complete lack of analysis that is being used to get this bill passed. If we are dealing an amount of money almost double the size of the New Deal, do we seriously need to get it passed without giving it a good once, twice and thrice over?
What is this strange presumption that there has been no analysis, study, comparison to existing numbers, or debate? I will never understand it's origins. It's been the big topic for weeks. I can do a rundown of it's likely outcomes in a few minutes. It's generated tons of debate in Congress. I know this is a talking point put out there by the stimulus' opponents, but I don't grasp how one can logically make it.

Indeed, if this much thought was applied to the other 95.4% of the various moves to keep the economy afloat, we'd get a better 9.7 Trillion. But attacking this tiny bit of stimulus spending because it's not taking five months? It's not like Coburn's suggestions would lead to smart actions.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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ray245 wrote:Would you be acceptable to a stimulus bill of 1 trillion if the Impact is twice as large?

Also, we need to ask how much wise spending do we need to get us through this recession? If we really need 1 trillion, then the US government should spend 1 trillion dollars.
Well, I'm more of let the chips fall as they may approach for most of this stuff, but yeah, if the impact was twice as much meaning 2 Hoover Dams, 2 Tenessee Valley Authorities, all of the mega infrastructure programs that ended up having observable tangible benefit, I would support a larger stimulus plan. I'm not against spending money on infrastructure, I'm against rushing into spending hundreds of billions of dollars when the longer term projects would benefit greatly from additional planning and allocation of funds.

Most of this infrastructure funding is X hundreds of billions for X project and not a more detailed, we are going to build X solar plants, Y nuke plants, Z coal plants approach. Now its true most of my info is from summaries so of course there will be a summary of figures, but with fora billion a page, you would think they would be willing to provide a detailed breakdown of spending for this bill.
If only such actions does not result in more tax cuts. It seems that the more times you Americans look into this proposal, more tax cuts is added and more reasonable spending is cut. At this rate, I will not be surprised if the most of the money in this stimulus is tax cuts, due to people trying to appease the GOP in the Senate.
Why not cut some taxes? We are currently have some the highest corporate tax rates in teh world. Reducing that, without reducing the taxes on income will increase the likelihood of investment and job creation in this country, which will take a longer time to see gains but will have a net positive impact on job creation.

Save your fear mongering for another forum, the bill is by no means majority tax cuts. Please provide analysis and facts to back that up before you throw that bullshit out there.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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SirNitram wrote:What is this strange presumption that there has been no analysis, study, comparison to existing numbers, or debate? I will never understand it's origins. It's been the big topic for weeks. I can do a rundown of it's likely outcomes in a few minutes. It's generated tons of debate in Congress. I know this is a talking point put out there by the stimulus' opponents, but I don't grasp how one can logically make it.

Indeed, if this much thought was applied to the other 95.4% of the various moves to keep the economy afloat, we'd get a better 9.7 Trillion. But attacking this tiny bit of stimulus spending because it's not taking five months? It's not like Coburn's suggestions would lead to smart actions.
Where did I say I approve of the TARP funds and the complete lack of transparency of the Fed's actions. I would love to see Obama take on the Fed as it and Paulson were responsible for this massive backroom circle jerk that pissed away $10 TRILLION without any information on who is getting what. The TARP is greatest reason I am advocating increased scrutiny on this spending bill as the current Congress created that wonderful turd of a bill and now expect me to believe they can properly dole out the same amount of money. Why should I trust them with any more huge sums of money now that they have a history of handling such large sums of money inappropriately?
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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GDP effectiveness of cuts to Corporate Tax Rate, as per Moody's Invester Services: 30 cents for every dollar deducted from the federal budget.

I'd say that's a very solid good reason not to.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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KrauserKrauser wrote:Where did I say I approve of the TARP funds and the complete lack of transparency of the Fed's actions.
I'm afraid you'll have to quote, you know, anything I said pegging you as supporting the TARP. I am adding a dose of perspective. Otherwise, put down the strawman argument and back away slowly.
I would love to see Obama take on the Fed as it and Paulson were responsible for this massive backroom circle jerk that pissed away $10 TRILLION without any information on who is getting what. The TARP is greatest reason I am advocating increased scrutiny on this spending bill as the current Congress created that wonderful turd of a bill and now expect me to believe they can properly dole out the same amount of money. Why should I trust them with any more huge sums of money now that they have a history of handling such large sums of money inappropriately?
Different group of people organizing it would be a solid reason. Unless we're going to simply generalize about all politicians. Particularly since the Stimulus has text to apply requirements on groups that already took TARP money. The 2007-2008 Congress is not, in fact, the 2009-2010 Congress.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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Looking through that site, I see that it is a 1 year window of impact. I would think that any decrease in the Corporate tax rate would take much longer than 1 year to take effect, do you have any data for a window longer than 1 year as many of the stimulus programs won't have much impact until 2010, so why should this be required to be any different.
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Re: Is the Stimulus package even worth it anymore?

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SirNitram wrote:I'm afraid you'll have to quote, you know, anything I said pegging you as supporting the TARP. I am adding a dose of perspective. Otherwise, put down the strawman argument and back away slowly.
It was just in response to the idea that there has been more thought put into this than the TARP program, as I am summarizing from your previous post. TARP was a massive clusterfuck and this bill has hardly had much more time to run around Congress than TARP did. At least TARP was successfully defeated and had to make another round, and even then, we know how great that ended up working for all of us.
Different group of people organizing it would be a solid reason. Unless we're going to simply generalize about all politicians. Particularly since the Stimulus has text to apply requirements on groups that already took TARP money. The 2007-2008 Congress is not, in fact, the 2009-2010 Congress.
Last time I checked the same people are still in charge of the Senate and the House. Could have sworn that was the case. Sure the Dems in the Senate are closer to a philibuster proof majority, but it simply means they need to make less concessions to get their version through. The same people and party that came up with that wonderful TARP bill are the architects of this current Stimulus bill. They are also the same people that are claiming the world will OMGCOLLAPSE if it doesn't get passed THIS FUCKING INSTANT!!!

So the new stimulus bill has retroactive elements to the bill they previously fucked up? Super great, I guess they get a pass for their initial fuck up then. Does it remove the cluase that says the Treasury Secretary has full and total control over how the TARP funds are spent so that we can finally get some visibility on the last few hundred billion before it disappears down the drain?
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