Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Well, looks like you all got your wish, the Dems completely shut out the Republicans from the discussion to finalize the form of the largest spending bill in American History.

Link
SURPRISE! Dems Break Promise: Stimulus Bill to Floor Friday
by Connie Hair (more by this author)
Posted 02/12/2009 ET
Updated 02/13/2009 ET


In a press conference Thursday, the House Republican leadership spoke candidly about being kept out of the House-Senate conference on the Obama-Pelosi-Reid so-called “economic stimulus” bill. They confirmed they had not yet seen the text of the bill as of 4 p.m.

Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) said he was unsure how many Democrats would vote with Republicans again on this bill but that he thought Republicans “may get a few” Democrats to side with them. The fact that the Demos have now broken their promise to have the public able to see the bill for 48 hours may drive more Dems into the Republican camp.

don’t know, ‘cause they haven’t seen the bill either,” Boehner said.

“The American people have a right to know what’s in this bill,” Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind) told HUMAN EVENTS after the press conference. “Every member of Congress -- Republicans and Democrats -- voted to post this bill on the internet for 48 hours, 48 hours ago. We’ll see if the Democrats keep their word.”

Actually -- as of 5:15 pm, the Democrats had broken their word. The stimulus bill -- which we still haven’t seen -- will be released late tonight and will be brought up on the House floor at 9 am tomorrow.

The following statement was released by Majority Leader Steny Hoyer at 4:57 p.m.:

"The House is scheduled to meet at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow and is expected to proceed directly to consideration of the American Recovery and Reinvestment conference report. The conference report text will be filed this evening, giving members enough time to review the conference report before voting on it tomorrow afternoon."

Meanwhile, at an earlier presser Thursday, Pelosi -- while talking about legislation regarding school construction funds -- said it was vital to see the language of a bill before making decisions. ReadtheStimulus.org had the following quote:

“With all of this you have to see the language. You said this --- I said that --- I understood it to be this way --- you know, we wanted to see it in writing and when we did that then we were able to go forward."

"Around here language means a lot. Words weigh a ton and one person's understanding of a spoken description might vary from another's. We wanted to see it. And not only just I had to see it, I had to show it to my colleagues and my caucus. We wanted to take all the time that was necessary to make sure it was right."

Congressional members are also exchanging barbs via the popular social network Twitter. Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) twittered, "Don't know when we're going to vote. Will the no votes delay vote just because they can? Speed is important. They know that."

House Republican Whip Eric Cantor (R-Va.) twittered back, “Those in favor of speed over commonsense may just be afraid of letting the People know what they are ramming through.”

UPDATE: The Democrats finally made the bill's language available around 11 p.m. Thursday, approximately 10 hours before members meet Friday to consider the bill and 38 hours short of the time promised Americans to review the bill.


And if that source was too biased for you:

Link

Stimulate First, Ask Questions Later
With the stimulus bill, Obama chose urgency over transparency.
By John Dickerson
Posted Wednesday, Feb. 11, 2009, at 6:32 PM ET

President Barack ObamaFor President Obama to get a stimulus bill, something had to give. You can have urgency or transparency or a thorough think about things. But you can't have all three. Forced to choose, Obama chose the fierce urgency of now.

The president heralded a deal reached Wednesday in the House and Senate on a stimulus bill, but the process wasn't pretty. Creating legislation often isn't. Instead of finding a Lego piece that fits, lawmakers get a larger one and bite it in half. Never mind the jagged edges.

In this case, not only is the end product ragged—some of the elements aren't terribly stimulative—but the means were ugly. The differences between the House and Senate bills were reconciled mostly in secret by House and Senate Democratic leaders, three Northeastern Republicans, and White House aides. This is hardly unusual for Washington—which is precisely the problem: It's not the change Obama promised.

Obama promised his administration would be so transparent that its deliberations would be shown on C-SPAN. Had cameras recorded negotiations on the stimulus bill, it would have looked like a scene from Animal Crackers. As Jeff Zeleny reported, the stimulus deal was so opaque even the people negotiating it weren't in on what was in it.

