Malaysia to restore 'Allah' ban for Christians

[ray245]

Yahoo!

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia – The Malaysian government will issue a new decree restoring a ban on Christian publications using the word "Allah" to refer to God, officials said Sunday.

Home Affairs Minister Syed Hamid Albar said a previous Feb. 16 decree that allowed Christian publications to use the word as long as they specified the material was not for Muslims was a mistake, the national Bernama news agency reported.

The about-turn came after Islamic groups slammed the government and warned that even conditional use of the word by Christians would anger Muslims, who make up the country's majority.

A senior ministry official confirmed Syed Hamid's comments, saying there were "interpretation mistakes" in the Feb. 16 decree that led to the confusion.

"'Allah' cannot be used for other religions except Islam because it might confuse Muslims. This is the ministry's stand and it hasn't changed," the official, who declined to be named citing protocol, told The Associated Press.

The official said the ministry was likely to issue a new decree to annul the old one and effectively re-impose the ban.

The dispute has become symbolic of increasing religious tensions in Malaysia, where 60 percent of the 27 million people are Muslim Malays. A third of the population is ethnic Chinese and Indian, and many of them practice Christianity.

Malaysia's minorities have often complained that their constitutional right to practice their religions freely has come under threat from the Malay Muslim-dominated government. They cite destruction of Hindu temples and conversion disputes as examples. The government denies any discrimination.

The Herald, the Roman Catholic Church's main newspaper in the country, had filed a legal suit to challenge the government ban on non-Muslims using the word.

The Herald argued that the Arabic word is a common reference for God that predates Islam and has been used for centuries as a translation in Malay.

Rev. Lawrence Andrew, the editor of the Herald, said Sunday the publication had not been notified of the government's change in policy.

"Unfortunately the apparent relief that we imagined we were able to enjoy has been short-lived," he said.

I mean come on! The word 'Allah' isn't a Malay word to begin with, with the additional fact that both Christianity and Islam basically worshiped the same god, I fail to see the reason why must the Malaysian government continue to act like a child.

Well, when you have a government that basically supports the idea of racial discrimination so openly, I'm not really surprise.

[Samuel]

No, the bad part is how are they going to enforce it? Are they going to require the religion of authors to be stated whenever they write something? Is it going to be code so that you know wheter a person is a Muslim or not by their writing?

[Rye]

...but Allah is just a contraction of Al Ilah... the God. It's not a distinct name or concept.

This is a God-sized facepalm.

[Kanastrous]

I guess the next time a Muslim suggests to me that the God of Islam is interchangeable with the God of Christianity and the God of Judaism, I can direct him to this and see what he has to say.

[Stark]

...but Allah is just a contraction of Al Ilah... the God. It's not a distinct name or concept.

This is a God-sized facepalm.

The fact that it was allowed with a disclaimer that it was 'not for muslims' suggest the real issue here is confusing muslims with christrian doctrine that uses the word allah.

[mr friendly guy]

I guess the next time a Muslim suggests to me that the God of Islam is interchangeable with the God of Christianity and the God of Judaism, I can direct him to this and see what he has to say.

My guess would by these people aren't "true muslims".

Come on, Christians use this type of argument all the time, so its only a matter of time before its copied.

[AniThyng]

No, the bad part is how are they going to enforce it? Are they going to require the religion of authors to be stated whenever they write something? Is it going to be code so that you know wheter a person is a Muslim or not by their writing?

I'm not sure if you read the article properly, but Stark has it more or less correct- the issue here is that the Islamic authorities think muslims are so stupid that they will convert to christianity or "be confused" if the Christian god is refered to as "Allah" in the malay-language section of the local Catholic newsletter. If I were refering to the Muslim god as Allah, there is no issue, even though I am not muslim.

[ray245]

No, the bad part is how are they going to enforce it? Are they going to require the religion of authors to be stated whenever they write something? Is it going to be code so that you know wheter a person is a Muslim or not by their writing?

I'm not sure if you read the article properly, but Stark has it more or less correct- the issue here is that the Islamic authorities think muslims are so stupid that they will convert to christianity or "be confused" if the Christian god is refered to as "Allah" in the malay-language section of the local Catholic newsletter. If I were refering to the Muslim god as Allah, there is no issue, even though I am not muslim.

It's like saying a protestant will get confused with Catholic's teaching referring to God as as a God in the protestant teaching.

Nevermind the retarded law that requires a Islamic court to recongise you changing your religion, which means in other words, you can't even change your religious affiliation to Nil or be known as an Atheist if you are born a Muslim.

[Samuel]

No, the bad part is how are they going to enforce it? Are they going to require the religion of authors to be stated whenever they write something? Is it going to be code so that you know wheter a person is a Muslim or not by their writing?

