Poster Child for Dumbass American Drivers

[Captain Kruger]

Now this just pisses me off to no end:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/23/china. ... index.html

For a case like this, the death penalty should be on the table. I'd happily throw the switch myself.

[Broomstick]

No, death penalty is not a good idea - hard labor for the asshole, with every penny he earns going to the families of the people he killed.

Prior conviction for vehicular homicide? Long history of reckless driving? No, he should not have had a license.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'll second that. Even in cases where the offender is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, the death penalty serves little purpose. Better to have the guy work off his debts.

Also, why the hell did he have a liscence? Him having one with such a record seems absurd in kind of the same way paroling repeat rapists does.

[Captain Kruger]

I'll second that. Even in cases where the offender is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, the death penalty serves little purpose. Better to have the guy work off his debts.

Also, why the hell did he have a liscence? Him having one with such a record seems absurd in kind of the same way paroling repeat rapists does.

Because the God-Given Right to Drive(TM) is something very very difficult to permanently take away from someone in the US, mainly because of the fact that we're the only uber-industrialized country in the world that didn't bother to make an efficient public transit system a priority. If he showed lots of boo-hoo sadness/sympathy the first time he murdered somebody with his fucking car then he was virtually guaranteed to get his license back eventually.

[Captain Kruger]

No, death penalty is not a good idea - hard labor for the asshole, with every penny he earns going to the families of the people he killed.

Actually that sounds like a good idea for someone who destroyed the lives of people half a world away.

[tim31]

Taking away the licence of a person like this doesn't stop them from driving; only jail can do that. We had a similar case in this country(or several such cases possibly) where repeat offenders wound up killing people and everyone screamed 'why was this allowed to happen?' So I restate: the only way to stop these people from driving on our roads is to deny them access by removing their civil liberties. People who refuse to obey road rules are not going to stop driving because someone tells them to. In this case, the guy should be working on a road-gang the rest of his life to cover the payout that the relevant traffic authority made to the families. But that's just my opinion, I know it would never work.

[Molyneux]

Any word on whether anyone's trying to help these women? Somehow I doubt any of them have a Paypal account.

[The Romulan Republic]

Incidentally, why does the thread title specify American drivers? I don't want to turn this into a debate on weather Americans are better or worse than the rest of the world, but its not like reckless driving is a purely American phenomenon. I suppose you could claim that its more common there for whatever reasons (like the aforementioned lack of investment in public transit and/or cultural/legal perception that driving is a right), but it would be nice to see statistics to that effect. As it is, the title strikes me as an unsupported and provocative generalization.

[Ryan Thunder]

Witnesses told the newspaper that several cars were waiting at a traffic light when Jason Skaggs, then 34, approached the intersection of Urbana and Moorefield roads. Skaggs crashed his blue Chevy Tahoe into a Buick Skylark at 98 mph (about 158 kph), went airborne and sandwiched Bian's Taurus between the Tahoe and a gold Chrysler, witnesses and police told the paper.

Holy fucking shit.

[Aratech]

Indeed... that's very difficult to pull off, doing fifty over the limit at minimum or not.

As an aside, I'm not sure I quite understand why they're having trouble suing this man. I gather due to the lack of insurance and the public defender his pockets aren't the deepest, but the punitive damages from a case like this would more than likely scrape up every penny this scumbag has to his name, and unless I'm much mistaken, here in the U.S. there are methods one can take to seize property and possessions that a defendant has if they do not otherwise have the monetary assets to pay off what they owe. Certainly, given that it's going to be the better part of the year 2037 before this guy sees daylight again, he's not going to be needing it.

Likewise, I wouldn't think it would be too hard to get some Tort based law firm to take this one on pretty close to pro bono. The potential positive P.R. for a move such as this would be immense.

I'll run this by my Torts professor tomorrow and see what she has to say about it.

[Knife]

No, death penalty is not a good idea - hard labor for the asshole, with every penny he earns going to the families of the people he killed.

Prior conviction for vehicular homicide? Long history of reckless driving? No, he should not have had a license.