Obama and his aides are quick to point out that the stimulus bill includes transparency provisions. So maybe we shouldn't worry. There's going to be a Web site, www.recovery.gov, which will allow people to make sure the money from the stimulus bill is being spent wisely. That's fine as far as it goes. But that isn't far enough to get us out of the depot. The time for transparency is when a decision is being made, not after it has been issued. Once a piece of legislation has been agreed to, or a project has been put in motion, pointing to a Web site doesn't create much moral pressure to undo the deed.

But don't take my word for it. Here's what Barack Obama's very own Web site says about transparency in legislative negotiations:

End the Practice of Writing Legislation Behind Closed Doors: As president, Barack Obama will restore the American people's trust in their government by making government more open and transparent. Obama will work to reform congressional rules to require all legislative sessions, including committee mark-ups and conference committees, to be conducted in public.

Pointing out this contradiction is not going to undo the bill.

The other victim of urgency is considered thought (which also can't be recovered by a Web site). There's been lots of debate about what to add or subtract from the bill to get a deal. But that's horse-trading, not consideration. In the rush to get the votes, discussions about national priorities on education, technology, and transportation have happened at warp speed.

True, there has been a lot of public debate about what is and isn't stimulative, and the president himself spent an hour patiently teaching the country the other night about the bill. But he was talking more about the need for urgency than any particular part of the stimulus package. And in the rush to get a deal, some barely stimulative provisions have gotten into the bill. The alternative minimum tax fix is a large example. At $70 billion, it's not a small part of the bill, but it's an anemic stimulus. Other stuff would probably be better.

The argument against transparency, of course, is that the perfect can't be the enemy of the good. That's eminently reasonable and realistic. It's an expression we've heard often as the negotiations have come to a close. Something always has to fall out of legislation. In this case it was transparency and consideration. Whether they've fallen out of the young Obama administration, too, is something we'll have to figure out in less urgent times.


Well, Obama definitely trampled all over his Increased Transparency promises with this one. I understand wanting to get your version of the bill passed but there is a hell of a lot of difference between promising to allow for 48 hours to review the bill and not providing a copy of it less than 24 hours before the schedule voting time.

Haste makes Waste and with this amount of money, that's going to be a hell of alot of waste.

Also, I've heard unsubstantiated rumors that the secret conference balooned the size of the bill to over a trillion dollars.

Transparency Ho!!!
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Maybe if the Republicans offered more than free market cult ritual and tax cut fetishism when it came to constructive policy criticism, they'd be more useful.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10420
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Solauren »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Maybe if the Republicans offered more than free market cult ritual and tax cut fetishism when it came to constructive policy criticism, they'd be more useful.
But if they did that, they wouldn't be Republican's now would they?

I'm glad to see this get pushed through. The debate is essentially over. Now it can either sink or swim on it's own.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
Kanastrous
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6464
Joined: 2007-09-14 11:46pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Kanastrous »

The Republicans collectively made their stance clear for eight years: whoever's in and has the power to force their way, gets their way, no input from the other party desired or required.

If they don't care for that form of governance now that they are on the outs, they can collectively go suck dick (the straight Republicans can, that is; gay and bi Republicans can find something equally unappealing to them, and go do that).
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
User avatar
Simplicius
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2031
Joined: 2006-01-27 06:07pm

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Simplicius »

KrauserKrauser wrote:Well, looks like you all got your wish, the Dems completely shut out the Republicans from the discussion to finalize the form of the largest spending bill in American History.
Quite frankly, the Republican party line is so bogged down with frivolous, destructive dogma that they don't even serve a good purpose as an opposition party any more - they don't even serve their country any more. There's no rule anywhere that says that a regressive right-wing bloc must be an important part of a multi-party system, and the USA would be much better off if the GOP was told to go play in traffic and the center-right politicians formed the major conservative party in their place.
Haste makes Waste and with this amount of money, that's going to be a hell of alot of waste.
I hear that rhyming folk aphorisms are such effective pieces of political wisdom that they don't need elaboration or substantiation? Try making a serious, factual case for less or slower spending if you don't want just to be scoffed at.
Also, I've heard unsubstantiated rumors that the secret conference balooned the size of the bill to over a trillion dollars.
Your unsubstantiated rumors aren't worth very much, especially since the need to keep Snowe and Collins on board provides a downward pressure on the size of the bill anyway.
Transparency Ho!!!
Pot, kettle, etc. The Democrats are only playing by the rules your team established.
User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by RedImperator »

