Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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From cnn.com

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/ ... newssearch
MEXICO CITY, Mexico (CNN) -- Ciudad Juarez was converted into a fortress as members of President Felipe Calderon's security cabinet met Wednesday in the border town to devise a strategy to combat narcotraffickers.
Mexican police carry a body after a clash with gangs that left 21 dead in the state of Chihuahua on February 10.

Mexican police carry a body after a clash with gangs that left 21 dead in the state of Chihuahua on February 10.

Ciudad Juarez, across the U.S. border from El Paso, Texas, is one of the most violent cities in Mexico, with the vast majority of the violence tied to drug trafficking.

The secretary of the interior, Fernando Gomez Mont, who attended the meeting, said the city remains under government control and promised greater cooperation between federal and local authorities.

"Not a centimeter of the plaza will be ceded to them, and we are going to expel them from Juarez," he vowed, referring to the narcotraffickers.

"That is the gist of our promise and in that we put our word."

But last week, the chief of police was obliged to quit, after threats from organized crime to kill a policeman every day that he remained on the job.

A day later, the mayor was threatened with death.
Don't Miss

* Drug violence spins Mexico toward 'civil war'
* 5 dead in Mexico border town violence
* Official: Mexican drug turf wars have led to surge in violence
* Arrests 'crushing blow' to Mexican drug cartel, U.S. officials say

Leo Zuckerman, a security expert who visited Juarez on Friday, disagreed with Gomez's view.

"I can assure you that what we are seeing is the loss of control of the state on the society," he said.

"It is organized crime that is governing Ciudad Juarez; they had the ability to force out the chief of police." Video Watch how the violence is affecting the United States »

Some opposition legislators and even the mayor have asked Mexican federal authorities for more help.
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The violence generated by the war of the drug cartels for control of drug routes translated last year into some 6,000 killings. More than 1,200 of them occurred in Ciudad Juarez alone.

During the meeting of the security cabinet, soldiers discovered an explosive at the airport, authorities said.
Earlier the police chief resigned:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/ ... newssearch
JUAREZ, Mexico (CNN) -- The mayor of Juarez announced Friday that the city's police chief is stepping down after receiving death threats from local drug cartels.

Police Chief Robert Orduna's resignation also came in response to the deaths of other police, Mayor Jose Reyes Ferriz told reporters.

"The police chief has resigned, saying he did not want to be responsible for any more police dying," Reyes said.

But observers should not interpret the resignation as a capitulation to narcotraffickers, he said. Video Watch CNN's Michael Ware discuss police chief's departure »

"We have not blinked," Reyes said. "We will continue to fight organized crime... he has done a good job, but we will find someone else."
Don't Miss

* Official: Drug turf wars lead to surge in violence
* Drug violence spins Mexico toward 'civil war'

The change in command in Juarez's police force comes in the wake of a campaign of intimidation by a drug cartel that has the border city in its grip.

Federal police and local police have locked down much of Juarez, which lies across the border from El Paso, Texas. It serves as a major transit point for the smuggling of cocaine, marijuana and methamphetamine into the United States.

Orduna, who replaced half of the 1,600-person police force with new recruits in a bid to rid it of corrupt members, tendered his resignation to protect the men who serve him, Reyes told reporters.

"They started killing police officers when they were going home or getting into police cars," he said.

The police director of operations was gunned down on Tuesday in his car. Another police officer and a prison guard were found dead Friday morning as part of a campaign of intimidation against government forces blamed on the cartels.

Last year, more than 100 police were killed in Juarez in attacks blamed on organized crime.

On Friday, the U.S. State Department renewed a travel alert for Americans considering a visit to Mexico.

"The situation in Ciudad Juarez is of special concern," it said. "Mexican authorities report that more than 1,800 people have been killed in the city since January 2008. Additionally, this city of 1.6 million people experienced more than 17,000 car thefts and 1,650 carjackings in 2008."
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Drug-related violence in Mexico has continued unabated since December 2006, when President Felipe Calderon took power and launched an offensive against the cartels.

Last year, drug violence was blamed for the deaths of 78 Mexican soldiers and more than 6,000 civilians.
I just watched a segment about this on the Anderson Cooper show. Frankly, this doesn't seem like its going to get any better any time soon.

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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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It's still not as scary as the drug gangs in Brazil which actually attacked an army base.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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Darth Wong wrote:It's still not as scary as the drug gangs in Brazil which actually attacked an army base.
And got slaughtered like the animals they are, right? :)
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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Darth Wong wrote:It's still not as scary as the drug gangs in Brazil which actually attacked an army base.
No, but maybe this is, as far as civilian population is concerned:
The Guardian wrote: Revellers killed in grenade attack on Mexican independence celebrations

* Jo Tuckman
* guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 16 September 2008 16.47 BST
* Article history

At least eight people have been killed in a grenade attack on a crowd celebrating Mexican independence in the city of Morelia.

