Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Remember that grisly business from last July where the one bus rider killed, beheaded and then ate parts of his dead victim?

Well, a judge ruled that the perpetrator is not responsible:
Canada judge: Man not responsible for beheading

1 hr 20 mins ago

WINNIPEG, Manitoba – A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.

The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a mental institution instead of going to prison. The family of victim Tim McLean dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away with murder.

"A crime was still committed here, a murder still occurred," said Carol deDelley, McLean's mother. "There was nobody else on that bus holding a knife, slicing up my child."

The judge said Li should not be held criminally accountable for stabbing McLean dozens of times last July and dismembering his body while horrified passengers fled.

Justice John Scurfield said Li's attack was "grotesque" and "barbaric" but "strongly suggestive of a mental disorder."

"He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He believed he was acting in self-defense," Scurfield said.

Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of evil.

He will be institutionalized without a criminal record and will be reassessed every year by a mental health review board to determine if he is fit for release into the community.

DeDelley said a yearly hearing is ridiculous, and that Li should be locked up for the rest of his life.

Li's trial barely lasted two days and only heard from two witnesses, both psychiatrists, who testified he is mentally ill.

That Li killed the 22-year-old carnival worker was never in question at the trial. Li has admitted he killed McLean but pleaded not guilty.

Witnesses said Li attacked McLean unprovoked as their bus traveled at night along a desolate stretch of the Trans-Canada Highway.

An agreed statement of facts between the prosecution and defense detailed how passengers stood outside the bus as Li stabbed McLean dozens of times and beheaded and mutilated his body. Finding himself locked inside the bus, Li finally escaped through a window and was arrested.

Li then apologized and pleaded with police to kill him.

Police said McLean's body parts were found throughout the bus in plastic bags, and the victim's ear, nose and tongue were found in Li's pocket.

A psychiatrist called by the prosecution Wednesday testified that Li cut up McLean's body because he believed that he would come back to life and take revenge.

After the trial, government prosecutor Joyce Dalmyn said McLean's family understood that she had to tell the court about Li's condition.

"The evidence was so overwhelming that he was not criminally responsible. I absolutely had an obligation to bring that to the court's attention, and the family understands and respects that," Dalmyn said.

She said people who are mentally ill should not be convicted when they don't know what they did was wrong.

"They need to be treated," she said. "I certainly agree in Mr. Li's case he needs to be treated for a very long time."

McLean's family is vowing to turn their attention to fighting the law that allows people who are found not criminally responsible to be released into the community once they are deemed well, without serving a minimum sentence in jail.

DeDelley said her son didn't die in vain. His death highlights concerns about the justice system, she said.

"Now people are aware that there is a problem," she said.
I think this individual has proven he needs to stay locked up for a very long time indeed.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
Which should be irrelevant, because he still did it...
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Kanastrous »

No consideration of perpetrators' mental state at the time they committed their crimes, Ryan? You don't think that can affect culpability?
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Phantasee »

Man, Ryan, are you retarded? If they find you not criminally responsible due to mental illness, you don't get off and go home. They do lock you up - in an institution, so you can get the help you need. What good is it to throw the schizos into jail with the general population when we have facilities for them already? And the odds of him getting out are pretty slim. Odds are he'll end up in the institution longer than he would have gone to jail for, because they will not let him go until he's better to a level where he can function in society.

Irrelevant, my ass. :roll:
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by [R_H] »

What mental disorder(s) is he (or could be) suffering from?
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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[R_H] wrote:What mental disorder(s) is he (or could be) suffering from?
As an unqualified amateur, I'd hazard a guess that he could be suffering from schizophrenia. Whether my unprofessional guess is correct, I cannot say.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Well, the article says that both the defense and the crown argued that he was schizophrenic. Whether or not this is what the psychiatric professional told them or they were simply making pap disgnoses of their own, I don't know.