Simplicius wrote:
Transparency Ho!!!
Pot, kettle, etc. The Democrats are only playing by the rules your team established.
To be fair, they were also rules Democrats (rightly) howled about when they were on the receiving end. I don't like locking the opposition party out of conference negotiations; it generally produces worse bills and removes incentives for the opposition to cooperate in the future. On the other hand, the House Republicans deliberately embarrassed Obama with their antics--inviting him out on a limb to gain their support at the expense of his own party's priorities, and then giving him zero votes in the House. If this rumor is true (and I have my doubts, at least with regards to Senate moderate Republicans), it's a perfectly understandable punishment for dicking the President of the United States around.
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

It's also something Obama and Co. railed against on the campaign trail and promised not to continue in this new era of hoping for the changing hope of change.
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict
User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7956
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by ray245 »

KrauserKrauser wrote:It's also something Obama and Co. railed against on the campaign trail and promised not to continue in this new era of hoping for the changing hope of change.
Well, they tried to avoid those sort of things during the first few weeks. Well, we know what happened next.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
User avatar
Simplicius
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2031
Joined: 2006-01-27 06:07pm

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Simplicius »

KrauserKrauser wrote:It's also something Obama and Co. railed against on the campaign trail and promised not to continue in this new era of hoping for the changing hope of change.
Yes, and to reply with an aphorism of my own, "Politics is the art of the possible." One the one hand we have the ideal of transparency and lengthy, considered debate; on the other we have the need to actually define and enact policy. Considering that the contribution of the House Republicans to this debate was negative, compromising an ideal in the name of overcoming pointless stonewalling is entirely acceptable. In case we've forgotten:
First article wrote:In a press conference Thursday, the House Republican leadership spoke candidly about being kept out of the House-Senate conference on the Obama-Pelosi-Reid so-called “economic stimulus” bill.
I don't have an especially high opinion of the stimulus package, but unlike you I see no evidence that letting the House Republicans in on this conference was going to improve it any, in light of their past behavior. And if I have to choose between practical gains and ideals, I will choose practical gains every time.
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

KrauserKrauser wrote:It's also something Obama and Co. railed against on the campaign trail and promised not to continue in this new era of hoping for the changing hope of change.
Yeah, and then you guys knifed him the back. He did fill it with tax cuts and invite rah rah bipartisanship and then you guys from McCain on down sided with Rush Limbaugh and denied him a single vote for his out-reach in the House. Bite the hand that feeds you, and don't be surprised it doesn't reach out for awhile. Contrariwise, Bushism called for framing the discussion from the start from the ultra-far-right and "moderating" and "compromising" to the merely far-right and just brushing aside any criticism or opposition and openly agitating for "the nuclear option."
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by RedImperator »

KrauserKrauser wrote:It's also something Obama and Co. railed against on the campaign trail and promised not to continue in this new era of hoping for the changing hope of change.
And it's also something Republicans thought was just superfine and awesome when they were the ones doing it. Back then, it was "tough luck, we won, you lost, deal with it" and "We'll be in the majority forever! Nothing we ever do will come back to haunt us later." Now it's "awww, ah bloo bloo bloo, that big meanie Nancy Pelosi is being partisan. And just because we gave the president the finger and tried to make him look like an ineffectual asshole! It's not fair!"

I have two questions for you: 1) What do you think Obama and the Democrats could have reasonably expected by inviting House Republicans into the conference, and 2) where was all your bipartisan outrage when it was Bush, Frist, and DeLay pulling the exact same bullshit?
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Honestly, as I stated in another thread, after thinking it through I don't think the current House or Senate Reuplicans would have wanted to make the changes necessary to make this bill something other than what it currently is, a steaming pile of crap with a few good chunks that we are all going to have to dig ourselves out from in the future.

I'm more angry that since this is such an important bill, Obama should have honored his promise of transparency on this bill, regardless of the House Republicans having stabbed him in the back previously.

The Dems and Obama promised a 48 review period for the bill. It was just released at 9AM today, with voting starting on it today at 9AM. Regardless of the fact that the final bill was worked out in secret squirrel chambers without dissenting opinions allowed.
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Darth Wong »

So Obama should continue to honour his promise to drop the partisanship even though the Republicans completely reneged on their identical promise, despite his initial attempts to follow through with that promise?

You're either an imbecile or an incredible flaming hypocrite.

