Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

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Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Honestly I'm not sure if this should go into OT or N&P but I am thinking a thread that we can use to list the ways we can benefit from this current Stimulus package, love it or hate, would be greatly useful as there are significant sums of money that can be claimed.

Money for you too!
How stimulus can help your wallet

Congress appears close to finalizing the economic recovery plan. Here's a look at some of the likely provisions for individuals.

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NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Key lawmakers in the Senate and House said Wednesday they had reached a compromise on a final economic recovery package.

The exact language of the compromise bill is still being drafted, and many measures are expected to be amended. But the final Senate version, which was approved Tuesday, provides a framework for a final bill.

Using that Senate version of the bill as a guide, here's a look at what the financial rescue package might mean for you. Keep in mind, lawmakers involved in the negotiations said some tax breaks directly affecting individuals have been scaled back.

As final details become available, CNNMoney.com will update this list.

Make Work Pay Credit: The bill provides a $500 credit per worker and a $1,000 credit per dual-earner couple. The full credit would be paid to people making $70,000 or less ($140,000 per dual-earner couple). It would also be refundable, which means that even very low-income families who don't make enough to owe income tax would be able to claim it. Estimated cost: $139.4 billion.

One-time payments to those who don't work: For seniors who don't work, as well as disabled veterans and retired railroad workers, the bill provides a one-time $300 payment. Estimated cost: $17 billion.

Break for higher income families: The bill includes a one-year provision to protect middle- and upper-middle-income families from having to pay the Alternative Minimum Tax. The AMT was intended primarily for high-income taxpayers but has in recent years threatened to engulf those lower down the income scale. Estimated cost: $70 billion.

Temporary deduction for car buyers: The bill would let those who buy a car in 2009 deduct the interest they pay on their car loan as well as the sales tax charged in the purchase. The full deduction would be available to those earning less than $125,000 ($250,000 for joint filers). Estimated cost: $11 billion.

Temporary credit for home buyers: The bill doubles the size of an existing temporary home buyer credit to $15,000. It also would allow all home buyers to claim it. And it removes the requirement under current law that the credit be paid back. Estimated cost: $39 billion.

New college credit: The bill introduces the American Opportunity Tax Credit, a $2,500 credit for higher education expenses. The full credit would be available to those making less than $80,000 ($160,000 for joint filers). Estimated cost: $10.3 billion.

Pell Grants: The bill increases the maximum Pell Grant by $281 in the 2009-10 academic year and by $400 in the 2010-11 academic year. Estimated cost: $14 billion.

Child tax credit: The bill increases eligibility for the child tax credit by lowering the income threshold that must be met to $8,100. That will allow lower income families to claim more of the credit. Estimated cost: $7.2 billion.

Earned income tax credit: The credit will be temporarily increased from 40% to 45% of qualifying earnings for low-income families with three or more children. It also includes a marriage penalty relief provision for couples who qualify for at least a portion of the credit. Estimated cost: $4.6 billion.

Direct lifeline benefits
Health insurance help for the jobless: The bill includes provisions to help eligible jobless workers pay for health insurance under Cobra. Cobra coverage allows newly laid off workers to keep health insurance provided by their former employers for a period of time.

One of the provisions offers a government subsidy -- 50% of premiums for 12 months -- to help out-of-work Americans pay for healthcare. Estimated cost: $20 billion.

Another provides states funding to help pay for expanded Medicaid rolls for workers who've lost their jobs and can't afford health care on their own or can't get Cobra coverage because their former employer doesn't offer a health care plan. Estimated cost: $87 billion.

Unemployment benefits: The bill provides jobless workers with an additional 20 weeks in unemployment benefits, and 13 weeks on top of that if they live in what's deemed a high unemployment state, of which there are about 30 currently. Estimated cost: $27 billion.

In addition, the weekly unemployment benefit will temporarily increase by $25 on top of the roughly $300 jobless workers currently receive. Estimated cost: $8.8 billion

Plus, the first $2,400 of benefits in 2009 would be exempt from federal income taxes. Estimated cost: $4.7 billion.

Also included in the bill is an incentive for states to provide unemployment insurance coverage for part-time workers and for workers who quit their jobs for compelling family reasons. Estimated cost: up to $2.6 billion.

Food stamp payments: The bill includes a provision would increase food stamp payments by 12%, so a family of four would see an additional $71 on top of the $588 per month they receive currently. Estimated cost: $16.5 billion.