The attack, in which dozens were injured, could signal a new stage in the country's already vicious drug wars.

Two explosions ripped through the crowd of around 30,000 people minutes after they listened to the local governor giving the traditional Grito, or cry of independence.

The authorities did not immediately identify who they thought was to blame, but many observers assumed the involvement of Mexico's drug cartels.

While the country's various leftwing guerrilla groups traditionally shy away from killings, the cartels are deeply immersed in inter-gang wars for the control of trafficking routes, local markets and production.

They are also battling against a nationwide military-led offensive, aimed at reining them in, which began in Michoacan, the central state, of which Morelia is the capital, almost two years ago.

Launched by the president, Felipe Calderon, who comes from Michoacan, the offensive has so far made the violence worse with close to 3,000 people having been killed in drug-related violence so far this year.

Last Friday, 24 bodies were found dumped close to the capital less than two weeks after 12 decapitated bodies were found near the normally tranquil southern city of Merida.

Nevertheless last night's attack on a crowd of families, many of them with small children, would be a major scaling up of the traffickers' challenge to the government. They have so far focused on attacking rivals or members of the security forces.

A decision to attack the Morelia festivities would be about as charged a message as it would be possible to send in deeply nationalistic Mexico, where similar celebrations take place in the main squares of every city and town.

As the grenades were exploding in his home state, Calderon was watching the fireworks over the capital's Zocalo plaza.

He used his speech at the start of yesterday's military parade through the capital, another tradition that took place under heightened emergency security measures this year, to condemn the attackers as "cowards" and "traitors."

Calling for unity across the ideological spectrum he added: "These criminals are condemned to fail because they will have all of Mexico against them."
This happened last year, not far from where I live. Hell, I could have been standing there, going to the Grito was actually an option I was considering.

As if that weren't enough, a couple of weeks ago, this other thing happened, in the city where I work, no less:
pr-inside.com wrote:Grenade attack wounds 1 cop, 5 civilians in Mexico
© AP
2009-02-13 06:07:01 -

URUAPAN, Mexico (AP) - Police say assailants hurled a fragmentation grenade at a police patrol in western Mexico, injuring one officer and five civilians.
Police say the attackers threw the grenade from a speeding motorcycle in Uruapan, a city a Michoacan state.
The policeman and two bystanders were seriously wounded in Thursday's attack. The three others had
minor injuries.
Violence has soared and grown more brutal in Mexico as drug gangs battle each other for territory and intensify attacks on police.
Civilians are often caught in the crossfire. A toddler was killed in northern Ciudad Juarez on Thursday when gunmen opened fire on the car she was riding in.

President Calderon says drug violence claimed at least 6,000 lives last year.
Oh, but Uruapenses weren't all that shocked, since they had seen this other interesting thing last year:
NY Times wrote:URUAPAN, Mexico — Norteño music was blaring at the Sol y Sombra bar on Sept. 6 when several men in military garb broke up the late night party. Waving high-powered machine guns, they screamed at the crowd to stay put and then dumped the contents of a heavy plastic bag on the dance floor.

The New York Times

Few of the drug-related killings in Uruapan have been solved.

Five human heads rolled to a bloody stop.

“This is not something you see every day,” said a bartender, who asked not to be named for fear of losing his own head. “Very ugly.”

An underworld war between drug gangs is raging in Mexico, medieval in its barbarity, its foot soldiers operating with little fear of interference from the police, its scope and brutality unprecedented, even in a country accustomed to high levels of drug violence.

In recent months the violence has included a total of two dozen beheadings, a raid on a local police station by men with grenades and a bazooka, and daytime kidnappings of top law enforcement officials. At least 123 law enforcement officials, among them 2 judges and 3 prosecutors, have been gunned down or tortured to death. Five police officers were among those beheaded.

In all, the violence has claimed more than 1,700 civilian lives this year, and federal officials say the killings are on course to top the estimated 1,800 underworld killings last year. Those death tolls compare with 1,304 in 2004 and 1,080 in 2001, these officials say.
On top of all, though a tad exaggerated, there's this other matter:
The Guardian wrote: Mexico is in free fall

With cartels taking over cities and killing all anti-drug officials, the country is crying out for help – but is unlikely to get it from the US

o David Rieff
o guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 25 February 2009 22.00 GMT
o Article history

Shortly before the US elections last November, then vice-presidential candidate Joe Biden was widely criticised for predicting that an Obama administration would almost certainly be tested by what he called a "generated" international crisis, in much the way that the Soviet Union "tested" John F Kennedy shortly after he assumed office. Biden did not point to a specific region of the world, but mentioned the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent and Russia as the likeliest sources of trouble for the new president.