I'll be honest; people who think that death is too good and hard labor is good, just reinforces the idea behind capital punishment. Honestly, life of hard labor sounds pretty harsh to a release.

[Pablo Sanchez]

As an aside, I'm not sure I quite understand why they're having trouble suing this man. I gather due to the lack of insurance and the public defender his pockets aren't the deepest, but the punitive damages from a case like this would more than likely scrape up every penny this scumbag has to his name, and unless I'm much mistaken, here in the U.S. there are methods one can take to seize property and possessions that a defendant has if they do not otherwise have the monetary assets to pay off what they owe.

You can sue somebody into bankruptcy and then take your place in line for the proceeds from the liquidation of his assets (as the Goldmans did to OJ Simpson), but it's definitely possible that "every penny this scumbag has to his name" is so little as to make a civil suit pointless.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Well we have real idiots who visit this park, however I have seen so many cases where people have done all kinds of things, and still keep driving. Boggles the mind really....

[Lusankya]

Could somebody please quote the article for me, because CNN seems to be being a bitch loading today, and I might not be able to read it otherwise.

[Samuel]

By Eliott C. McLaughlin
CNN

(CNN) -- The three mothers hail from the same province in China, but they'd never met until a reckless driver in central Ohio killed their only children.


From left, Sun "Zoe" Yan, Bian "Jack" Jin and Xue "Jo" Bing were students at Urbana University in Ohio.

1 of 3 Two years later, the women wade through a cultural morass, struggling with American laws and language as they work to recoup the tens of thousands of dollars they borrowed to educate, and bury, their children.

They've also lost their pride and possibly their future. In China, a family's future often rides on the education of its youngest member, and parents routinely mortgage the present for a brighter retirement.

The three mothers have no good news for friends and relatives who stop by their homes in northeast China, sometimes for hours, asking for their money. The mothers face the cultural shame of not being able to repay them, and many of their creditors don't believe them when they explain they've received little compensation for their losses.

"Even after I die, I could not close my eyes," Cai Tie Juan said, describing her stress and exhaustion through a translator.

On March 8, 2007, Cai's son, Bian Jin, 27, better known to his American counterparts as Jack, was returning from a spring break shopping trip with Sun Yan and Xue Bing, both 24. Learn more about students »

According to the Dayton Daily News, Bian was driving. Sun, aka Zoe, and Bian's girlfriend, Xue -- whose friends called her Jo -- were in the backseat of Bian's Ford Taurus. They were trying to get back in time for Sun's 6:30 p.m. shift at a local Chinese restaurant in Urbana, Ohio, where the three attended graduate school.

Witnesses told the newspaper that several cars were waiting at a traffic light when Jason Skaggs, then 34, approached the intersection of Urbana and Moorefield roads. Skaggs crashed his blue Chevy Tahoe into a Buick Skylark at 98 mph (about 158 kph), went airborne and sandwiched Bian's Taurus between the Tahoe and a gold Chrysler, witnesses and police told the paper.

The Taurus was reduced to a ball of crumpled metal with tires. Bian, Sun and Xue were killed instantly. Four others, including Skaggs, were injured. See photos of wreck, trial from Dayton Daily News

Want To Help?
Urbana University has collected thousands of dollars for the families of Xue Bing, Bian Jin and Sun Yan and will maintain a charitable fund indefinitely. Those interested in helping the families can send donations to:

c/o Jim Wilson
Office of Development
Urbana University
579 College Way
Urbana, Ohio 43078 Skaggs said he had had a seizure before barreling into the intersection, but the jury didn't buy the defense and found him guilty of aggravated vehicular homicide. During the trial, the media uncovered a litany of driving violations committed by Skaggs, including a speeding ticket he received for driving 91 mph in a 65-mph zone just weeks before the wreck.

Skaggs also had been jailed for aggravated vehicular homicide in the past, after he had passed a car in a blind curve in 1994, killing a 79-year-old mother and her son, the Daily News reported.

A judge in August sentenced Skaggs to the maximum 34 years in prison.