Help for needy families: The bill provides $2.3 billion to states to create a contingency fund through 2010 for the welfare program called Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, which provides cash assistance to the needy. Estimated cost: $2.3 billion
Well, personally, I don't like the bill, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try to get as much benefit out of it as possible as I'll be helping to pay of the borrowed money in the future anyway.

As my GF and I are buying a house in 2009 we should qualify for the full $15000 rebate and will both be getting the $4-500 refund. Not much else we qualify for or can use, but I'm sure there will be others on the board that can benefit from these programs.

Please post any additional details as they are revealed from the final bill in this thread.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Sea Skimmer »

I am generally of the opinion of fuck driving the nation deeper into debt just to give a tax refund to people who didn’t pay taxes in the first place.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Kanastrous »

*shrug* this bill doesn't do much of anything for us personally, but we'll likely be taking advantage of the $15,000 new-home-purchase rebate.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Mr Bean »

The home buyer rebate is the exact wrong thing to put into the bill. As is the 500$ money giveaway. I can see arguments for the Alternative Minimum tax workaround or the college aid but not those two. That's 170 billion pissed away to little effect and I toss plus three child tax credit.

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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Coyote »

I think what the country needs most right now is a Guillotine, but that's just me. And I'm only being somewhat sarcastic. I'm genuinely surprised that there hasn't yet been more threats made against CEOs and fat-cat types (AFAIK there's only been a few 'white powder mailings' that were hoaxes). I suppose everyone is still basking in the rays of confidence that Obama will 'fix' the situation, but as it sinks in that this is going to be a long-term thing, will people who are suffering contain themselves within the bounds of civility?

I'm not saying it should happen, only that it could, and I wonder how civic unrest in general would change the dynamics. A food riot or a house foreclosure standoff... I have a feeling it'll come to that. :|
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Count Chocula »

Yay...$500 for me! At a cost of only $650 once the Fed debt for my hamburger today gets paid on Tuesday.

Bah. I can't wait to see what these con artists come up with for a FY2010 budget. Any takers at $4 trillion?
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

So the CEOs and fat-cat-types and not say, the Federal Reserve, Congress or any legislative bodies? There is more than enough blame to go around. Hell, why not single out Greenspan, Paulson or even Bush if you are going to throw around such threatening and obviously poorly thought out ideas. Surely the policy makers are more responsible for putting in bad policy than the people taking advantage of bad policy.

If this stimulus bill proves anything its that either Obama doesn't have the balls to stand up to Pelosi and Reid to get a bill that will actually address the problems of the country, or he is simply another in a long line of politicians that are satisfied with the status-quo and at no point is willing to tackle the real problems that face the nation.

One thing that would have been interesting in this bill is an increase in unemployment spending / food stamps to accomodate a slow down on the order of the Great Depression levels of unemployment. If that is what everyone keeps comparing this current crisis to, why not get ahead of the curve and throw the net out before the problem arrives. But that would be forward thinking and the order of the day is short-sighted immediate gratification thinking. Doh.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Kanastrous wrote:*shrug* this bill doesn't do much of anything for us personally, but we'll likely be taking advantage of the $15,000 new-home-purchase rebate.
Home purchase rebate? Isn't a big fraction of the whole mess we're in a result of toxic mortgage debt? And the government wants to create even more mortgage debt? Debt that will become toxic when the economy goes tits-up and the banks start trying to eat our brains? If this isn't the stupidest thing I've heard of the whole week, it comes pretty damned close.

Hell, reading the OP article suggests that the government's idea of 'stimulus' is to get people into more debt! Home-buyer's credit? New car buyer's credit? Fuck that shit. Tax rebates to people who don't pay taxes? Fuck that shit. More tax rebates after it was proven by the last half-assed 'stimulus' package that these rebates immediately go into servicing debt (be it the consumer's credit-card debt, or the bank's debts when the consumer sticks it into his savings account,) instead of promoting economic flow? Fuck that shit.

Now, if you will excuse me, I need to use my economic 'stimulus' windfall to buy some bourbon to take the edge off my anger. And to stock up on ammo for that upcoming fight over the last can of soup.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

I can see the rationale behind the new homebuyer tax credit. The housing market is currently down with home prices significantly lower which is causing more foreclosures due to amount owed > value of home. With a significant enough boost from homebuyers that are given sane loans that they can afford, there would be at least a temporary uptick in the housing market that may slow foreclosures in the near term.