Impolitic or not, Biden's anxieties seem to have informed several of the administration's early foreign policy decisions. These include his own extension of an olive branch to Russia at the recent Munich security conference, and Barack Obama's appointment of Richard Holbrooke as special envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan – and of George Mitchell to a similar post for Israel-Palestine.

But, as pressing as the Middle East, south Asia, and Russia (as well as Iran and North Korea) are, another crisis far closer to home could create as much peril as a nuclear-armed Iran, an aggressively resurgent Russia, or even an Islamist-dominated Pakistan.

That crisis is located in Mexico, which is in free fall, its state institutions under threat as they have not been since at least the Cristero uprising of the late 1920s and possibly since the Mexican revolution of 1910. While the Obama administration is obviously aware of what is happening south of the Rio Grande, the threat simply does not command the attention that its gravity requires.

The crisis consists in nothing less than an effort by the major drug cartels to tame and suborn the Mexican state, and not just in the strip along the US border, though the epicentre of the crisis is there. Obviously, the cartels' leaders do not have designs on Mexico's presidential palace. But, through a policy of terror extending from Oaxaca in the south, through Acapulco on the Pacific coast, and up to the great border cities of Tijuana and Juarez (Mexico's sixth and seventh most populous cities, respectively), they have made it abundantly clear that they are trying to achieve impunity.

The only recent parallel in Latin America was a similar effort 15 years ago by the Colombian drug cartels. That disguised coup failed – barely – and there is no guarantee that the result will be similar this time around in Mexico.

Journalists with long experience of war zones report being more worried about their safety in Mexico border than when they were in Bosnia, Afghanistan, or Iraq, though much of the violence is internecine. Of the thousands who have been killed, often after being horribly tortured, many, if not most, have been members of the drug cartels and their families.

But it is the campaign of targeted assassination against any Mexican official who seems to pose a serious threat to the cartels' operations that makes the crisis so dire. First, in May 2007, the cartels killed Jose Nemesio Lugo Felix, the general co-ordinator of information at the national centre for planning and analysis to combat organised crime. Soon after, a hitman murdered Edgar Milan Gomez, Mexico's highest ranking federal police official.

In November, 2008, a plane carrying Juan Camilo Mourino, Mexico's national security adviser, crashed under mysterious circumstances. And very recently, the retired General Mauro Enrique Tello Quinones, one of the most decorated officers in the Mexican army, was abducted, tortured, and killed less than a week after assuming a new position as anti-drug chief in the resort city of Cancún.

For all the lip service paid to relations with Mexico (and, indeed, with Latin America more generally) from Franklin D Roosevelt to Obama, the truth is that developments in Mexico have always had short shrift from US presidents. Illegal immigration is a major issue, to be sure, as is the drug trade. But the US government has always regarded them as domestic American issues rather than as crucial foreign policy concerns.

It is emblematic that while Obama has received Mexican President Felipe Calderón, the White House only recently announced that one of his first foreign trips would be to Mexico. And incoming secretary of state Hillary Clinton was asked almost nothing about Mexico at her confirmation hearing, and she emphasised relations with Mexico neither in her own statement nor in those she has made since assuming her post.

Indeed, the conventional wisdom in the US is that Mexico policy regarding illegal immigration and drugs will be the province of the new homeland security secretary, Janet Napolitano (herself a former border state governor). Meanwhile, the treasury and commerce departments will be handle trade policy concerning Nafta, the North American Free Trade Agreement.

This is the way Mexico policy has been run for decades. And, offensive as this has been to Mexican sensibilities – and harmful to finding long-term solutions to America's immigration dilemma – these complacent arrangements have never presented so clear and present danger as they do today.
Good thing they at least have certified the Mexican government for proving they're really trying to fight drug trafficking. Phew.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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Stark wrote:I know you're a simpleminded guy, but not everything described as 'army base' is the same.
Yeah, but it isn't like we're talking about an army base with 18th-century POS gear that would struggle to deal with a wave of idiots with small arms and petrol bombs...
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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Darth Wong wrote:It's still not as scary as the drug gangs in Brazil which actually attacked an army base.
It should be. Mexico already has to deploy it army on the streets to try to control day to day violence even before this surge in open fighting, in some towns the army is the only law enforcement that even tries to exist. Brazil meanwhile only needs to deploy troops on occasions, and while it’s messy for the most part the police can combat the gangs. They can’t wipe them out, but you can hardly expect to have 2 million person slums with almost no roads and not have them filled with gangs. If things keep going the way they are going in Mexico, were going to start seeing the Mexicans start to use heavier weapons, and parts of the country will start looking like Iraq. Assuming the drug gangs don’t just bribe the troops, which they already do on a large scale.