I'm not sure if you read the article properly, but Stark has it more or less correct- the issue here is that the Islamic authorities think muslims are so stupid that they will convert to christianity or "be confused" if the Christian god is refered to as "Allah" in the malay-language section of the local Catholic newsletter. If I were refering to the Muslim god as Allah, there is no issue, even though I am not muslim.

It's like saying a protestant will get confused with Catholic's teaching referring to God as as a God in the protestant teaching.

Nevermind the retarded law that requires a Islamic court to recongise you changing your religion, which means in other words, you can't even change your religious affiliation to Nil or be known as an Atheist if you are born a Muslim.

I think that has been illegal for a long time- it is called apostacy.

[PainRack]

It's like saying a protestant will get confused with Catholic's teaching referring to God as as a God in the protestant teaching.

Nevermind the retarded law that requires a Islamic court to recongise you changing your religion, which means in other words, you can't even change your religious affiliation to Nil or be known as an Atheist if you are born a Muslim.

Except that there is. It isn't unusual to see some Protestants holding some form of Catholic memes such as Purgatory.

As for the retarded law, in Malaysia, the courts are progressive enough that you can switch your religion to Christianity or other forms of religion......... Its just that so far, no one has tried registering themself as an Atheist. IIRC, Malaysia also got stuck with the "free thinker" label too, although I need An Thying to confirm that for me.

[AniThyng]

It's like saying a protestant will get confused with Catholic's teaching referring to God as as a God in the protestant teaching.

Nevermind the retarded law that requires a Islamic court to recongise you changing your religion, which means in other words, you can't even change your religious affiliation to Nil or be known as an Atheist if you are born a Muslim.

Except that there is. It isn't unusual to see some Protestants holding some form of Catholic memes such as Purgatory.

As for the retarded law, in Malaysia, the courts are progressive enough that you can switch your religion to Christianity or other forms of religion......... Its just that so far, no one has tried registering themself as an Atheist. IIRC, Malaysia also got stuck with the "free thinker" label too, although I need An Thying to confirm that for me.

I know for a fact it is possible to have your religion noted as "none" in your identity card, and in theory you could presumably put "atheist" if you so choose. You are correct that "free thinker" is the more commonly used catchall term for people with no specific religious affliation, and in practice of course, there's no doubt plenty of official buddhists who do not practice or have converted to christianity, and so on. The government generally does not negatively intervene in religious issues/disputes that do not involve Islam, which means everything I said before this is true only if you were not born into Islam.

When it comes to Islam, all I can say is muslims who wish to no longer practice have the option do basically just do it privately and pay whatever level of lip-service to islam they and their families are comfortable with...or migrate. Actually trying to leave islam legally is a difficult and trying process, and all cases so far have involved converts who wish to deconvert. People born into Islam who wish to leave rarely seek the legal option and merely cease practicing. Call it what you will, but unless Muslims take it into thier own hands politically to say they want a more liberal Islam, that's the way it will be.

[Kanastrous]

Is there much risk that never showing up at a mosque could attract unwanted attention? Is there any unofficial movement analogous to religious police?

[Darth Wong]

No, the bad part is how are they going to enforce it? Are they going to require the religion of authors to be stated whenever they write something? Is it going to be code so that you know wheter a person is a Muslim or not by their writing?

I'm not sure if you read the article properly, but Stark has it more or less correct- the issue here is that the Islamic authorities think muslims are so stupid that they will convert to christianity or "be confused" if the Christian god is refered to as "Allah" in the malay-language section of the local Catholic newsletter. If I were refering to the Muslim god as Allah, there is no issue, even though I am not muslim.

In western countries, we do the same thing, but it's so incredibly pervasive that the authorities don't need to enforce it. Everyone from news agencies to individuals in western countries has a strict policy of always referring to the Islamic God as "Allah" rather than "God" even though the terms should be interchangeable and are really just different languages' words for the same thing. And everyone obeys this rule because no one wants to openly challenge the common religious establishment.

That's how we roll in the West. We create lovely documents with high-minded rhetoric about freedom, and then we create informal socio-political rules which effectively make those documents worth less than the paper they're printed on. That's why you have to be Christian to be elected President in the US, and you have to follow rules like this.

[AniThyng]

Is there much risk that never showing up at a mosque could attract unwanted attention? Is there any unofficial movement analogous to religious police?

The answer really depends on your station in life and where you are? In a small town where everyone knows your name, it's definately going to attract a social stigma.