Whether or not that is sane monetary or economic policy depends on the availability of houses, which is high, and the willingness of buyers to buy, which will be high if you give them a free $15k. What's interesting to think about is that alot of people are going to see "Ooohh free money" and want to sell their house and get a different one to qualify for this credit, which then increase the glut of housing currently in the market and basically achieve nothing. I'm sure that scenario was thought out before hand. Definitely. Like totally.

Sadly, the value of homes that were bought a few years ago have taken a significant hit and as such alot fo people are locked into their current houses even if $15k is waiting for them if they buy. This will also be a one time injection of cash into the housing market and once it's done, the same problems that exist now will still exist in the future. People went to fucking town on house farms and building suburbs everywhere and housing inventory is through the roof. I'm betting that Congress projected this money to be useful in getting the builders building again, which won't happen until the excess stock of houses are taken off the market, not realizing that the boom times are over for them but then I'm sure the lobbyists have convinced them otherwise.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Kanastrous »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:*shrug* this bill doesn't do much of anything for us personally, but we'll likely be taking advantage of the $15,000 new-home-purchase rebate.
Home purchase rebate? Isn't a big fraction of the whole mess we're in a result of toxic mortgage debt? And the government wants to create even more mortgage debt? Debt that will become toxic when the economy goes tits-up and the banks start trying to eat our brains? If this isn't the stupidest thing I've heard of the whole week, it comes pretty damned close.
I wouldn't be purchasing another home, with or without a tax credit, without the financial basis to service the loan. The tax rebate is simply an incentive to possibly do it a little bit sooner (more to the point, buy something for $15,000 more in up-front expense than I might have done, otherwise). Anyway, is there a reason to assume automatically that the mortgage debt assumed in conjunction with the rebate will be 'toxic?'
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Hell, reading the OP article suggests that the government's idea of 'stimulus' is to get people into more debt! Home-buyer's credit? New car buyer's credit? Fuck that shit.
There's no reason for people who can handle debt, and properly service that debt, to avoid debt for the sake of avoiding debt. So far as I can understand, the toxicity of the present debt-mass is a consequence of people being extended the opportunity to assume debt that they couldn't handle or service. And some proportion of those debtors desrve the pain they're in, because they stupuidly overextended themselves when they knew damn well they couldn't afford it. Fuck those shits.
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Tax rebates to people who don't pay taxes? Fuck that shit.
Supercalifragilisticexpialodocious-fuck-that-shit. I'm with you here. People who don't even pay income taxes should not be getting anything back from a pool into which they did not pay.
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:More tax rebates after it was proven by the last half-assed 'stimulus' package that these rebates immediately go into servicing debt (be it the consumer's credit-card debt, or the bank's debts when the consumer sticks it into his savings account,) instead of promoting economic flow? Fuck that shit.
Pretty well with you there, too.
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Now, if you will excuse me, I need to use my economic 'stimulus' windfall to buy some bourbon to take the edge off my anger. And to stock up on ammo for that upcoming fight over the last can of soup.
Way ahead of you. Scotch, soup and 7.62x39 laid in for a couple years, now.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Jaevric »

Bah.

I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, sure, in the short run I'm happy at getting another $500.00 back from the government. I like money, after all, it is a useful thing to have around. And a new car buyer credit? Well, my car's getting a little long in the tooth and I wouldn't mind trading it in while the value is still decent. And I'm not looking at anything crazy-expensive, just going from a Mazda Protege to a Mazda 3...

But in the long run...this is a DUMB idea, and as much as I'd like the extra cash and some more incentive to replace my car, I think I'd far rather see some actual efforts made to solve the problems we're facing even if it meant I have to drive an older car and go to the library instead of the bookstore a bit more often.

Unfortunately, the old "bread and circuses" approach has been modernized to "cash and new toys," and I suspect it'll turn out to still work pretty well in the short run.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by The Original Nex »

Mr Bean wrote:The home buyer rebate is the exact wrong thing to put into the bill. As is the 500$ money giveaway. I can see arguments for the Alternative Minimum tax workaround or the college aid but not those two. That's 170 billion pissed away to little effect and I toss plus three child tax credit.
Wasn't the home-buyer tax credit slashed from the final conference bill that's going to the floor vote tomorrow anyways?
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Sea Skimmer wrote:I am generally of the opinion of fuck driving the nation deeper into debt just to give a tax refund to people who didn’t pay taxes in the first place.
Workers don't pay payroll taxes? Payroll taxes aren't used to fund general spending? News to me.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

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KrauserKrauser wrote:If this stimulus bill proves anything its that either Obama doesn't have the balls to stand up to Pelosi and Reid to get a bill that will actually address the problems of the country, or he is simply another in a long line of politicians that are satisfied with the status-quo and at no point is willing to tackle the real problems that face the nation.
What precisely do you think are the "real problems that face the nation", and how would you solve them?