And Ryan, grow a fucking brain. Mental illness isn't some kind of clever legal maneuver that scheming lawyers exploit in a penal code softened by leftie legislation as appears to be the implication, it's serious fucking business and other than the family of the deceased, it's probably hardest on the accused himself.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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And what's wrong with being guilty but insane = mental institution, then prison if you get cured. As opposed to not guilty by reason of insanity = mental institution, then freedom if you get cured.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Flagg »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:And what's wrong with being guilty but insane = mental institution, then prison if you get cured. As opposed to not guilty by reason of insanity = mental institution, then freedom if you get cured.
Because due to your mental illness you are literally not responsible for your actions?
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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I fucking hate the idea of mental illness being a defence, Okay sure, that means the person should go to an institution, but it should be for life. I can’t stand the idea that some day they could be released on the word of some psychologist that they’ve gotten all better. Fuck that, if a person is so crazy as to commit a murder and not know it was wrong, that strikes me as being a far more dangerous person then someone who made a deliberate choice
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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Kanastrous wrote:No consideration of perpetrators' mental state at the time they committed their crimes, Ryan? You don't think that can affect culpability?
Does insanity affect their ability to do it again? No.
Sea Skimmer wrote:I fucking hate the idea of mental illness being a defence, Okay sure, that means the person should go to an institution, but it should be for life. I can’t stand the idea that some day they could be released on the word of some psychologist that they’ve gotten all better. Fuck that, if a person is so crazy as to commit a murder and not know it was wrong, that strikes me as being a far more dangerous person then someone who made a deliberate choice
Yeah, pretty much.
TithonusSyndrome wrote:And Ryan, grow a fucking brain. Mental illness isn't some kind of clever legal maneuver that scheming lawyers exploit in a penal code softened by leftie legislation as appears to be the implication, it's serious fucking business and other than the family of the deceased, it's probably hardest on the accused himself.
That's a nice strawman you've constructed there. :roll:

Insane or not, it doesn't change that he did it with his own two hands. It doesn't make him any less of a threat to society than he was to begin with.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by tim31 »

Martin Bryant got the insanity ticket and he is serving thirty-five life sentences. He is not eligible for parole. Surely the same conditions will apply here?
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by General Zod »

Flagg wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:And what's wrong with being guilty but insane = mental institution, then prison if you get cured. As opposed to not guilty by reason of insanity = mental institution, then freedom if you get cured.
Because due to your mental illness you are literally not responsible for your actions?
We generally lock up murderers because they're a danger to society and we want to separate them from the public. How does being insane suddenly remove the fact that their actions clearly demonstrate they're a danger to society?
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Phantasee »

I think you might be confusing this 'not criminally responsible due to mental illness' with what you see on TV and movies. He's not innocent, he's not acquitted. I suggest you learn something about mental illness, especially schizophrenia, before you start going on about a topic you clearly have little to no education in.

And FYI: NCRDTMI is one of the most difficult defences to pull off, in the Canadian justice system. It's not something that anyone can pull off, you have to actually be mentally ill.

I'll quote some of the relevant sections from my Criminology textbook when I get home, for your benefit.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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Sea Skimmer wrote:I fucking hate the idea of mental illness being a defence, Okay sure, that means the person should go to an institution, but it should be for life. I can’t stand the idea that some day they could be released on the word of some psychologist that they’ve gotten all better. Fuck that, if a person is so crazy as to commit a murder and not know it was wrong, that strikes me as being a far more dangerous person then someone who made a deliberate choice
I'm going to assume you have limited experience with, or interaction with, anyone with a mental illness, so I'll hand hold you through this;

Mental Illiness affects your behaviour, as you probably well know (anyone knows that really).
However, it's not like people think.

The best analogy for mental illness would be the hickups. You feel it coming on, you try your best to resist it, but it's going to happen, unless you find a way to stop it.

Hiccups are not a big problem short term. 5 minute of discomfort, and you're fine.

Mental Illness, however, is more like Chronic, long-term hiccups. Imagine trying to fight the hiccups every single second of your life. All of it, even while you are asleep.

Eventually, you're not going to be able to fight anymore. And you losing that battle can come out of nowhere.

Hell, with mental illness, the illness itself could come out of nowhere (again, like a hiccup).


Are the mentally ill dangerous? Depending on the illness, absolutely.
But, they are not culable for their own actions. Nor should they be unless that had previously been ordered to undergo treatment, and then aborted that treatment.


That being said, depending on the form of mental illness, and what the 'offender' in a particular case did, I'm not in favor of just releasing them once they have been treated and a team of psychologists considers them cured.

(FYI; In the case of criminal charges and insanity, the 'offender' must be certified as clear by a board of psychologists, not just the doctor.)

I'd like to see them go on a parole system, if they are not already, monitored by a psychologist that was not involved with their treatment. If the head-shrink sees any sign of regression, or similiar, but into the assylum they go for another round of treatments and evaluations.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Flagg »