Ciudad Juarez has something like 7,000 army troops in it already; another 5,000 are on the way. That's a whole division; well have to wait and see if it does anything.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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How realistic is it at this point to believe that we could knock the props out from under the Mexican drug cartels by decriminalizing and regulating their products?

Can that be expected to turn the field over to legitimate business, or is it more likely that the cartels will just reincorporate as legal entities?
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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Kanastrous wrote:How realistic is it at this point to believe that we could knock the props out from under the Mexican drug cartels by decriminalizing and regulating their products?

Can that be expected to turn the field over to legitimate business, or is it more likely that the cartels will just reincorporate as legal entities?
Can't have your cake and eat it too. People will use the drugs, and there won't be a damned thing you can do about it at that point.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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I am not particularly interested in whether or not people use the drugs; people are using the drugs right now despite billions of dollars' expenditure on DEA hardware and personnel.

Since there appears to a choice between people using drugs coupled to all of the waste and damage done by the 'War on Drugs,' and people using drugs without the waste and damage done by the 'War on Drugs,' the question is whether decriminalization of possession, distribution and responsible use would be of any use in removing the revenue stream and influence of the narco-syndicates.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's still not as scary as the drug gangs in Brazil which actually attacked an army base.
It should be. Mexico already has to deploy it army on the streets to try to control day to day violence even before this surge in open fighting, in some towns the army is the only law enforcement that even tries to exist. Brazil meanwhile only needs to deploy troops on occasions, and while it’s messy for the most part the police can combat the gangs. They can’t wipe them out, but you can hardly expect to have 2 million person slums with almost no roads and not have them filled with gangs. If things keep going the way they are going in Mexico, were going to start seeing the Mexicans start to use heavier weapons, and parts of the country will start looking like Iraq. Assuming the drug gangs don’t just bribe the troops, which they already do on a large scale.

Ciudad Juarez has something like 7,000 army troops in it already; another 5,000 are on the way. That's a whole division; well have to wait and see if it does anything.
Point taken; I have apparently underestimated the severity of the problem. Does the US have any plans to help? It seems like this will inevitably spill over the border if it continues to worsen, so it would appear to be in their own best interests.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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Darth Wong wrote:Does the US have any plans to help? It seems like this will inevitably spill over the border if it continues to worsen, so it would appear to be in their own best interests.
It's already started:
Mexican Drug Violence Spills Over Into US

ALICIA A. CALDWELL | February 9, 2009 05:39 PM EST | AP

Just as government officials had feared, the drug violence raging in Mexico is spilling over into the United States.

U.S. authorities are reporting a spike in killings, kidnappings and home invasions connected to Mexico's murderous cartels. And to some policymakers' surprise, much of the violence is happening not in towns along the border, where it was assumed the bloodshed would spread, but a considerable distance away, in places such as Phoenix and Atlanta.


Investigators fear the violence could erupt elsewhere around the country because the Mexican cartels are believed to have set up drug-dealing operations all over the U.S., in such far-flung places as Anchorage, Alaska; Boston; and Sioux Falls, S.D.

"The violence follows the drugs," said David Cuthbertson, agent in charge of the FBI's office in the border city of El Paso, Texas.

The violence takes many forms: Drug customers who owe money are kidnapped until they pay up. Cartel employees who don't deliver the goods or turn over the profits are disciplined through beatings, kidnappings or worse. And drug smugglers kidnap illegal immigrants in clashes with human smugglers over the use of secret routes from Mexico.

So far, the violence is nowhere near as grisly as the mayhem in Mexico, which has witnessed beheadings, assassinations of police officers and soldiers, and mass killings in which the bodies were arranged to send a message. But law enforcement officials worry the violence on this side could escalate.

"They are capable of doing about anything," said Rusty Payne, a Drug Enforcement Administration spokesman in Washington. "When you are willing to chop heads off, put them in an ice chest and drop them off at a police precinct, or roll a head into a disco, put beheadings on YouTube as a warning," very little is off limits.

