SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Surlethe »

At least, that's what I gather out of this article.

NY Times
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court ruled unanimously on Wednesday, in one of the most closely watched free speech decisions in years, that a tiny religious sect could not force a Utah city to let it erect a monument to its faith in a public park.

The fact that there is already a Ten Commandments monument in the park in Pleasant Grove City does not mean that city officials must also allow the religious group called Summum to place a monument there to the Seven Aphorisms of its faith, the justices ruled.

“We think it is fair to say that throughout our nation’s history, the general government practice with respect to donated monuments has been one of selective receptivity,” and properly so, Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. wrote for the court.

The case has been of keen interest to local and state officials across the country, as reflected in the fact that more than 20 cities and states, along with the federal government, sided with Pleasant Grove City in the matter. Not least among the officials’ concerns is what kinds of markers and monuments, if any, they might be forced to allow in public areas if Summum prevailed.

And while the case of Pleasant Grove City v. Summum, No. 07-665, involves religion, the real issue was free speech, not the separation of church and state, both of which are addressed in the First Amendment to the Constitution.

The Summum group has contended that the Pleasant Grove City officials were no more entitled to discriminate among private monuments donated to a public park than they were entitled to forbid speeches and leaflets advocating viewpoints that they found unpalatable.

But Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., writing for the court, said the arguments embraced by Summum were not really the right way to look at the case. The core issue is not private speech in a public forum but, rather, the power of government to express itself, in this case by selecting which monuments to have in a public park, Justice Alito wrote.

“The Free Speech Clause restricts government regulation of private speech,” Justice Alito noted. “It does not regulate government speech.”

While a government entity is quite limited in its ability to regulate or restrict private speech in traditional public forums, like parks, the government entity “is entitled to say what it wishes,” Justice Alito wrote, citing earlier Supreme Court rulings. If the people do not like what their government officials say or stand for, they can vote them out of office, he wrote.

Not that government, through its officials, can say whatever it wants whenever it wants, Justice Alito observed. For one thing, government expressions must not violate the First Amendment’s ban on endorsement of a particular religion. Moreover, what government officials say may be limited “by law, regulation, or practice.”

“And of course, a government entity is ultimately ‘accountable to the electorate and the political process for its advocacy,’ ” Justice Alito wrote, quoting from an earlier Supreme Court decision.

Justice Stephen G. Breyer emphasized in a concurring opinion that, while the Summum members have been thwarted in their bid to have a monument erected, “the city has not closed off its parks to speech; no one claims that the city prevents Summum’s members from engaging in speech in a form more transient that a permanent monument.” In other words, Summum members, like other citizens, can presumably hand out leaflets or stand on soapboxes and hold forth on the issues of the day.

The small park where the sect wanted its monument placed has a dozen or so monuments donated by private groups or individuals. Besides the Ten Commandments monument, they include an historic granary and the city’s first fire station, a wishing well and other displays reflecting the history of the area.

In its ruling on Wednesday, the high court overturned a decision by the United States Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit, which had sided with Summum and told the city to allow the group’s monument to be erected at once.

The Summum group was founded in 1975, and contains elements of Egyptian faiths and Gnostic Christianity. The word Summum derives from Latin, and refers to the sum of all creation. It seems clear from the history of the court case that not all the group’s aphorisms resonate with the descendants of Mormon pioneers. (“Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates,” one aphorism reads.)

The issues raised by the Summum lawsuit have been of interest to legal scholars as well as government officials. “No prior decision of this court has addressed the application of the Free Speech Clause to a government entity’s acceptance of privately donated, permanent monuments for installation in a public park,” Justice Alito noted.
On the one hand, this seems like common sense: the government isn't bound to accept all private donations of a particular class if it accepts one private donation of that class. On the other hand, permitting that a Ten Commandments monument be erected on public property while denying Summum(ism?) seems awfully close to endorsing one over the other. While that's not what the ruling was about, I still have an issue with this particular case.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Kanastrous »

This *is* endorsing one over the other.

No surprise, given the recent Bush packing of the court.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Master of Ossus »

Kanastrous wrote:This *is* endorsing one over the other.

No surprise, given the recent Bush packing of the court.
How do you figure that? If the city accepts one private gift from a religious organization, is it thereby bound to accept all private gifts from religious organizations lest it endorse one over the other?
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Kanastrous »

Yes, at least if the gifts are specifically in the form of public displays. Turning down one while permitting the other can't really be interpreted as anything but endorsement of one over the other.

Of course, the most obvious and most proper solution is to bar the placement of any religious displays of any sort on public land. People who enjoy that sport of thing could express themselves to their hearts' content, on private property, drawing on private resources.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Tanasinn »

Ideally, a city would not accept any explicitly religious "gift" at all.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by xammer99 »

Kanastrous wrote:No surprise, given the recent Bush packing of the court.
I am curious how you reached this conclusion given that "The Supreme Court ruled unanimously on Wednesday"? Since 2 of the 9 were appointed by Bush 43.