And why do you keep using the word "transparency" when that's not what it means? Transparency means that information is not being kept secret. That doesn't mean they're not allowed to have private meetings; it just means they have to come out afterwards with information that we're all allowed to read. If someone promoted this extreme definition of "transparency" when Bush was in office, you would have jumped all over him and you know it.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Darth Wong wrote:So Obama should continue to honour his promise to drop the partisanship even though the Republicans completely reneged on their identical promise, despite his initial attempts to follow through with that promise?

You're either an imbecile or an incredible flaming hypocrite.
There is a difference between bipartisanship and simply not honoring your promise of increased visbility of the processes of government.

Obama and Co. promised two things that the bill would be bipartisan, which as you, IP and others have shown to not be valid now that the GOP didn't play nice, and would be available for review 48 hours in advance of voting, which it was not. The final bill was made available to the public not 48 hours before voting, not 24 hours before voting, but at the same time that voting started on the bill.

Hence the comments as to the transparency of the process that Obama and Co have used to create and pass the bill.

Also, I'll gladly retract those rumors, the final bill clocks in around $780 Billion.
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict
User avatar
Dark Hellion
Permanent n00b
Posts: 3558
Joined: 2002-08-25 07:56pm

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Dark Hellion »

So a politician didn't keep a promise? Are you that fucking stupid? How about "read my lips, NO NEW TAXES?" That was a well kept political promise too.

I find it ironic that you complain about haste in a process that the primary complaint by economists is that it is going too slow. Perhaps you have some magical knowledge about how the dems are going to add something to make this bill more ineffectual than the bloated piece of bipartisan crap it is? Oh wait.

Frankly, Obama reached out to the Republicans again and again, and when it finally came time to work together they slapped him in his face. It's refreshing to see him remind them that he is the president and if necessary he can fuck them in the ass. And given that Obama is a black man and the general proclivities of Republican sex scandals I have to wonder how much they are going like it.
A teenage girl is just a teenage boy who can get laid.
-GTO

We're not just doing this for money; we're doing this for a shitload of money!
Kanastrous
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6464
Joined: 2007-09-14 11:46pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Kanastrous »

I just hope that the administration takes a lesson from the last month or so, drops the 'bipartisan' crapola once and for all, and does not waste any more valuable time and capital on accommodating, or trying to accommodate, or trying to create the appearance of accommodation, with the Republicans.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Dark Hellion wrote:So a politician didn't keep a promise? Are you that fucking stupid? How about "read my lips, NO NEW TAXES?" That was a well kept political promise too.
Yeah, breaking that promise worked out really well for Bush Sr. didn't it? This is significant because this was Obama's first dance with the public with a very important bill and he fumbled. Time will tell if this will be a one time occurence of stupdity on his part, or a continuing trend.
I find it ironic that you complain about haste in a process that the primary complaint by economists is that it is going too slow. Perhaps you have some magical knowledge about how the dems are going to add something to make this bill more ineffectual than the bloated piece of bipartisan crap it is? Oh wait.
Please support the going to slow comment, I'm sure I can find counters that say not only is it going to fast, it isn't going to do enough.

The second question I don't even understand, I've already conceeded the fact that the GOP would probably not bring anything constructive to the table, does that now deny me the ability to continue to disagree with the bill in its current form?
Frankly, Obama reached out to the Republicans again and again, and when it finally came time to work together they slapped him in his face. It's refreshing to see him remind them that he is the president and if necessary he can fuck them in the ass. And given that Obama is a black man and the general proclivities of Republican sex scandals I have to wonder how much they are going like it.
I don't think this discussion needed a racist homophobic undertone added to it, so please stop that shit now.
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict
User avatar
Pablo Sanchez
Commissar
Posts: 6998
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:41pm
Location: The Wasteland

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Kanastrous wrote:I just hope that the administration takes a lesson from the last month or so, drops the 'bipartisan' crapola once and for all, and does not waste any more valuable time and capital on accommodating, or trying to accommodate, or trying to create the appearance of accommodation, with the Republicans.
I am of two minds about this.

On the one hand you're correct. Bipartisanship has to go both ways, and the GOP leadership structure has shown that it has absolutely no intention of going for it. They simply have no interest in engaging with Obama and the Democrats, perhaps because they are frightened of primary challenges, and for reasons that are fairly clear.

