ND and abortion again.

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Ender
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ND and abortion again.

Post by Ender »

linka
ND measure says fertilized egg has human rights
By DALE WETZEL – 10 hours ago

BISMARCK, N.D. (AP) — A measure approved by the North Dakota House gives a fertilized human egg the legal rights of a human being, a step that would essentially ban abortion in the state.

The bill is a direct challenge to Roe v. Wade, the U.S. Supreme Court decision that extended abortion rights nationwide, supporters of the legislation said.

Representatives voted 51-41 to approve the measure Tuesday. It now moves to the North Dakota Senate for its review.
The bill declares that "any organism with the genome of homo sapiens" is a person protected by rights granted by the North Dakota Constitution and state laws.

The measure's sponsor, Rep. Dan Ruby, R-Minot, said the legislation did not automatically ban abortion. Ruby has introduced bills in previous sessions of the Legislature to prohibit abortion in North Dakota.

"This language is not as aggressive as the direct ban legislation that I've proposed in the past," Ruby said during House floor debate on Tuesday. "This is very simply defining when life begins, and giving that life some protections under our Constitution — the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Critics of the measure say it will cost millions of dollars to defend. Ruby said the state has been willing to go to bat for other principles that were less important.

In Oklahoma, meanwhile, a state House committee Tuesday approved legislation that would prohibit physicians from performing abortions solely on account of the gender of a woman's fetus, even though the measure's author said there is no evidence the practice has ever occurred in the state.

The legislation passed 20-2 by the House Public Health Committee. The bill now goes to the full House for consideration.
The author of the bill, Rep. Dan Sullivan, R-Tulsa, said it is designed to stop couples from using the gender of a fetus as a reason to get an abortion. Sullivan said a doctor would be prohibited from performing an abortion if the mother specifically said the fetus' sex was the reason.

However, he said there is no evidence the practice has occurred in Oklahoma. "I haven't received any definite information that proves it," Sullivan said.
Text of the bill. I'm not sure what amazes me more, that the Ruby was able to say it doesn't ban abortion with a straight face, or that they sold this as it just being an amendment to a previous bill, when it replaces everything in the bill it is amending after the words A BILL (though in a few respects this seems less restrictive to me, but that's just a cursory glance).

The obvious goal here is to get a RvW challenge before the Roberts court and have it come down in their favor. While I usually wouldn't be very optimistic about that, the sheer bullshit of this definition may be enough. Off the top of my head, they now protect cancer (has a human genome and acts like a separate organism); make natural miscarriages cases of manslaughter, make not getting prenatal care either child abuse, negligence, or battery; banned IVF (with the stopping of stem cell research probably being an additional goal of this bill). Hell, if you use the dictionary definition of organism it doesn't preclude abortion at all as eggs can't survive outside of the womb.

Fuck, under this definition (and their intended application of all cells being fully human) I think everyone who took a bio class involving cell cultures just beat out Hitler and Stalin combined. Shit, in ND I now kill more "humans" that those guys just through natural replacement every 7 years.
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Kanastrous
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Kanastrous »

Does it have to be the *full* genome?

If I were to drop a human-sourced DNA sequence into, say, an E. Coli bacterium would that bacterium become a 'person' in these people's minds?

What about a human being who's missing certain genes? Is their genome no longer human? Can they be disposed of?

What about a tumor? The tumor cells have a full complement of human DNA. Would subjecting them to radiation or chemotherapy be murder?

I don't have better than a high-school education in genetics, but I guess the bill's authors have even less than that.
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Akhlut »

So, would sperm count under the definition of a "human" under this law? It contains a human genome (haploid) and can exist semi-indepdently of who it came from, at least for a while. Does this mean that all men who ejaculate in ND are guilty of millions of counts of manslaughter/murder?
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Oskuro »

Who needs an education in genetics when you can check the bible?
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Are they going to arrest women who use the Pill for murder? What about most any woman who has had a period after sex - desecrating the dead?