In an apartment near Birmingham, Ala., police found five men with their throats slit in August. They had apparently been tortured with electric shocks before being killed in a murder-for-hire orchestrated by a Mexican drug organization over a drug debt of about $400,000.

In Phoenix, 150 miles north of the Mexican border, police have reported a sharp increase in kidnappings and home invasions, with about 350 each year for the last two years, and say the majority were committed at the behest of the Mexican drug gangs.

In June, heavily armed men stormed a Phoenix house and fired randomly, killing one person. Police believe it was the work of Mexican drug organizations.

Authorities in Atlanta are also seeing an increase in drug-related kidnappings tied to Mexican cartels. Estimates of how many such crimes are being committed are hard to come by because many victims are connected to the cartels and unwilling to go to the police, said Rodney G. Benson, DEA agent in charge in Atlanta.

Agents said they have rarely seen such brutality in the U.S. since the "Miami Vice" years of the 1980s, when Colombian cartels had the corner on the cocaine market in Florida.

Last summer, Atlanta-area police found a Dominican man who had been beaten, bound, gagged and chained to a wall in a quiet, middle-class neighborhood in Lilburn, Ga. The 31-year-old Rhode Island resident owed $300,000 to Mexico's Gulf Cartel, Benson said. The Gulf Cartel, based in Matamoros just south of the Texas border, is one of the most ruthless of the Mexican organizations that deal drugs such as cocaine, marijuana, methamphetamine and heroin.

"He was shackled to a wall and one suspect had an AK-47. The guy was in bad shape," Benson said. "I have no doubt in my mind if that ransom wasn't paid, he was going to be killed."

In July, Atlanta-area police shot and killed a suspected kidnapper while he was trying to pick up a $2 million ransom owed to his cartel bosses, Benson said.

State and federal governments have sent millions of dollars to local law enforcement along the Mexican border to help fend off spillover drug crime. But investigators believe Arizona and Atlanta are seeing the worst of the violence because they are major drug distribution hubs thanks to their webs of interstate highways.

In fact, drug officials have dubbed Atlanta "the new Southwest border," said Jack Killorin, a former federal drug agent and director of the Atlanta region's High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area task force.

El Paso, population 600,000, is only a quarter-mile away from Mexico's Ciudad Juarez, which has seen open gun battles and 1,700 murders in the last year. But El Paso remains one of America's safest cities, something Cuthbertson said is probably a result of the huge law enforcement presence in town, including thousands of Border Patrol and customs agents.

In the past year, more than 5,000 people have been killed across Mexico in a power struggle among Mexico's drug cartels and ferocious fighting between them and the Mexican government. The cartels have established operations in at least 230 U.S. cities, according to the Justice Department's National Drug Intelligence Center.

Payne said the U.S. and Mexico are working together to pressure the warring cartels. Payne cited the extradition of high-level drug suspects _ four members of the Arellano Felix cartel in Tijuana were brought to the U.S. in December _ and the capture or killings of several other top cartel leaders across Mexico in the past year.

"We have to make sure that we attack these criminal organizations at every level so that we are safer not only in Mexico and on the Southwest border, but here in the rest of the country," Payne said.

While some Americans may feel victimized by the spillover of violence, others are contributing to it. Americans provide 95 percent of the weapons used by the cartel, according to U.S. authorities. And Americans are the cartels' best customers, sending an estimated $28.5 billion in drug-sale proceeds across the Mexico border each year.
I have family near the border (on both sides), not far from the city of Eagle Pass mentioned earlier. I haven't heard from them in years, but I hope they've all left.

Anyway, one way or the other we are contributing to this problem. It's past item to get involved and attempt to alleviate it. If that means decriminalization, so be it. People here doing lines of coke are fueling the bloodshed.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

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Darth Wong wrote: Point taken; I have apparently underestimated the severity of the problem. Does the US have any plans to help? It seems like this will inevitably spill over the border if it continues to worsen, so it would appear to be in their own best interests.
It already has spilled over the boarder in a large scale; the gangs are aggressively trying to kill of each others operations in the US south west now. US law enforcement is putting on a pretty huge show of force in response, no idea if it’s working or not. The US does have lots of contingency plans, but right now we are not intending to get our personal involved in Mexico in any way. I’m sure the FBI/DEA and other agencies are already offering all the indirect intelligence and training support they can.

The reason to limit US involvement is pretty simple, it will make things worse. Mexico has always had a weak government, now the gangs have realized just how weak it is. The only response can be raw force from the government, to make the gangs know whose in charge even if they cannot be destroyed. If the US became involved on the ground, that’d make Mexico’s government look even weaker and then nationalism would begin to swing to the gang’s side as well.