In the city, not so much, though your co-workers will know if you regularly skip the Friday prayers (from 12-2pm. For the rest of us, it's a extra long lunch break, for muslims, it's...well...it's like Sunday Mass? In fact the more conservative and heavily muslim eastern States have the workweek as sunday - thursday. The rest of the country observes standard monday-friday so friday is always a day with an extended lunch period for this). I am not aware of any legal penalties enforced on people who do not attend by either the secular or religious authorities, and many people do not always strictly adhere to the pray 5 times a day aspect, though most will attend the friday prayers.

Religious officials do not go around arresting women for not wearing headscarves, and muslims (abeit discretely) drink alcohol in public, in case you are wondering.

[AniThyng]

That's how we roll in the West. We create lovely documents with high-minded rhetoric about freedom, and then we create informal socio-political rules which effectively make those documents worth less than the paper they're printed on. That's why you have to be Christian to be elected President in the US, and you have to follow rules like this.

It's somewhat of a tangent to this point, but I feel it worth noting that the Westminster-style parliamentary democracy we inherited from the UK ensures that even with completely free and transparent elections, it is very difficult for minority parties / platforms to get a voice in government because there's simply no seat that you can win - 45% support across the board can still translate to 0% representation, etc.

Since the % of muslims who want to leave the religion publicly and legally is very small, and non-muslims generally are loathe to meddle in muslim affairs, and both spectrums of the political landscape are dominated by religious parties, I admit the political "democratic" route for change is difficult.

[PainRack]

Religious officials do not go around arresting women for not wearing headscarves, and muslims (abeit discretely) drink alcohol in public, in case you are wondering.

There is Khalwat, as well as backlash against celebrities appearing too scantily in FHM so sadly, their religious police still have some official power, especially in Kelantan.

I know for a fact it is possible to have your religion noted as "none" in your identity card, and in theory you could presumably put "atheist" if you so choose. You are correct that "free thinker" is the more commonly used catchall term for people with no specific religious affliation, and in practice of course, there's no doubt plenty of official buddhists who do not practice or have converted to christianity, and so on. The government generally does not negatively intervene in religious issues/disputes that do not involve Islam, which means everything I said before this is true only if you were not born into Islam.

When it comes to Islam, all I can say is muslims who wish to no longer practice have the option do basically just do it privately and pay whatever level of lip-service to islam they and their families are comfortable with...or migrate. Actually trying to leave islam legally is a difficult and trying process, and all cases so far have involved converts who wish to deconvert. People born into Islam who wish to leave rarely seek the legal option and merely cease practicing. Call it what you will, but unless Muslims take it into thier own hands politically to say they want a more liberal Islam, that's the way it will be.

I'm not up to date on recent cases, but there have been Malays converting to Christianity, and allowing to remain so post decolonisation, to the extent that a council was set up in Singapore as well as Johore to represent them. Granted, this was during the British era before Bumiputra set in.

[Edi]

Indonesia and Malaysia just recently banned yoga for its supposedly corrupting influence due to elements of Hindu religion contained in some of its practices. Not an official ban by law, but one issued by the religious Islamic councils.

[AniThyng]

Religious officials do not go around arresting women for not wearing headscarves, and muslims (abeit discretely) drink alcohol in public, in case you are wondering.

There is Khalwat, as well as backlash against celebrities appearing too scantily in FHM so sadly, their religious police still have some official power, especially in Kelantan.

Like I said, if muslims want to stand up for their right to not be arrested for khalwat, they should. Non-muslim voters don't care because it doesn't affect them - and Kelantan you'll find is at least not corrupt and ridden with ruling party money politics. Malaysia is not a police state - call it a failure of democracy if you like, but like I said above, this is a muslim problem, and it will take muslim political and social will to change it. The penalty for Khalwat is usually a slap on the wrist anyway.

[AniThyng]

Indonesia and Malaysia just recently banned yoga for its supposedly corrupting influence due to elements of Hindu religion contained in some of its practices. Not an official ban by law, but one issued by the religious Islamic councils.

Not all State Religious authorities moved to implement the ban, particularly after Sultans of important states like Selangor spoke up against it - after that it (the ban) has been quietly swept under the carpet and amended to "yoga is ok if not involving Hindu prayers/chants". Yoga centers still exist, yadda yadda. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised that enough prominent political and business leaders applied quiet pressure on the government to let this ban slide because they or thier spouses are practictioners. Or themselves run Yoga centers.

As an addendum to what I said above, not to say that non-muslim voters necessarily will not support measures to liberalize Islam, but in order for it to be anything more than a symbolic moral gesture, muslim voters themselves have to support.

[PainRack]

Like I said, if muslims want to stand up for their right to not be arrested for khalwat, they should. Non-muslim voters don't care because it doesn't affect them - and Kelantan you'll find is at least not corrupt and ridden with ruling party money politics. Malaysia is not a police state - call it a failure of democracy if you like, but like I said above, this is a muslim problem, and it will take muslim political and social will to change it. The penalty for Khalwat is usually a slap on the wrist anyway.