The students' parents wonder how Skaggs had a license to begin with. He'd already killed two people and had no insurance. And if epilepsy played a role in the wreck, it only bolsters their belief he shouldn't have been driving in the first place.

"Why could somebody let this happen?" Xue's mother, Sun Chun Zhi, asked through a translator. "Obviously, he had a history of driving recklessly and had violated many traffic laws."

Chinese laws would've never let someone like Skaggs drive, and more frustratingly, they say, the Chinese government would've stepped in with financial help if this had happened in their homeland.

Conversely, it is a Chinese law that has been most devastating. Because the world's most populous nation has for 30 years enforced a one-child-per-couple policy, Bian, Xue and Sun Yan had no siblings, so the families' prospects for the future were crushed in a Ford Taurus at the intersection of Urbana and Moorefield roads.

"When you raise a child in China, you are basically insuring your old age," Sun Yan's mother, Yu Ming, said, weeping as she spoke through a translator.

Because Bian, Xue and Sun Yan had promising futures, their parents were confident asking friends, relatives, colleagues and even their kids' classmates for money to send them to graduate school at the 1,500-student Urbana University.

In China, personal loans from banks aren't as common as they are in the U.S. More commonly, people borrow from friends and family, and you are honor bound to pay them back. There is no poor-mouthing or filing for bankruptcy.


The university unveiled a memorial last year among three Lacebark Pines, a native Chinese tree.

"You return what you owe. It is the bible of heaven and the ground rule of Earth," Yu said, using a Chinese saying to explain the importance of honoring your debts.

Each family borrowed in the neighborhood of 300,000 yuan, almost $44,000, to send their kids 6,500 miles to Urbana University. They each borrowed tens of thousands of dollars more for their children's funerals and several trips to the United States, some to attend Skaggs' trial.

They've collectively received about $19,000 from a state victim's fund and $22,000 from a charitable fund established by Urbana University. Another fund set up by the university collected about $36,000, but much of the money went toward the families' funeral and travel bills.

The mothers say they appreciate the donations because their pensions and pay are a pittance of what they owe.

Xue's father is back home in Dalian City, a trading hub of about 6 million people on the Liaodong Peninsula near North Korea. The retired office manager earns a pension of about 1,600 yuan, or $234, a month.

Bian's father and Sun Yan's father live in Shenyang, an industrial base of more than 7 million people, also near North Korea. Bian's father has been working all the overtime shifts he can muster and brings home about 3,500 yuan ($512) a month. Sun Yan's father is a farmer and receives no pension.

Meanwhile, the mothers have been in Springfield, Ohio, living in a home donated by a sympathizer since November. They keep their living expenses as low as possible, subsisting off one meal a day to save money.

Cai and Yu still collect their respective pensions of about 1,300 yuan ($190) and 700 yuan ($102) a month. Sun Chun Zhi has lost her job as an accountant because of all the trips she has made to the states in the last two years.

The women say they are pleading with anyone they think can help -- university officials, the consulate, even a senator.

Don't Miss
Photos from the Dayton Daily News' coverage
Urbana University
Yu said she and her husband recently sold their cozy apartment in Shenyang and moved in with a niece in China to help pay off their debts, which included about 50,000 yuan ($7,312) that Yu and her four siblings scraped together to pay their father's medical bills from a recent surgery.

"It didn't amount to a lot of money," Yu said of the apartment sale.

The mothers have considered suing Skaggs, who was represented at trial by a public defender, but lawyers have told them it's not worth it.

Friends and family members regularly stop by their homes in China, asking, "How could there possibly be no money? We really need money, too. Can you return it?" Sun Chun Zhi said. "They really don't understand why we didn't get any money. They didn't believe that ... they're not forcing you. They sit there and keep asking for money."

Added Yu, "They're not rich, either. They save all this money, and they don't spend like Americans, they save. And then they lend it to me, and now they've lost it, too."

The mothers are coping with emotional problems as well.