So the US won’t get involved unless Mexico actually starts falling apart or has exhausted all options for additional military deployments. Right now that’s a long way from happening, many months or even years even if these trends of increasing violence continue. The Mexicans have around 200,000 army personal on active duty, and could call up 300,000 reserves if shit really hit the fan, abet by that point a large number would be unlikely to show up. Of course a huge portion of those troops are support troops, but every warm body counts when your fighting to stave off a civil war. But in the end, its all about how much the people will support the government.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by Coyote »

I have a feeling that the economic downturn is having some states (California, primarily) consider legalizing marijuana for the tax revenue it would create. If so, it would remove at least one pillar of support from the narcos.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by Darth Wong »

It seems to me that the drug gangs are much more dangerous than Al Capone's gangs ever were. Al Capone bought off cops and judges and assassinated his rivals, but he never created the kind of mayhem that these modern drug gangs create. Yet we all agree that it was good to repeal Prohibition even as there is such stubborn resistance to the idea of legalizing other drugs. Is there some kind of mental block at work here?
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Darth Wong wrote:It seems to me that the drug gangs are much more dangerous than Al Capone's gangs ever were. Al Capone bought off cops and judges and assassinated his rivals, but he never created the kind of mayhem that these modern drug gangs create. Yet we all agree that it was good to repeal Prohibition even as there is such stubborn resistance to the idea of legalizing other drugs. Is there some kind of mental block at work here?
I think we've seen an example of that mental block in this thread. The idea that if we change things then we're admitting defeat.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by bobalot »

Legalizing something like cannabis is one thing, but legalizing meth? cocaine?

Hard drugs literally rewires the way your brain works. You lose the ability to make rational judgments. It doesn't take a lot to get hooked either. Legalizing this stuff would create a whole shitload of other problems.

Although, it seems Mexico is descending into total anarchy with the current approach.

Fucked up situation.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

bobalot wrote:Legalizing something like cannabis is one thing, but legalizing meth? cocaine?

Hard drugs literally rewires the way your brain works. You lose the ability to make rational judgments. It doesn't take a lot to get hooked either. Legalizing this stuff would create a whole shitload of other problems.

Although, it seems Mexico is descending into total anarchy with the current approach.

Fucked up situation.
Well, I'm not necessarily for legalizing hard drugs. Though that might be the only way to completely destroy the drug cartels. Millions of americans smoke, and smoking kills. With the legalization of all drugs the only thing that will actually change is the drug cartels will die, and new tax revenue will be generated to fund programs to combat the consequences of drug use.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by Akkleptos »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Mexico has always had a weak government, now the gangs have realized just how weak it is. The only response can be raw force from the government, to make the gangs know whose in charge even if they cannot be destroyed. If the US became involved on the ground, that’d make Mexico’s government look even weaker and then nationalism would begin to swing to the gang’s side as well.
Actually, the Mexican government used to be incredibly strong and monolythic, with the president being a nigh-omnipotent figure. The PRI (Institutional Revolutionary Party) ruled everything with an iron fist for almost 70 years. It was fiercely authoritative, anti-communistic but also anti-clergy. It kept all the sectors, down to and including organised crime in check (which had to pay "tribute" and "participation" to the government, especially with the president being the de facto ultimate head of all syndicates), and its highly centralised and rigid structure severely disciplined anyone trying to go around its dictates.

It was only until the 90s, when presidential power began to wane, favouring the advent of true democracy in a perestroika of sorts, that the different factions (including criminal organisations) began to barter -and later openly fight- for control of huge parcels of power. Political assassinations and drug-related violence began to become commonplace during that decade. On 2000, with the first president not coming from the PRI ranks in 70 years took office, all hell began to break lose. It is said that president Fox refused to renew the deals and ties with the main drug cartels, and since then, it's been an ever-increasingly bloody war.

One big problem is severely disfunctional and inefficient law enforcement and judicial power; from very underpaid, poorly-trained, worse-equipped police officers all the way up to extremely corrupt judges, politicians in high office, etc. With an impunity rate of over 98% (for real criminals who actually know what they're doing -the average Pepe still gets caught if he decides to shoot his compadre in a bar brawl), organised crime has been having a field day since they decided to go their own way.