The House GOP is now a rump party whose remaining seats are situated in only the most reactionary districts, and with the curb-stomping the party suffered last November they're going to be very vulnerable to primary challenges from their most regressive constituents in 2010. They have to work now to evade accusations of being RINOs, not just to save their own seats but also to save the future of the Republican party. If bunches of their reduced current class are replaced by freshman representatives who also happen to be mouth-breathing troglodyte conservitards, the party will definitely become a permanent minority.

Additionally, I don't know how much can you fault the Republicans for acting like an opposition party. Some Democrats might be surprised by the vigorous contrariness of the GOP, but that's only because the Democratic Party was so useless at being an opposition party. Their job is to get out there and push their point of view, which is what they're doing. Of course, they're not managing the "loyal" part of "loyal opposition" very effectively, what with hoping that the country fails, but they have some time to get it right--they're going to be in the minority for a long damn time.

On the other hand, I disagree with you, because Obama should keep the olive branch extended. He shouldn't go to any more dinners and big conferences with them, just kind of passively make sure they know that the lines are clear, so that if they feel like being part of the solution they can come over and have a chat. Right now I think Republicans are somewhat shocked by how forcefully America rejected them, and once they settle in a little patience could start to shear off a few of them. I mean the ones who are not afraid of primary challenges, who are less ideological and more practical. It remains to be seen whether such Republicans actually exist, but I think it's something to at least try.
Image
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
User avatar
Tanasinn
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1765
Joined: 2007-01-21 10:10pm
Location: Void Zone

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Tanasinn »

The Republicans had their chance to cooperate and negotiate on the stimulus bill. Instead, they decided to toe the party line or scream like infants for the duration.

The GOP are, by all appearances, putting politics and party ideology before the country and its people. That's not too surprising, considering the rot that prevades the modern Republican party. They need to be left aside to shit in their diapers until they sober up, as Pablo said.
Truth fears no trial.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Post by Patrick Degan »

KrauserKrauser wrote:Obama should have honored his promise of transparency on this bill, regardless of the House Republicans having stabbed him in the back previously.
Guess what? Obama is under no obligation to honour promises to the dishonourable. He made the effort, and the Republicans strung him along until they could publicly spit in his face. So they got shut out of the last-minute negotiations when they demonstrated every intention of being nothing but obstructionists? Fuck 'em. The plain fact is that your party, Krauser, is no longer interested in anything resembling governance, especially if they're not the ones in power. Well, it's past time for a job doing, and if Republicans have committed themselves only to blind, unwavering opposition at any and all costs, even if the country burns for it, they deserve to get run over.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Dark Hellion
Permanent n00b
Posts: 3558
Joined: 2002-08-25 07:56pm

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Dark Hellion »

I don't think this discussion needed a racist homophobic undertone added to it, so please stop that shit now.
And the faux outrage again. It has to be hard to pretend to be upset about something you'd not apologize for if your own party said isn't it? Here's a hint, by board standards I am conservative and on the right. That doesn't mean I can't recognize the utter bullshit you are trying to peddle here as some faked outrage that Obama has the fucking gall to do what your party did for eight fucking years.

Oh, and implying that Blacks have large penises is about as racist as implying whites can't dance. I doubt anyone is offended other than you, but if they are, I'll apologize. However, the fact that numerous sexual scandals amongst Republicans and gay men exist is common knowledge, especially on this board, and I don't think I should apologize for implying that gay men like the butt sex. I am even going to go out on a limb (hopefully Einy or someone can lend me some support) that bigger is better?

But seriously, simultaneously denigrating upon me for using a joke that was mostly based on "Blazing Saddles" references while supporting the party that called the president "Boy" and has supported numerous homophobic and outright bigoted agendas against homosexuals? Blow it out your ass you sanctimonious cunt.
A teenage girl is just a teenage boy who can get laid.
-GTO

We're not just doing this for money; we're doing this for a shitload of money!
User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

Re:

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Patrick Degan wrote:Guess what? Obama is under no obligation to honour promises to the dishonourable. He made the effort, and the Republicans strung him along until they could publicly spit in his face. So they got shut out of the last-minute negotiations when they demonstrated every intention of being nothing but obstructionists? Fuck 'em. The plain fact is that your party, Krauser, is no longer interested in anything resembling governance, especially if they're not the ones in power. Well, it's past time for a job doing, and if Republicans have committed themselves only to blind, unwavering opposition at any and all costs, even if the country burns for it, they deserve to get run over.
How does any of that invalidate the fact that Obama and Co. made a promise to have the bill available for public review for 48 hours prior to voting and instead the bill was not available until the time voting started?