Meaning that Reagan's 2, Bush 41's 2, Ford's 1, and Clinton's 2 all agreed with Bush 43's 2.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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Master of Ossus wrote:How do you figure that? If the city accepts one private gift from a religious organization, is it thereby bound to accept all private gifts from religious organizations lest it endorse one over the other?
How do you figure that overt displays of religious beliefs does not qualify as endorsement of that religion? Consider this case of a statue of the Ten Commandments. The care and upkeep for the statue and its surroundings are not a trivial expense. The government is now picking up the costs for an activity that professes a faith, meaning it is in effect partly subsidizing that particular religion. How does that not constitute a violation of the establishment clause? "Oh sure we pick up their bills and help them get their message out over that of any other group, but we haven't outright said they are the state religion, so it is ok!"
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Ender »

xammer99 wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:No surprise, given the recent Bush packing of the court.
I am curious how you reached this conclusion given that "The Supreme Court ruled unanimously on Wednesday"? Since 2 of the 9 were appointed by Bush 43.

Meaning that Reagan's 2, Bush 41's 2, Ford's 1, and Clinton's 2 all agreed with Bush 43's 2.
Because while they agreed to support the right of the government's freedom of expression, Alito (a Bush 43 pick) is the one who wrote the decision that declares that this does not violate the establishment clause.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Ender »

For the record, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State announced they support this decision. This is unsurprising though, as they have a case before the SCOTUS now dealing with religious imagery/pontification on government lands. If they win then the controversy from this case evaporates. In which case it would be a good call. Either way, complaining about the decision before going in front of them and asking the court to rule in their favor is a bad call, so I expect backing it was politics.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Keep in mind that this was tried as a Free Speech case, not a "religious establishment" case. All the decision says (and it was unanimous) was that government speech is not regulated by the First Amendment, if what I'm taking from that article is as such (which is probably why it was a unanimous decision, meaning all the "liberals" on the Court got on board as well).

Obviously, there is a conflict here in that the Ten Commandments are a religious monument, but that's a case to be decided on the grounds of whether it constitutes a violation of the Religious Establishment clause, not the Free Speech clause.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Edi »

The decision is correct and Alito's reasoning is sound. Just because he was picked by Bush the Lesser does not render his judgment of this case automatically suspect.

The Summum sect brought in a piss-poor argument because they only focused on the free speech issue and cried that they were being oppressed if their monument was not accepted, but they did NOT make the argument that government acceptance and maintenance of a monument containing religious commandments on public land is an endorsement of that religion.

A court can only rule on the arguments and claims presented to it under normal circumstances, and that is what they did. The Summum should have gone for the two-pronged approach to get this ruling on free speech and the augmentation that would have forced the removal of the Ten Commandments.

Interestingly enough, now this case is a precedent for the one still pending, and Alito's words regarding the government not being able to say some things, such as endorsement of a religion, are sure to be brought up in that case if the lawyers on it have anything in the way of competence.

So this is not nearly as much a setback as it might seem to some on the surface.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Darth Wong »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:This *is* endorsing one over the other.

No surprise, given the recent Bush packing of the court.
How do you figure that? If the city accepts one private gift from a religious organization, is it thereby bound to accept all private gifts from religious organizations lest it endorse one over the other?
What's wrong with that logic? SCOTUS even called it "selective receptivity", which sounds an awful lot like preference to me.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Master of Ossus »

Darth Wong wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:How do you figure that? If the city accepts one private gift from a religious organization, is it thereby bound to accept all private gifts from religious organizations lest it endorse one over the other?
What's wrong with that logic? SCOTUS even called it "selective receptivity", which sounds an awful lot like preference to me.
Because the gifts might be markedly different. Giving someone money to open a soup kitchen is not the same as donating a park which is not the same as donating a religious monument.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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Except that in the case at hand, the gifts were essentially equivalent: big ol' ugly chunks of stuff with some nonsense chiseled into them.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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Kanastrous wrote:Except that in the case at hand, the gifts were essentially equivalent: big ol' ugly chunks of stuff with some nonsense chiseled into them.
So? It was a test case. The holding is broader than that because the issue was bigger than that, which is why the Court didn't have any trouble with it.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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So I would have expected the ruling to have a greater degree of relevance to the actual case before the court. Which I guess is an unrealistic expectation.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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Kanastrous wrote:So I would have expected the ruling to have a greater degree of relevance to the actual case before the court. Which I guess is an unrealistic expectation.
You obviously don't understand how appellate rulings work. Appellate courts like the Supreme Court almost always have to take the facts as a given: they're brought in to resolve issues of law. I haven't read much about this particular case, but to warrant Supreme Court attention there was probably a split between the Circuits on this or else it was a case of first-impression. So the Court was talking about the issue of the law, and not responding to the individual facts brought before it. And, again, this was obviously just a test case, which is engineered to have facts as innocuous as possible so it can sail through the trial courts and make it to the appellate level to resolve the issue of law involved.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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Edi wrote:A court can only rule on the arguments and claims presented to it under normal circumstances, and that is what they did. The Summum should have gone for the two-pronged approach to get this ruling on free speech and the augmentation that would have forced the removal of the Ten Commandments.
Are you sure that this applies to constitutional courts as well?
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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Appeals courts generally rule on whether a given case was decided correctly by a trial court. As such, they are limited to the facts that were given in the trial court. They can either let a decision stand, overturn the decision, or remand it back to a trial court to be redecided. You can't bring up a new argument in an appellate court.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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Beowulf wrote:Appeals courts generally rule on whether a given case was decided correctly by a trial court. As such, they are limited to the facts that were given in the trial court. They can either let a decision stand, overturn the decision, or remand it back to a trial court to be redecided. You can't bring up a new argument in an appellate court.
That are questions of fact. I know very well that an appellate court generally only decides questions of law. My question is whether this does also apply to constitutional courts, as per my experience in European law these have original jurisdiction over questions of constitutional law.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Master of Ossus »