However, any kind of hands-on help offered by the US has been -and will probably still be- met with scepticism and reluctance, when not outright hostility. Mexico is very zealous when it comes to its official policy of non-interventionism, and armed foreign forces in its territory would only bring about resentment -the 19th century's American and French invasions are still fresh in Mexicans' historical memory. So, aid and support are always appreciated. On-the-ground involvement, especially the armed kind? Not likely to happen.
Ryan Thunder wrote:Legalizing narcotics is allowing your efforts to be foiled by organized crime. That is an unacceptable embarassment.
It's actually the best -or least bad- option. There is just no stopping the flow to such an incredibly rich and vast market. Even if it were possible to obliterate all of the Latin American drug cartels to the last man, other criminal organisations would quickly move in to fill in the void and cash in on the profit of a market that's not going to go away.

Why is it so profitable? Since they're dealing in illegal goods, they get to set the huge overprices that pay for all of their infrastructure. But if now-illegal drugs were legalised, there would be little incentive to spend so much money, so much manpower, on distributing a product that would be essentially as cheap as aspirin. Besides, even the addicts themselves would be better off buying their fix from clean, well-known state-controlled or state-supervised outlets than from gang members, or otherwise shady sources.

It's pure and simple market law. The example I use when I try explaining this to the intellectually-obtuse goes like this: if you have a sink full of water, how do you best try to keep the water from going down the drain? By swating it away from the drainhole with your hands, or by blocking the drainhole itself? In reality, both solutions to the drug problem (eliminating the source, or eliminating the market) are extremely difficult, but eliminating the sources, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread has certainly proven an utter failure for decades already. That's why the other solution is worth checking out: eliminating the appeal of drug trafficking, which is the illegal, tax-free profit.
Lusankya wrote:If you legalise them, you also have the ability to set production standards. Meaning less people are hurt through spiked drugs or misjudging their dosage. It also means that people are more likely to call for help when they do get hurt.

And, as salm said, you can put the tax money into programs that make drugs uncool.
Of course, these are some very welcome added benefits of legalisation.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by bobalot »

Lusankya wrote:
bobalot wrote:Legalizing something like cannabis is one thing, but legalizing meth? cocaine?

Hard drugs literally rewires the way your brain works. You lose the ability to make rational judgments. It doesn't take a lot to get hooked either. Legalizing this stuff would create a whole shitload of other problems.

Although, it seems Mexico is descending into total anarchy with the current approach.

Fucked up situation.
If you legalise them, you also have the ability to set production standards. Meaning less people are hurt through spiked drugs or misjudging their dosage. It also means that people are more likely to call for help when they do get hurt.

And, as salm said, you can put the tax money into programs that make drugs uncool.
No matter production standards you have, it alters your brain, often irreversibly. It's the fundamental nature of these hard drugs. They are really fucking bad for you. I don't understand why so many people use it. I can see despair, a fucked up childhood or something like that leading people down that road, but the shear numbers of everyday people into this stuff is fucking amazing.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by Lusankya »

bobalot wrote:No matter production standards you have, it alters your brain, often irreversibly. It's the fundamental nature of these hard drugs. They are really fucking bad for you. I don't understand why so many people use it. I can see despair, a fucked up childhood or something like that leading people down that road, but the shear numbers of everyday people into this stuff is fucking amazing.
It depends on how much usage would change if they were legalised. Naturally, if usage increased dramatically upon decriminalisation, then legalisation would be bad, but if drug usage was largely unchanged, then legalisation would be a net benefit, due to the factors I just mentioned (and others, I presume). It's the same reason that prohibition was repealed: the social cost of criminalising the consumption of alcohol was greater than the societal cost of consuming alcohol.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by Sea Skimmer »

bobalot wrote: No matter production standards you have, it alters your brain, often irreversibly. It's the fundamental nature of these hard drugs. They are really fucking bad for you. I don't understand why so many people use it. I can see despair, a fucked up childhood or something like that leading people down that road, but the shear numbers of everyday people into this stuff is fucking amazing.
Remember perfectly legal alcohol can do that too, in fact alcohol is one of very few recreational drugs in which withdrawal symptoms actually present a serious risk of death. Hard drugs are certainly very dangerous, but this is not a matter of legalize or not, we could keep those especially dangerous drugs illegal but simply no pursue the war on drugs as well.. a war with all the mess that causes. Stuff like pot though, it’s just impossible to justify it being illegal when smoking and drinking are not. The only reason its ever became illegal was because of race baiting against Mexicans.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

I think the problematic mindset here, is that somehow the bad effects of the drugs is somehow WORSE than the bad effects of the drugs with the criminality piled on top.
bobalot, making drugs legal will not make them any less harmful, BUT it will remove the blazing gun battles that result from the funding of criminal gangs.
It will also introduce a level of oversight not possible with the black market. It is currently easier for a 16 year old to get pot or meth if he has the money than it is for him to buy booze or ciggies. You have to show ID to buy those somewhere, and you don't for pot or meth. Going down to the local store and buying the legal things doesn't carry the same risk of death. Rite Aid is safer to shop than thugmart.
Get it out of your head that this problem can be solved by the present system. When Johnson and Johnson sells coke at Wallmart the thugs cash will dry up! That, and the taxes collected can do some real good. There will be DUIs and domestic violence, but that's different from the way it is now.... er, ummm?
Hmmmmmm.