See, in my view the real problem is one of unrealistic expectations, and that comes from regular people. I personally blame Reagan for putting those expectations in peoples' heads and finding a way to make them think they were realistic long enough to stay in office for two terms (thus creating a Beltway mindset of perpetually putting off problems into the future). But whatever the cause, the mindset is firmly fixed in place now: everyone, from welfare recipients through the middle class right up to the fat-cat kleptocrat class, all believe they can have a more luxurious lifestyle with less work than is realistically possible.

But how are you supposed to solve that? Tell the people that they're all idiots? Tell them that they should all just accept a lower standard of living? Tell them that they have to get this idiotic "we can have everything we want, and pay lower taxes" mindset out of their heads even though it's been drilled into them for three decades? Bury your head in the sand and try to blame it all on some scapegoat like illegal immigrants or liberals?
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Kanastrous »

Well, some number of us don't operate on unrealistic expectations, and thus are *not* over-extended, debt-ridden and desperate.

While I can't speak for others in that class, I have to admit that my instinctive response to others is fuck you, now you can take your medicine, for which - out of my responsibly saved and invested money - I do not want to pay.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

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Kanastrous wrote:Well, some number of us don't operate on unrealistic expectations, and thus are *not* over-extended, debt-ridden and desperate.

While I can't speak for others in that class, I have to admit that my instinctive response to others is fuck you, now you can take your medicine, for which - out of my responsibly saved and invested money - I do not want to pay.
I've got good news and bad news for you.

The good news is you might get your wish.
The bad news, unless your independently wealthy you are going to be fucked along with everyone else. If we get great depression bad your talking about hordes of homeless and millions of unemployed Americans. Oh and perhaps America defaulting on some of her debt. Which would be a clusterfuck all it's own.

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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

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Kanastrous wrote:Well, some number of us don't operate on unrealistic expectations, and thus are *not* over-extended, debt-ridden and desperate.

While I can't speak for others in that class, I have to admit that my instinctive response to others is fuck you, now you can take your medicine, for which - out of my responsibly saved and invested money - I do not want to pay.
Yeah, but you're not a politician. No politician could say something like that, or even a watered-down version of it.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by TrailerParkJawa »

Mr Bean wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:Well, some number of us don't operate on unrealistic expectations, and thus are *not* over-extended, debt-ridden and desperate.

While I can't speak for others in that class, I have to admit that my instinctive response to others is fuck you, now you can take your medicine, for which - out of my responsibly saved and invested money - I do not want to pay.
I've got good news and bad news for you.

The good news is you might get your wish.
The bad news, unless your independently wealthy you are going to be fucked along with everyone else. If we get great depression bad your talking about hordes of homeless and millions of unemployed Americans. Oh and perhaps America defaulting on some of her debt. Which would be a clusterfuck all it's own.
Yup, things are getting so bad in terms of housing price drops and layoffs that people who did things right are now screwed as they are pulled into to maelstrom. Even if you put down 20% and kept your payments reasonable that doesn't help if your house went down 40% and you lose your job. That 6 month supply of cash will be gone soon enough with a realistic chance that your still going to be out of work. Then what do you do? I think Bean is right, unless your wealthly or have a big pile of cash, things are bad enough you can take the hit too.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Kanastrous »

I guess that sharing the hit for others' ineptitude can just be one of the costs of operating within a larger economy.

Although I don't know anything about economics. Which probably shows.

*edit* I don't know if I mentioned this elsewhere but my folks were visiting and a couple of times while half-watching CNN my mom reflected that she hadn't expected to see two Great Depressions, in her life.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Well, you and I can be comforted by the fact that our sound financial intelligence gives us a better chance of profitting from the eventual recovery. Silver lining after all.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Coyote »

KrauserKrauser wrote:So the CEOs and fat-cat-types and not say, the Federal Reserve, Congress or any legislative bodies? There is more than enough blame to go around. Hell, why not single out Greenspan, Paulson or even Bush if you are going to throw around such threatening and obviously poorly thought out ideas. Surely the policy makers are more responsible for putting in bad policy than the people taking advantage of bad policy.
Because a lot of politics is image, dude. If you're assigning rational thought to an angry crowd easily swayed by today's headline, you're in for a rollercoaster ride.