Thanas wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Appeals courts generally rule on whether a given case was decided correctly by a trial court. As such, they are limited to the facts that were given in the trial court. They can either let a decision stand, overturn the decision, or remand it back to a trial court to be redecided. You can't bring up a new argument in an appellate court.
That are questions of fact. I know very well that an appellate court generally only decides questions of law. My question is whether this does also apply to constitutional courts, as per my experience in European law these have original jurisdiction over questions of constitutional law.
I think you have to bring up the constitutional objection at the trial court level, and the have it go up with you to the appellate court. Usually you have to at least make a facial objection to get it on record in order to argue it at an appellate court.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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Master of Ossus wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Appeals courts generally rule on whether a given case was decided correctly by a trial court. As such, they are limited to the facts that were given in the trial court. They can either let a decision stand, overturn the decision, or remand it back to a trial court to be redecided. You can't bring up a new argument in an appellate court.
That are questions of fact. I know very well that an appellate court generally only decides questions of law. My question is whether this does also apply to constitutional courts, as per my experience in European law these have original jurisdiction over questions of constitutional law.
I think you have to bring up the constitutional objection at the trial court level, and the have it go up with you to the appellate court. Usually you have to at least make a facial objection to get it on record in order to argue it at an appellate court.
Or, you may argue for an appeal on the basis that your lawyer was an idiot and forgot a crucial argument.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

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Darth Wong wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:This *is* endorsing one over the other.

No surprise, given the recent Bush packing of the court.
How do you figure that? If the city accepts one private gift from a religious organization, is it thereby bound to accept all private gifts from religious organizations lest it endorse one over the other?
What's wrong with that logic? SCOTUS even called it "selective receptivity", which sounds an awful lot like preference to me.
If the government is going to accept religious gifts and display them, it has to be selective in what it chooses to display, otherwise it could (and most likely will) end up displaying downright offensive monuments, monuments that disagree with government policy or both. This case comes from Utah, so imagine if a Fundamentalist Mormon group sent in a monument celebrating polygamy, the righteous origin of people with lighter skin and the Hebrew origin of Native Americans? Or if the WCOTC folks sent in a monument? As long as the government is allowed to accept religious monuments for public display it has to have discretionary judgment in what it displays. It wouldn't even violate the establishment clause to do so (if displaying religious monuments was considered legal), as a strict reading of Reynolds V. United States shows that while opinions cannot tampered with, certain religious rites and actions can be, and are.

Personally, I don't think the government should be allowed to display any religious monuments publicly. But as long as that's unchallenged (and I can see why the Summum didn't want to challenge that) then the government cannot be denied discretionary power here. Ideally with a public rubric as to what makes something permissible to displayed and what makes something impermissible to be displayed, but discretionary power all the same.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Samuel »

If the government is going to accept religious gifts and display them, it has to be selective in what it chooses to display, otherwise it could (and most likely will) end up displaying downright offensive monuments, monuments that disagree with government policy or both. This case comes from Utah, so imagine if a Fundamentalist Mormon group sent in a monument celebrating polygamy, the righteous origin of people with lighter skin and the Hebrew origin of Native Americans? Or if the WCOTC folks sent in a monument? As long as the government is allowed to accept religious monuments for public display it has to have discretionary judgment in what it displays. It wouldn't even violate the establishment clause to do so (if displaying religious monuments was considered legal), as a strict reading of Reynolds V. United States shows that while opinions cannot tampered with, certain religious rites and actions can be, and are.

Personally, I don't think the government should be allowed to display any religious monuments publicly. But as long as that's unchallenged (and I can see why the Summum didn't want to challenge that) then the government cannot be denied discretionary power here. Ideally with a public rubric as to what makes something permissible to displayed and what makes something impermissible to be displayed, but discretionary power all the same.
Except you could refuse to display them because the are hate speech. To the best of my knowledge, this group is new ager, not racist.
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Re: SCOTUS: Gov't not required to honor all faiths equally

Post by Kanastrous »

Calling something 'religious expression' does not immunize it from removal if it's hateful or incitement any more than yelling 'fire!' in a crowded theater is protected expression if you're lying to start a panic.
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