Sun said the death of her daughter has left the family feeling helpless and "emotionally destroyed." Yu, who did not eat for two days after the wreck, said she's lost her "source of energy." And Cai has taken up a regimen of sleeping pills to get some rest at night.

"It's not getting better. It also feels like my heart is almost failing me, and I feel my body is almost failing me," Cai said.


Sun Chun Zhi said she, Cai and Yu sometimes struggle to grasp "the meaning of why we need to survive" after losing their only children.

"But we cannot fall apart now because we are trying to return the money to the people we borrowed it from," said Sun Chun Zhi. "We're trying every possible way to return their money."

[Broomstick]

No, death penalty is not a good idea - hard labor for the asshole, with every penny he earns going to the families of the people he killed.

Prior conviction for vehicular homicide? Long history of reckless driving? No, he should not have had a license.

I'll be honest; people who think that death is too good and hard labor is good, just reinforces the idea behind capital punishment. Honestly, life of hard labor sounds pretty harsh to a release.

WHERE did I say "death is too good"? What's with the reading comprehension problem on this board? There's a difference between "death penalty is not a good idea" and "death is too good".

Yeah, a life of hard labor IS harsh. That's the fucking point It's punishment for killing other people, with any money going to the relatives of those victims in a paltry compensation for their loss. Why should the parents of these young people suffer because some idiot can't seem to learn to drive responsibly?

[Knife]

WHERE did I say "death is too good"? What's with the reading comprehension problem on this board? There's a difference between "death penalty is not a good idea" and "death is too good".

Yeah, a life of hard labor IS harsh. That's the fucking point It's punishment for killing other people, with any money going to the relatives of those victims in a paltry compensation for their loss. Why should the parents of these young people suffer because some idiot can't seem to learn to drive responsibly?

My point is, when this particular argument comes up, is that the 'no death penalty, let 'em break big rocks into small rocks the rest of their lives' makes you sound like a bigger asshole in some peoples opinion than a simple 'put the mad dog down'.

[Kanastrous]

(1) Hire clever attorneys to work out an extradition agreement allowing the killer to be sent to the P.R.C.

(2) Let him stand trial for murder in a Chinese court

(3) Let the court convict him, impose the death penalty, and send him to be broken down for parts (transplantable organs, tissues, etc) and/or sell off his remains for medical cadaver use

(4) Remit any profits earned to the families of the people he killed

Not likely to happen either, but just.

[Captain Kruger]

Incidentally, why does the thread title specify American drivers? I don't want to turn this into a debate on weather Americans are better or worse than the rest of the world, but its not like reckless driving is a purely American phenomenon. I suppose you could claim that its more common there for whatever reasons (like the aforementioned lack of investment in public transit and/or cultural/legal perception that driving is a right), but it would be nice to see statistics to that effect. As it is, the title strikes me as an unsupported and provocative generalization.

An idiot like this may have never been awarded a license in the first place had he been born in another country with higher driving standards. Even if he'd driven sane enough to pass a test and then gone bat shit once he was out on his own, he killed a mother and son 15 years ago not because of an honest mistake, but because he was passing another car on a blind curve. And then there was a long list of driving violations after that, including 91mph in a 65 zone (146kph in a 105) just a few weeks before the accident.

It's not only the piss poor standards for passing an American driving test in the first place, it's the fact that he'd already used his vehicle to kill people and had a lifelong history of psychotic behavior behind the wheel. In how many other countries would this waste of human flesh still have been driving legally when he murdered these kids?

[Captain Kruger]

(1) Hire clever attorneys to work out an extradition agreement allowing the killer to be sent to the P.R.C.

(2) Let him stand trial for murder in a Chinese court

(3) Let the court convict him, impose the death penalty, and send him to be broken down for parts (transplantable organs, tissues, etc) and/or sell off his remains for medical cadaver use

(4) Remit any profits earned to the families of the people he killed

Not likely to happen either, but just.

If you run for public office, you have my vote.