Right now, the Banks execs and various CEOs are seen as the problem. Right or wrong, full blame or not, that is the current perception. Now, OTOH, if the Republicans in the government continue to obstruct any attempt at progress due to their petty politicking, and continue to accept Rush Limbaugh's mantra that the economy needs to fail big-time just so Obama has egg on his face, then we'll see the politicians get their due, too-- if the Repugs don't grow the fuck up, and start playing ball, there's a chance that by 2010 elections we'll see a swathe of R seats go D, and the Republicans will become a rump party unable to do much more than whinge.

The Republicans are living in a dream world-- they think that if they refuse to play and blame the Democrats, they can come back in 2010 and set the stage for, I dunno, Palin/Limbaugh 2012 or something. But so far, people aren't blaming the usual targets-- not a lot of, say, anti-Immigrant sentiment about "them thar Mexicans takin' our jobs!" People are blaming the bosses, the CEOs, the top dogs.

True, the crowd is fickle and the American people can be swayed by pap. Maybe if the Repugs get on TV and wave enough flags and hump enough Bibles the higher brain functions will, indeed, shut down again-- time will tell. But right now, the fat cats are the ones in the crosshairs of public opinion.
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Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


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In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

You might want to refer to Mike's listing of the prominent people responsible for this mess, it's not just a bunch of "Repugs" as you so eloquently put it.

People are angry at CEOs and Bankers because it's a hell of alot easier for the media to get them up in a tizzy about it than spread the blame around to all responsible parties.

The Dems aren't exactly moral stalwarts and the stimulus bill is not something that anyone should be required to jump blindly in support of. This thing has been rammed down our throats and is the single biggest spending bill in the history of the country, the opposition party should jump on the bandwagon because the current wind says "OMG The world is going to burn if we don't pass this bill". Do you understand that this bill won't have much impact in the near term and does not properly address our long term issues and yet is being sold as the cure all for the past, present and future?

I would think that you were smarter than to simply follow along with the "mob".
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

KrauserKrauser wrote:You might want to refer to Mike's listing of the prominent people responsible for this mess, it's not just a bunch of "Repugs" as you so eloquently put it.

People are angry at CEOs and Bankers because it's a hell of alot easier for the media to get them up in a tizzy about it than spread the blame around to all responsible parties.
Why not be mad at them? Too bad they don't get mad at the Reaganites on both sides of the isle (but mainly yours) who worshiped at the altar of unrestrained greed and claimed it as a way forward for America that would regulate itself.
KrauserKrauser wrote:The Dems aren't exactly moral stalwarts and the stimulus bill is not something that anyone should be required to jump blindly in support of. This thing has been rammed down our throats and is the single biggest spending bill in the history of the country, the opposition party should jump on the bandwagon because the current wind says "OMG The world is going to burn if we don't pass this bill".
Is it the largest adjusted for inflation? Because if not you're just a GOP noise machine.
KrauserKrauser wrote:Do you understand that this bill won't have much impact in the near term and does not properly address our long term issues and yet is being sold as the cure all for the past, present and future?

I would think that you were smarter than to simply follow along with the "mob".
Oh please. You are such a rational freethinker? What alternative do you propose? What is so virtuous about standing up to a bill out of insane free market fundamentalism and party solidarity? The GOP is in this to appease the redneck Palinist fringe and to circle the wagons, not because they want to offer a real alternative - their proposal is even worse than the compromise bill.
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why not be mad at them? Too bad they don't get mad at the Reaganites on both sides of the isle (but mainly yours) who worshiped at the altar of unrestrained greed and claimed it as a way forward for America that would regulate itself.
Getting mad at them is fine, thinking that the next obvious step is lynching and endorsing mob violence against the blanket group of CEOs and Bankers is another thing entirely. Coyote was endorsing this while completely ignoring the fact that these people are not the sole cause of the current crisis.
Is it the largest adjusted for inflation? Because if not you're just a GOP noise machine.
The closest Spending bill, Nitram already trotted out the $1.3 trillion Tax Cut bill of Bush the Junior which I am ignoring as it is a Tax Cut bill and does not involved targetting spending, would be the New Deal of FDR.

The New Deal came in 2 waves and had a total inflation adjusted cost of $500 Billion.

So this bill is double the size of the combined New Deal and has been suggested by Obama and the head Dems in Congress as just the first of many such spending bills.