I've been pretty clear that the issue I am complaining about is the fact that given Obama's promises of increased transparency the fact that he lied about a 48 hour public review period before voting began is a pretty big deal.

I've already stated that the Republicans probably would not have brought any constructive changes to the bill even if Obama had continued to include them after they slighted him, so why is everyone still arguing with me about this point.
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict
User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by RedImperator »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Additionally, I don't know how much can you fault the Republicans for acting like an opposition party. Some Democrats might be surprised by the vigorous contrariness of the GOP, but that's only because the Democratic Party was so useless at being an opposition party. Their job is to get out there and push their point of view, which is what they're doing. Of course, they're not managing the "loyal" part of "loyal opposition" very effectively, what with hoping that the country fails, but they have some time to get it right--they're going to be in the minority for a long damn time.
I think this bears repeating. The problem isn't that the GOP didn't go along with the stimulus. It's a gigantic spending bill that expands the reach of the federal government, exactly the kind of thing they were elected to oppose. It's how they opposed it that's the problem--they strung Obama along in order to score as many political points as possible by embarrassing and weakening the administration. They fucked the White House and--hey, look at that, the White House fucked them right back. I suppose they can't be blamed for expecting a Democrat to cave, but they also shouldn't act shocked!--shocked!--that their partisanship triggered partisan retaliation, especially when that retaliation turned out to be the exact same thing they did to the Democrats from 1995 to 2007.

If this was just principled opposition to a bad bill, the House GOP leadership should have just said, "Sorry, we'd love to work with you, but this bill is fundamentally flawed and no realistic compromise will correct that." Then when it passes the Senate (with plenty of Republican goodies to get the likes of Snowe and Collins on board), they ask to participate in the conference to get a few more goodies, let their members from moderate districts and safe seats vote for it, and tell their constituents they worked hard to improve a bad bill that was going to pass anyway.

And on the other hand, if the party has well and thoroughly and truly cast its lot with Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the "No way, no how, not now, not ever" obstructionists, then they're free to go ahead and try to obstruct anything they want--and the administration and the Democratic congressional leadership is equally free to freeze them out of the process. It's the bitching and moaning about it afterwards that gets me. KrauserKrauser has conceded on that point, but I doubt he's the only one doing it.

Incidentally, I do think KrauserKrauser is right about not giving Congress time to read the bill. I understand why they're doing it--they don't want to give the GOP time to pick off Senate moderates or wavering Blue Dogs in the Senate--but this is how bad legislation becomes bad policy. They're also trying to meet their self-imposted Presidents' Day deadline without staying the weekend in DC, for which I've got zero fucking sympathy.
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Dark Hellion wrote:And the faux outrage again. It has to be hard to pretend to be upset about something you'd not apologize for if your own party said isn't it?
Back that up you little shit. Please provide evidence to support the claim that I would support any of the bullshit that you just spewed out. Posting history? Nope. Guilt by association? I'm part German and French, I guess I want to murder the Jews and have an overwhelming urge to wreck Stas Bush's shit as well.
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: Late Night Democrat Only Negotiations = Final Stimulus Bill

Post by Coyote »

Obama reached out to talk to them (GOP) from the get-go, and they completely turned their backs. Have any Republicans publicly repudiated Rush Limbaugh's public call for the economy to fail utterly so that Obama and the Democrats can get the blame? Almost none of the GOP have made any effort at all to be "bipartisan", whereas the Democrats and Obama have tried to be accomodating.

The Republicans are not negotiating in good faith, then, when the Democrats decide to quit bashing their heads aginst the wall, the GOP whines about "campaign promises" and "bipartisanship".

The GOP is being needlessly obstructionist, and they have pretty much tacitly admitted that they are going to sabotage the economy and bring more misery on the American people (with ripple effects to the world) just to "score" against the Democrats. Maybe they're upset because they got spanked so bad in the elections; but now they're just being spoiled brats about it.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Post Reply