General Zod wrote:
Flagg wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:And what's wrong with being guilty but insane = mental institution, then prison if you get cured. As opposed to not guilty by reason of insanity = mental institution, then freedom if you get cured.
Because due to your mental illness you are literally not responsible for your actions?
We generally lock up murderers because they're a danger to society and we want to separate them from the public. How does being insane suddenly remove the fact that their actions clearly demonstrate they're a danger to society?
Umm, we lock them up in institutions until a trained mental health professional can convince a judge (it's my understanding that a judge has the ultimate say in whether they are released or not) they are no longer a danger to society?
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Whether he would have done that "normally" or not is not the issue. The issue I have is that he was not in control of himself, and while he was not in control of himself, he committed this crime. That in and of itself clearly demonstrates that he is dangerous. Everything else is irrelevant. We don't put people in jail because we're angry at them for breaking the law. We put them in jail because they're dangerous in one way in another, and need to be separated from society.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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Ryan Thunder wrote:Whether he would have done that "normally" or not is not the issue. The issue I have is that he was not in control of himself, and while he was not in control of himself, he committed this crime. That in and of itself clearly demonstrates that he is dangerous. Everything else is irrelevant. We don't put people in jail because we're angry at them for breaking the law. We put them in jail because they're dangerous in one way in another, and need to be separated from society.
True; however, being committed to an institution for being lethally dangerous to other people (and potentially to himself) also effectively separates him from the rest of society. And it is very much possible that he will not leave that mental institution for the rest of his life, if the mental health experts do not deem him fit to do so; in prison, if given a limited sentence (even if it's several decades), he would one day walk out as a free man, or, if given a life sentence, only some higher authority could release him. And quite frankly, it is no different in that way from being committed to a mental health institution until such time he is judged to be of sufficient mental coherence to return to the society.

Being committed to a mental institution for violent crimes can, in effect, be a life sentence. One should bear that in mind.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Damn, Ryan, you are one stupid cock. Of course he's dangerous, both to himself and others. That's why he's being put into a mental institution, under guard, lock and key, until he's cured. Because, you know, once he is cured, that means that he won't be a danger to society anymore, because he won't be insane and liable to do this again. I mean, this isn't even Law 101 shit. We put them into institutions until trained professionals can determine that they're no longer suffering from whatever made them dangerous in the first place. What the fuck is wrong with that?
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Damn, Ryan, you are one stupid cock. Of course he's dangerous, both to himself and others. That's why he's being put into a mental institution, under guard, lock and key, until he's cured. Because, you know, once he is cured, that means that he won't be a danger to society anymore, because he won't be insane and liable to do this again. I mean, this isn't even Law 101 shit. We put them into institutions until trained professionals can determine that they're no longer suffering from whatever made them dangerous in the first place. What the fuck is wrong with that?
The problem with this position is it relies on his condition being curable. There are a lot of mental illnesses we just can't fix.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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"Until he's cured" suggests that if he's never 'cured,' he's never going to be released. Which keeps him under lock and key. Public safety served.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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Flagg wrote:Umm, we lock them up in institutions until a trained mental health professional can convince a judge (it's my understanding that a judge has the ultimate say in whether they are released or not) they are no longer a danger to society?

At which point they should begin serving their punishment for the crime committed, not simply released. Whether they knew right from wrong, or were "crazy" or not, they still committed the crime; they still are responsible for the crime; they still need to be punished for the crime.
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Phantasee »

Like I said, if any of you chucklefucks bothered reading, the odds are very good of him not getting out before he would have if he had been sentenced to prison, if at all.

So Zod, there's no 'problem' there, is there? If they keep working with him and on him, and he's not cured, then he's never getting out, is he?
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Kanastrous »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:
Flagg wrote:Umm, we lock them up in institutions until a trained mental health professional can convince a judge (it's my understanding that a judge has the ultimate say in whether they are released or not) they are no longer a danger to society?

At which point they should begin serving their punishment for the crime committed, not simply released. Whether they knew right from wrong, or were "crazy" or not, they still committed the crime; they still are responsible for the crime; they still need to be punished for the crime.
Seems that there's a problem with intent. If you don't know right from wrong, how can you form intent to commit a crime?
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Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Damn, Ryan, you are one stupid cock. Of course he's dangerous, both to himself and others. That's why he's being put into a mental institution, under guard, lock and key, until he's cured. Because, you know, once he is cured, that means that he won't be a danger to society anymore, because he won't be insane and liable to do this again. I mean, this isn't even Law 101 shit. We put them into institutions until trained professionals can determine that they're no longer suffering from whatever made them dangerous in the first place. What the fuck is wrong with that?
I'm not sure what issues you and Phantasee have with Ryan Thunder, but do you really need to bring your drama into this thread?

I don't know what legal statutes you're talking about, but if the new standard for crime and punishment is "until they are no longer a danger to society," then most criminals should be locked up for life, sane or not. Petty thieves only get a few months to a few years in prison, but repeat offenders are definitely a danger to society; using your logic, they should be receiving life sentences until "licensed professionals" decide they won't steal anymore.

And with regard to your "what the fuck is wrong with that" question; trained professionals could determine the guy to be cured and no longer a threat to society in six months. Is it really just to have a murderer "cured" and on the streets in six months, just because he was declared insane, while sane murderers spend decades in prison?
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