It's gigantically huge and is now being literally snuck through Congress by the Democrats.
Oh please. You are such a rational freethinker? What alternative do you propose? What is so virtuous about standing up to a bill out of insane free market fundamentalism and party solidarity? The GOP is in this to appease the redneck Palinist fringe and to circle the wagons, not because they want to offer a real alternative - their proposal is even worse than the compromise bill.
Nope, I have my biases as do you but as DW, J, Aerius, etc have put out there, this bill is not going to solve the actual problems underlying the current crisis. Where did I say that the GOP plan was any better? I objected to the current bill without providing a plan, in the future I will state that I endorse J, Aerius, etc and their approach as it will hurt but might actually fix the problem and bring us back to a more solid financial bedrock to work up from.

Just because I'm a registered Republican does not mean I support all of their actions and policies, as I'm sure the registered Democrats on the board do not support all of the Dems actions and policies.

Are there currently any people on either side of the aisle that are proposing plans approaching the actions J, DW, etc have put forward?
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Re: Benefit from the Stimulus Bill

Post by Coyote »

KrauserKrauser wrote:You might want to refer to Mike's listing of the prominent people responsible for this mess, it's not just a bunch of "Repugs" as you so eloquently put it.
The public perception is that the Republicans loosened controls on the market (the way they always promise) and now we have these bank crises. The government literally handed out money to banks, 350-billion, with absolutely no accountability. Shortly after that, we hear about corporate jets, million-dollar office make-overs, insane bonuses, wild Super Bowl parties, and junkets to Las Vegas.

Now, technically speaking, when we sit down and do the mental abacus, we remember that Bill Clinton helped push a lot of deregulation and free trade. We also know that the 350-billion that disappeared got spent with the help of a Democratic Congress. BUT-- It happened under GW Bush's Administration, the Democrats didn't have a majority enough in Congress to do it on their own, and extreme deregulation is a known Republican mantra.

So, while a lot of this had to be done with help from Democrats, the sad truth is it meant that Democrats fell in line with Republican plans and goals.

People are angry at CEOs and Bankers because it's a hell of alot easier for the media to get them up in a tizzy about it than spread the blame around to all responsible parties.
No, people are mad at them because they're getting assed out of their homes while the fat cats are getting the abovementioned bonuses, parties, jets and makeovers, and while homeowners and taxpayers have to carefully balance every dollar and account for it on April 15th, those fat-cats are in a position where they can literally lose track of$350 billion and not get called for it. I can't believe you're blaming the media for people being angry at that. I suppose typical Republican-thought would have been that the media should keep it's fucking mouth shut so the public can remain in the dark about the kind of shenanigans going on with all that money, eh?

The Dems aren't exactly moral stalwarts and the stimulus bill is not something that anyone should be required to jump blindly in support of.
You should know that "other people do it!" quits working in the 4th grade, and typically doesn't fly here either.

This thing has been rammed down our throats and is the single biggest spending bill in the history of the country, the opposition party should jump on the bandwagon because the current wind says "OMG The world is going to burn if we don't pass this bill". Do you understand that this bill won't have much impact in the near term and does not properly address our long term issues and yet is being sold as the cure all for the past, present and future?
So we should wait until there's a Perfect Bill that Solves Everything? That does, I admit, fall in line with the usual Republican line about waiting for Jesus to come and set everything aright [ :roll: ]. This bill is better than inaction, I believe, and at least it annotates where the money is going to go, instead of just shoveling it into the mouths of the biggest corporations and cutting them loose.
I would think that you were smarter than to simply follow along with the "mob".
Don't think for a second that just because I am telling you how the mob feels that I agree with everything they say. But I will say that there are times when the "mob" has a damn good point, and I think this is one of them.

When Marie Antoinette was told the peasants were hungry and had no bread, and she said "they can eat cake, then", it revealed the level of disconnect the ruling class had with the suffering of the workers. The CEOs of America seem to be completely baffled as to why people are angry at them for getting government bailouts and spending on bonuses, spa treatements, etc. They feel they deserve this, have earned it, and there's no reason to question them at all. They are modern-day Antoinettes, and the crowd is getting restless. Hence my comment that I'm surprised little threatening action has actually been seen.

Today, however, I'd personally recommend real jail time for the CEOs, rather than the Guillotine (by 'real jail time' that means orange jumpsuit, behind bars, eating slop with the rest of the thugs, and having to use cigarretes for currency; not two months in house arrest, a day or two of community service picking up trash, and then scot-free).
Last edited by Coyote on 2009-02-13 10:51am, edited 3 times in total.
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Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


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In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
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