EDIT: I didn't even think of the cancer angle -- good show. Does that mean that one dead woman's cancer cell line can be considered a human person in all respects? Each and every separate culture?
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Patrick Degan
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Patrick Degan »

This won't fly even in the Roberts court. The bill is so broadly defined that it would essentially bring a large number of medical procedures to a grinding halt.
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Steven Snyder »

While they are at it...

If any organism with a human genome is considered a person, does that mean they are going to launch an investigation for each and every failed pregnancy? We aren't really about letting people die in this country without asking questions.
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Singular Intellect »

Steven Snyder wrote:While they are at it...

If any organism with a human genome is considered a person, does that mean they are going to launch an investigation for each and every failed pregnancy? We aren't really about letting people die in this country without asking questions.
I'm fairly sure masturbation and wasted ejaculate would then be considered murder as well.
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Teleros »

Somehow I can't see most of the problems with this (aside from the abortion side of things) surviving any test cases: is it really that likely that a judge will imprison a surgeon for removing a tumour from someone? Possibly if you had some true fundie nutcase as a judge you could get a ruling on masturbation being murder, but undoing stupid judgements is why people can appeal court rulings.

On the abortion front, I'm not even sure that the Supreme Court would overturn RvW - there's a difference between being right-leaning and being willing to piss off over half the population (~55% support it in 2007 according to Wikipedia) like that.
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Darth Raptor »

Singular Intellect wrote:I'm fairly sure masturbation and wasted ejaculate would then be considered murder as well.
And I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be. Let's not manufacture extra levels of idiocy here, they're bad enough already. I have NEVER encountered a theist who believes that life begins BEFORE conception. If one were to follow that tortured logic, then sexually mature males commit megadeath manslaughter even if they don't masturbate. Mature spermatozoa die after several days whether they get used or not. This is millions of "fatalities" in comparison to the one or two every month that females are responsible for. I suppose you could argue that because the organic matter is reincorporated into the body that the sperm aren't really "wasted" unless they're ejaculated but this still implies mass murder as only one sperm at best out of every ejaculation becomes a person. Generally speaking, I'd say that masturbation is supposed to be bad because of what's going through your head when it happens, not because ZOMG THOSE COULD HAVE BEEN PEOPLE.
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Re: ND and abortion again.

Post by Samuel »

Darth Raptor wrote:
Singular Intellect wrote:I'm fairly sure masturbation and wasted ejaculate would then be considered murder as well.
And I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be. Let's not manufacture extra levels of idiocy here, they're bad enough already. I have NEVER encountered a theist who believes that life begins BEFORE conception. If one were to follow that tortured logic, then sexually mature males commit megadeath manslaughter even if they don't masturbate. Mature spermatozoa die after several days whether they get used or not. This is millions of "fatalities" in comparison to the one or two every month that females are responsible for. I suppose you could argue that because the organic matter is reincorporated into the body that the sperm aren't really "wasted" unless they're ejaculated but this still implies mass murder as only one sperm at best out of every ejaculation becomes a person. Generally speaking, I'd say that masturbation is supposed to be bad because of what's going through your head when it happens, not because ZOMG THOSE COULD HAVE BEEN PEOPLE.
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Teleros wrote:Somehow I can't see most of the problems with this (aside from the abortion side of things) surviving any test cases: is it really that likely that a judge will imprison a surgeon for removing a tumour from someone? Possibly if you had some true fundie nutcase as a judge you could get a ruling on masturbation being murder, but undoing stupid judgements is why people can appeal court rulings.

On the abortion front, I'm not even sure that the Supreme Court would overturn RvW - there's a difference between being right-leaning and being willing to piss off over half the population (~55% support it in 2007 according to Wikipedia) like that.
Why? They don't have to worry about being reelected.
any organism with the genome of homo sapiens
How is this defined?
This is very simply defining when life begins, and giving that life some protections under our Constitution — the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
That is the Declaration of Independence :banghead:
The author of the bill, Rep. Dan Sullivan, R-Tulsa, said it is designed to stop couples from using the gender of a fetus as a reason to get an abortion. Sullivan said a doctor would be prohibited from performing an abortion if the mother specifically said the fetus' sex was the reason.
So the women are too stupid to just say a different reason? This sounds completely pointless.
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