[Kanastrous]

It's not only the piss poor standards for passing an American driving test in the first place,

Several years ago the State of California DMV announced that "too few people" were passing the written driving test, and that they were simplifying the test as a result (because apparently too few passing grades didn't mean too many stupid ignorant applicants which was of course the case, but rather the test's too tough).

So they dumbed the test down to what the DMV itself described as a 'third grade level' exam.

I honestly don't know why California doesn't just let third graders drive, then, since we're obviously eager to put people who cogitate at that level on the roads behind the wheel. Okay, actual third graders would have trouble reaching the wheels and pedals, but that's easily addressed through enabling technology.

[Broomstick]

WHERE did I say "death is too good"? What's with the reading comprehension problem on this board? There's a difference between "death penalty is not a good idea" and "death is too good".

Yeah, a life of hard labor IS harsh. That's the fucking point It's punishment for killing other people, with any money going to the relatives of those victims in a paltry compensation for their loss. Why should the parents of these young people suffer because some idiot can't seem to learn to drive responsibly?

My point is, when this particular argument comes up, is that the 'no death penalty, let 'em break big rocks into small rocks the rest of their lives' makes you sound like a bigger asshole in some peoples opinion than a simple 'put the mad dog down'.

I'm sorry you seem to think making a convicted felon pay restitution is a fate worse than death. Frankly, I think your perspective is warped. I've also made it very clear on this board in other threads that I am opposed to the death penalty on moral grounds, so here it is again for your information. As far as I'm concerned, the moral choice isn't between death and hard labor, it's between idle life imprisonment and making the bastard work sufficiently to pay something back to the people he harmed who are still alive.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I don't know about Ohio, but the old CA driver's licence test you could answer the question with a legal manuver and still get it wrong. (EG right turn on a red stoplight.) The new written test is way too simple though, the basic skills test is a joke, you don't even have to show the abilty to parralell park, back up more then 5' in a straight line, or safely merge onto a freeway.

[Andras]

It's not only the piss poor standards for passing an American driving test in the first place, it's the fact that he'd already used his vehicle to kill people and had a lifelong history of psychotic behavior behind the wheel. In how many other countries would this waste of human flesh still have been driving legally when he murdered these kids?

Well, its not like he was a Georgian diplomat driving 75mph in a 25mph zone in DC crashing into 3 cars at a stoplight and killing a 16yr old teenager after drinking 6 drinks. The same diplomat who had previously been pulled over for driving over 90mph and again for driving the wrong way and claiming diplomatic immunity in each instance to avoid prosecution.

Nah, only Americans do that.

Georgian officials had initially invoked immunity for Mr. Makharadze, who was the second-ranking official at the embassy. President Shevardnadze of Georgia intervened, however, after a series of conversations with American officials.

In a plea agreement signed in October, Mr. Makharadze admitted to driving nearly 75 miles an hour in a 25 m.p.h. zone after consuming more than six drinks.

His car crashed into three other vehicles lined up at a stop light in Dupont Circle, and the first car in line was propelled 30 feet into the air, landing on a fourth car. Ms. Wagner's daughter was in the second of the cars.

Prosecutors have said Mr. Makharadze's blood alcohol level was at least 0.15 percent. The legal limit in the District of Columbia is 0.10.

Mr. Makharadze had previously used his diplomatic status in a brush with a police officer after he was found driving the wrong way down a street. Not long before, he was stopped for driving at 90 m.p.h. on a Virginia Interstate.

nytimes

[Junghalli]

Several years ago the State of California DMV announced that "too few people" were passing the written driving test, and that they were simplifying the test as a result (because apparently too few passing grades didn't mean too many stupid ignorant applicants which was of course the case, but rather the test's too tough).

So they dumbed the test down to what the DMV itself described as a 'third grade level' exam.

I honestly don't know why California doesn't just let third graders drive, then, since we're obviously eager to put people who cogitate at that level on the roads behind the wheel. Okay, actual third graders would have trouble reaching the wheels and pedals, but that's easily addressed through enabling technology.

In fairness, we have lots of people over here who don't speak English as a first language, and it may have something to do with that.