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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by bobalot »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
bobalot wrote: No matter production standards you have, it alters your brain, often irreversibly. It's the fundamental nature of these hard drugs. They are really fucking bad for you. I don't understand why so many people use it. I can see despair, a fucked up childhood or something like that leading people down that road, but the shear numbers of everyday people into this stuff is fucking amazing.
Remember perfectly legal alcohol can do that too, in fact alcohol is one of very few recreational drugs in which withdrawal symptoms actually present a serious risk of death. Hard drugs are certainly very dangerous, but this is not a matter of legalize or not, we could keep those especially dangerous drugs illegal but simply no pursue the war on drugs as well.. a war with all the mess that causes. Stuff like pot though, it’s just impossible to justify it being illegal when smoking and drinking are not. The only reason its ever became illegal was because of race baiting against Mexicans.
I agree with you about cannabis, there is no reason for it to be illegal.

For alcohol, you have to drink a lot of alcohol on a regular basis for it to get that bad. Where as with hard drugs, it is usually quite rapid. With alcohol or smoking friends or relatives can encourage you to stop or help you into a program (or something like that). The rapidity of getting fucked up by drugs is the only problem I have with legalizing the stuff. It doesn't give a lot of room for intervention (direct through friends & family and indirect like anti-smoking adverts).

After reading the points articulated in this thread, I'm starting to agree that legalizing and regulating drugs is the better alternative.

On another tangent, lets say drugs were legalized. Would it be feasible to propose taxes on them? I know it the U.S, you guys got that anti-tax crusade going. I imagine that cigarette companies were pretty good at lobbying against such "sin" taxes.
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Re: Trouble in Juarez, Mexico

Post by Sea Skimmer »

bobalot wrote:
I agree with you about cannabis, there is no reason for it to be illegal.

For alcohol, you have to drink a lot of alcohol on a regular basis for it to get that bad. Where as with hard drugs, it is usually quite rapid.
Actually most hard drugs take years to build a physical addiction which would cause dangerous withdrawal, if they are capable of producing such an addiction at all. Even after ten years of regular use the vast majority of people will not by physically addicted to coke for example, but details are very drug specific. Psychological addiction starts much easier, but as has been pointed out many a time, anything pleasurable can build psychological addiction. This is not to say they are by any means safe, but the dangers of addiction tend to be portrayed in a very distorted manner. And of course, if we count DUI deaths against alcohol, which we damn well should, then it kills more people then all illegal drugs put together and then some. In fact it kills more then all illegal drugs and the War in Iraq did at its worst put together in terms of US deaths.

With alcohol or smoking friends or relatives can encourage you to stop or help you into a program (or something like that). The rapidity of getting fucked up by drugs is the only problem I have with legalizing the stuff. It doesn't give a lot of room for intervention (direct through friends & family and indirect like anti-smoking adverts).
The fact that alcohol and smoking don’t produce immediate deter mental effects is half the damn problem with them, and it makes it VERY FUCKING HARD to get people to stop using them. I have more then a slight bit of personal experience trying to get people to quit both and its just a bitch and a half because they can always say ‘well one more wont hurt’ and its basically true.

Also, if drugs are legal, they are in the open, which means more discussion, more education and more awareness of who is using them.

On another tangent, lets say drugs were legalized. Would it be feasible to propose taxes on them? I know it the U.S, you guys got that anti-tax crusade going. I imagine that cigarette companies were pretty good at lobbying against such "sin" taxes.
Of course you could tax them, and very easily too because most illegal drug are absurdly cheap to produce. You could tax a mere gram of pot 10 dollars, have retailers sell it for 20 dollars, and the growers and sellers would still be making a profit, and the user wouldn’t be seeing a price increase. People still would sell untaxed drugs illegally, but people smuggle cigarettes and alcohol in the modern day for the same reason already and it’s just not that serious an issue. We can arrest those people and fine them for tax evasion with far less effort then its required to go after today’s completely underground illegal distribution networks.

What’s more, by legalizing sales, not only do we tax the sales themselves, but we can then tax the money sellers gain as income tax too. People wont be so willing to hide drug money if they can just openly declare it and be done with it.
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