Shrugs. Malaysia religious sensibilities towards sex is better off than most other countries in the region anyway, I dare say the only other country which has a more sensible sexual attitude is Phillipines.

Its a tad better here in which "moral sensibilities" is attributed to, or so called sexual conservatism of the general populace, even though the reality is religous pandering to the Christian elite. I mean seriously, are they going to say that the Chinese populace, which allowed marriage and sexual relations as early as 14, mutiple sex partners for the males and allowances for prostitudes gives a shit about gays?
Their only conservatism is the NIMBY attitude and conservatism towards marriage and the infamous double standard of pre-marital sex for women.

[ray245]

Like I said, if muslims want to stand up for their right to not be arrested for khalwat, they should. Non-muslim voters don't care because it doesn't affect them - and Kelantan you'll find is at least not corrupt and ridden with ruling party money politics. Malaysia is not a police state - call it a failure of democracy if you like, but like I said above, this is a muslim problem, and it will take muslim political and social will to change it. The penalty for Khalwat is usually a slap on the wrist anyway.

Shrugs. Malaysia religious sensibilities towards sex is better off than most other countries in the region anyway, I dare say the only other country which has a more sensible sexual attitude is Phillipines.

Its a tad better here in which "moral sensibilities" is attributed to, or so called sexual conservatism of the general populace, even though the reality is religous pandering to the Christian elite. I mean seriously, are they going to say that the Chinese populace, which allowed marriage and sexual relations as early as 14, mutiple sex partners for the males and allowances for prostitudes gives a shit about gays?
Their only conservatism is the NIMBY attitude and conservatism towards marriage and the infamous double standard of pre-marital sex for women.

Hell, in regards to history, most people are fine with homosexual and bisexual to begin with, until the enlightenment period where the Europeans decides to export their version of morality onto other people.

Seriously, with people continuing to have this weird idea that Christianity is one of the most liberal religion around, it is not helping things.

[AniThyng]

It is pretty sad that the Victorian morality the europeans brought with them has such a hold over Asia in general - you see the same thing in Japan with regards to nudity in public baths for example.

In any case, back on the original topic, there may not have been a controversy at all if the Herald simply used "Tuhan", which is the generic Malay word for "God", as opposed to the Arabic "Allah" which foreign Islam has embraced as its own. (It is my understanding that Christians in the middle east do in fact use "Allah" to refer to Yahweh without issue...)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It is pretty sad that the Victorian morality the europeans brought with them has such a hold over Asia in general - you see the same thing in Japan with regards to nudity in public baths for example.

In any case, back on the original topic, there may not have been a controversy at all if the Herald simply used "Tuhan", which is the generic Malay word for "God", as opposed to the Arabic "Allah" which foreign Islam has embraced as its own. (It is my understanding that Christians in the middle east do in fact use "Allah" to refer to Yahweh without issue...)

I think to be frank here, the real problem lies in the fact that Malays in general have an inferiority complex, and couple that with UMNO's horrific defeats in the recent election and UMNO's legendary Malay Supremacy, UMNO is going around showing who's boss in Malaysia, and actively whoring to the Malay base, which is the only base they can rely upon now for electoral votes.

[AniThyng]

It is pretty sad that the Victorian morality the europeans brought with them has such a hold over Asia in general - you see the same thing in Japan with regards to nudity in public baths for example.

In any case, back on the original topic, there may not have been a controversy at all if the Herald simply used "Tuhan", which is the generic Malay word for "God", as opposed to the Arabic "Allah" which foreign Islam has embraced as its own. (It is my understanding that Christians in the middle east do in fact use "Allah" to refer to Yahweh without issue...)

I think to be frank here, the real problem lies in the fact that Malays in general have an inferiority complex, and couple that with UMNO's horrific defeats in the recent election and UMNO's legendary Malay Supremacy, UMNO is going around showing who's boss in Malaysia, and actively whoring to the Malay base, which is the only base they can rely upon now for electoral votes.

PAS has the rural/conservative malay vote, and PKR has part of the moderate vote. UMNO has votes as long as it has money. We shall see what happens. PAS has been more then happy to emphasize it is a Islamist party, not a Malay party par se, and so far it seems to be working. It's particularly galling to me that while I personally strongly disagree with PAS's Islamist platform, they have proven able to run a clean and efficient government in Kelantan and are so far doing well in Kedah and...Perak (current drama notwithstanding) and given the alternatives I have no real choice but to go along with it for the sake of toppling UMNO and BN.